Crouch Fuzzy Guard Special State

Looking for the best technique to defend against El Blaze's Rocket Discharge options I found out that during a crouch fuzzy guard there is 1 frame of a special state where you are not standing nor fully crouching.

If you block El Blaze 4PK and he enters Rocket Discharge you can avoid both low & standing catch throw and at the same time be able to block the followup knee by doing a well timed crouch fuzzy guard.
The strange thing is that both catch throws are 15 frames.
(for a more detailed discussion on RD defensive technique take a look here)
So how is it possible to avoid both if they appen at the same time and to avoid a standing throw I need to be crouching while to avoid a crouching throw I need to be standing?

And on top of that, how is it even possible to be able to block the 16 frames knee?

If we take a look at the frame analysis of a crouch fuzzy guard we can see that it takes 5 frames to crouch in order to make a standing throw whiff.
From a level attack's point of view we are considered crouching from the very first frame (high blows will whiff) but for throws we are considered standing till the 4th frame.
At the 5th frame we are considered crouching for both attacks and throws so we can call it a fully crouching state.

After that it takes 2 frames more to regain a fully standing position where we are standing for both attacks (able to guard mid attacks) and standing throw (standing throw will connect).

What is left to look into is the 6th frame of the crouch fuzzy guard, the first frame we started rising up again.
To fully understand this particular frame of the cfg animation we need 2 examples.

1) Wolf vs Wolf

(in both examples when recording the dummy make a few backdashes so that you'll whiff everything)

Record Wolf doing 66K+G > 33G (it's important that you get the fastest crouch fuzzy guard possible).

Play it and with Wolf (dash in a couple of times to cover the dummy's backdashes) block 66K+G leaving you at +10, then do:
- Burning Hammer (a well buffered BH will come out in 16 frames)
- 6P (16 frames mid)
- 6K (17 frames mid)

if you did the cfg correctly you'll get:
- BH will whiff
- 6P will hit
- 6K will be blocked

From this we can get that during the 6th frame of a cfg from a standing throw's point of view we are not considered standing.


2) Wolf vs Kage

Record Kage doing P > 1P > 33G (cfg as fast as possible)

Play it ad with Wolf block the first P then mash something to get hit by 1P on CH leaving you at -6, then do a low throw.
Knowing that low throws start up in 0 frames Wolf's low throw will be active at the 6th frame of Kage's cfg.
If the cfg was done the correct way the low throw will incredibly whiff.

From this we can get that during the 6th frame of a cfg from a low throw's point of view we are not considered crouching.

So putting togheter both results we get that during the 6th frame of a (fastest) cfg we are in a special state where we cannot be grabbed by standing & low throws (but still hit by mids and lows).


Now looking back at the El Blaze's case we can understand why we are able to avoid both low & standing catch throws at the same time and still block the knee.
The two catch throw start in 15 frames while the knee is 16 frame, one frame slower: this means that if we timed our cfg as it reaches its 6th frame while the catch throws become active at their 15th frames than we'll be able to avoid both and still guard the 16 frames knee on the 7th frame of our cfg because we just regained a fully standing position.

 

This is something I am aware of for some time, but I never did proper research on it. If opponent do a "standardly timed fuzzy" vs wolf and do not screwed, you need to use "1-input" low throw or perfectly buffered 33p+g to catch him. If you do imperfect buffer of 33p+g, you will NOT catch him (unless he screwed) while you need to delay high throw for more then 1 frame to make it hit.
Tested in games vs ChiefGutti extensivelly

TBH I never searched for explanation nor reason of this, I just knew that if I am trying to kill fuzzy, 33p+g is not the way to go. I always tought it is just some basic mechanic I am not aware of while everyone else knows it so...

Good to know now

EDIT: I think it would be fair to add that till the moment I read post above, I always think about this 2 facts (1fk throw losing to fuzzy // 1fk lowthrow losing to fuzzy) as about 2 completely separated events and it never crossed my mind that as the result it means that there is part of fuzzyguard where you seems to be invulnerable to throws
Feeling stupid now

 

There's something about low throw being 0 frame I don't understand.
When my opponent is at -5, why I can punish his CD fuzzy Guard with my low throw ?
Does that mean that the low throw has a lot of active frames ? ( in that case, 10 active frames ? )

 

For low throw, the first frame is active. I don't know for the rest.

 

I don't know, if we are considered crouching from the 1st frame of CD fuzzy guard in a attack point of view and in a low throw point of view, the fact that we are able to low throw a CD fuzzy guarding opponent from -0 to -5 would mean that it has at least 5 active frames or... ?

Or because a low throw is 0 frame and no start up, it doesn't matter ?

 

During a CD fuzzy we are considered crouching (because of 33). I've made some tests

• between 0 and -5 LT is guarented
• -6 and -7 LT can whiff

I conclued the first frame is active . That's mean no start-up or quick start-up. In this case LT are probably 2 frames active.
But according to me AM2 has thought LT like an anti crouching position and invert active frame. High throws' active the last, low throws' active frame the first.
That's make sens for me.

 

I believe this is some system trick that at certain situations allows you to cancel crouch instantly with attack/movement but when you press G, it keep you "crouched" for prolonged period of time.
It is like after TR where if you just hold G, you can be lowthrown easily (the window is quite big ); but if you evade/dash, you can not be lowthrown at all. And it does not matter how perfect the timing of your lowthrow is.

I believe (not sure tough) that it works like this with attack (and TR) recovery; while the rules for movement are quite different.

 

This makes perfect sense - because for the throw purposes, it take you 5 frames to get from standing to crouching position when using CD (33). Because of this, if you fuzzy at -5 and better lowthrow will work; but if you CD at -6 an worse, it will whiff.
It have nothing to do with active frames of throw I believe; but in how long it take you to be considered "crouching" for the throw purposes.

 

My main problem here is that I don't understand what 0 frame means. Or in others words what would have changed if low throws were 10 fr like standing throws

 

0-frame throws where in vanilla where if opponent was -10 or more, your throw executed instantly (without the 10-frame animation of your hands reaching for him).
Back there it meant less time for multi-throw escapes.

If there will be NOW 0-frame throw that will work WITHOUT the -10 or more rule, it will mean you can not abare through it. What is definitely possible for low throws in FS.

 

Lol none of you have really answered me or didn't understand my question perhaps. Futhermore now I'm thinking about low throw guaranteed situation ( need -11 at least like some jumping moves what forces crouch and guarants a free low grab attempt) . I guess I will go for the (zero ) throw system explanation in vanilla: low throw have no start up animation but still need 10 fr to be 'guaranteed'

 

nice question kingo.
I will defenetly look in to that

 

Ok I did my research and gotta admit it the answer wasn't trivial at all.

I have posted a detailed explanation on the DIY frame analysis thread beacuse it is a quite long reading.
You can check it here.

So in the end a low throw
- starts in 0 frames if buffered
- has 10 active frames (plus the initial frame 0)
- connects only on a fully crouching opponent
- has a total animation of 36 frames

 

Awsome work dude. Thanks a lot

 

This may come as a bit late, but zero frame throw means that the throw has no execution frames, that it is active on frame 1 and onwards from there. "It has execution time of 0". So yeah, with this definition and G0dels test, lowthrows do appear to be like zero frame throws.

When someone says "10 frame throw", it means that the throw will be active on the 10th frame. Hmm. I guess zeroframe throws should actually be called 1-frame throws but I think zeroframe sounds more exciting

I hope this explanation helped.

ps. Im not entirely sure about all g0dels tests but I probably wont have time to dwell on this much until monday..

It is dangerous for me to comment in the morning without all my mental faculties.. but there seems to be some discrepancies here. (I haven't looked thru all your walls of text yet, sorry).

Firstly, if Wolf is -6 and buffers a low throw, then the low throw would go active on 7th frame obviously. As I explained above, nothing happens on frame 0, the wording just means that the throw has no execution frames, ie. is active on frame 1.

Secondly, crouch dash if Im not mistaken, counts to be in crouched state on frame 5... Combine both of these and it might mean that Kage in above test actually does a succesful fuzzy and is actually already back standing by the time wolfs lowthrow goes active, so lowthrow whiffs? I dont know exactly how you inputted these tests but this just looked like an error to me. (depends whether you kept crouching or not after fuzzy)

 

If you read the Low Throw Frames Analysis you can see at the very beginning why low throws are really 0 frame throws.