I'm not hardcore, but I miss old Goh in FS

Let me first explain that I'd probably be considered a scrub to a lot of you guys. I can't play as fast as a lot of you (which is one reason I chose Goh...that and he's just a badass...) and I can't think as fast as a lot of you (which translates into slower button inputs, etc.) and frankly, I'm probably too old to get into VF. As it is, though, I really miss old Goh and kinda disapprove of Sega turning him into VF's version of Miguel in Tekken 6. And this is coming from a Miguel player.

Things I miss specifically are:
1.) Goh's ability to turn someone's sidestep into a humiliating throw. It was always fun to try to and fake out an opponent to get them to sidestep right into that thing. Satisfaction.

2.) 6+p+k (iirc). I liked this as an option to stop uppercuts. Also, it's ability to fluster an opponent mentally made it's desperate use (in my experience) worth it.

3.) Clench + two movements. It was always fun to scare people with the ability to win by ring out with a clench. It's not as scary to them anymore.

4.) Over the shoulder throw. For ring out purposes to scare people.

5.) FSCW throw where Goh seemed to always punch women in the boobs. Awesome!

6.) Sweep is gone. Useful to me and my noob game.

7.) Trip is gone. Also useful to me and my noob game.

I don't know why they made Goh more offensive. I LOVE his attitude change in FS, but overall, they made him too much a puncher and kicker. While it's nice to have ability for extra combos as punishment, I don't think they should've removed/replaced as much as they did.

Also general engine changes I can't stand: Lack of offensive sidestep moves. WTF!? I don't know people's feelings about them, but I loved them. I also don't like that they seemed to have moved the game towards Tekken'ish gameplay. It almost feels like some weird offshoot of Tekken with escaping sidesteps with as much combos as I see online. And that bounce thing they stole from Tekken? F*** that...I like Tekken for combos and flashiness and I liked VF for the fact it was much more technical and mental and require much more concentration to even stand up to a marginally better player than yourself.

I read the post about Japan bashing VF5 in general and while I do like vanilla 5 a lot (just because I like the fact that Goh got a 3 hit string), I seriously had no idea what anything was said about frames, ARE, ETEG and all that stuff, frames, etc. I'm not so analytical about such things. I just know what felt right and VF5FS feels different. In a bad way.

That's all I got. Peace.

 

As another scrub I also don't like the new FS rebounce combos. Basically 1 wrong move and 50-65% of your already meagre lifebar is gone. Yes, you can P+K+G sometimes, but you're still at massive disadvantage, very vulnerable, and chances are you're going for another 50% damage ride.

I can do the rebounce combos (offline), btw. I just want less Tekken in VF.

I also miss "boring" old Goh. I mained him in VF4evo. I wish they made Boring Goh into another character. Maybe a straight-laced judoka with a balding head and glasses. xD
Or as a Goh ver.B...

 

I'll bite on the troll post before I pass out.

There is nothing "Tekkin-ish" about this game. It's a throwback to the old VF fused with the newer VFs and expanded upon. The Bound/Bounce was in VF5 before Tekken 6/TTT2/whatever, it's been expanded with 2 versions (small and big). Juggles and floats have been a VF mainstay since VF1. Being able to not attack from, and therefore, positinal tool of DM and OM in this version is a throw back to VF3, where there was not DM attacks and no OM at all.

With the damage output and positinal changes this is more like a combination of VF1 and VF3, but expanded upon.

The speed is between VF1&3/VF2&4 series.

 

I just wish to point out that 110-143 dmg combos are NOT common; and 110-143 dmg is that 50-65 % you are suggesting.
I also wish to point out that "exact recovery" was much more of an issue in old VF4Evo and that for example Jeffry was able to make 45 % juggle out of simple K if you failed it. Anyway, Jeffrys juggle damage was basically higher back there that anything you can see now...

I do not wish to argue about VF4/VF5 being better. I love Evo and I love FS and I enjoy both of them, each in different ways. There are things I do not like in FS for sure (bounces included) and I can easily understand you dislike other things that me...
I just wish to point out that 1) 50+ % juggles are not "common" thing in FS 2) 50+ % juggles (especially vs people who where not THAT good in VF) existed in Evo as well (and in my personal opinion, they where more of an issue)

 

I miss Evo Goh.

 

Two movements from tsukami was poop. You were giving the opponent two chances to escape + a chance to mash out of it for a possible payout of... average throw damage. There's a reason why people did tsukami to push to combo instead of throwing. Now throwing from tsukami is actually a viable, fun option. And tsukami 4P+G for ring out... just wouldn't happen, it's way too obvious.

He still has a back throw, by the way.

The only thing I kind of miss personally is his elbow to throw from VF5:R... but the coolness of chest stomp makes up for it.

 

Thanks for clarifying the VF4-VF5 changes etc. I feel even better about VF5FS now. (Yes I had a complaint against rebounce, but overall I still like the feel of VF5FS a lot.)

Not to be a troll, but that's the problem: I don't want "cool", I want JUDO.

I went thru command training for VF5FS Goh... and I lost the urge to main him. He who was my main in 4Evo.

 

It's because his style, even in VF4Evo (and much, much more pronounced now) is Judo+Yakuza instead of pure judo, which even in the highest dan levels, involves very few strikes.

That considered, he does use judo a lot. All his throws, except the awkward 4P+G, are real judo throws... Only that he frequently adds a bit of yakuza violence to them at the end in the form of headbanging, etc. Tsukami is the closest you'll have to the actual mechanics of a judo fight, having to pick a direction to throw them off balance before doing the throw, and that tsukami counter-throw they've added is not only cool, but also very resembling of the grab fights that occur in a real judo match.

Most of his continuation throws are not judo now, sure (but I can't complain when he gets the badass 4k, P+G stomp...), but he still has some, like 66K+G, P+G.

 

I like the new goh in terms of playstyle but I really miss some of his old throw animations

 

Goh Fine.

 

If your JUDO teacher teaches you shoulder rams, back stomps, elbow strikes, kicking the crotch for ooguruma, kicking the belly for sumi gaeshi, kicking the face after kouchi-oouchigari combination, punching the opponent on the ground, guillotine/neck cranks and body scissors... you may want to double-check his credentials.

And that's all from his EVO movelist.

My point, Goh was never about judo. He's always been a bad boy brawler, who uses his judo training to stomp people. Vide: first paragraph of my post. It's okay to like him or not, but if you want JUDO, then... sorry, it's barking under the wrong tree. VF has never had a pure judo fighter. Hell, he doesn't even tie his belt right.

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Personally I really like it that the old tachidori (old 270f+P+G) is gone and replaced by an actually judo-like takedown for his strongest throw, and Goh has many moves where he's using strikes to sneak in an oosotogari. Guillotine is also replaced by uki goshi, techniques that are nearly impossible to do without uwagi are replaced by more sensible ones (ganseki otoshi and juuji jime gone) and his wall throw is an amazing "realistic" cross seoi nage. Goh has always been a brawler, now his brawling is showing his experience... and there's way more (realistically implemented) judo technique there than any popular fighting game seems to have. Reversing throws into his own grab? Thumbs up, AM2. Someone over there knows their stuff.

 

Oh, INDEED. That bugged me a lot, among so many judo throws, the strongest had to be the one that doesn't use judo at all.

 

Goh is one of the Least changed most improved Characters in FS. Attribute it to your lack of expoerience in the game, but he has more hit throws, his hit throws are way easier now, He has several more strikes and strings that have huge hit-boxes. It's like Goh went up in tier in this game. He lost his 270 degree throw , fine . I mostly did that move just to show off to people than I could nail them with it at any time. The main change about Goh now is that he has no throws that end in DF or DB. That's not that big a deal. The only negative I can see so far is he maybe lost his Knee sabaki. I'm not even sure so I won't sound off about it. He may still have a move that sabakis knees, it is just not DB P+K anymore. (1P+K). Love that record feature in Dojo. I'm going to set it up and find out.

 

@hseiken1 and Mlai

Please, no need to ingratiate yourselfs as scrubs here. There are all levels of players on this site. We all have areas of improvement, we're all constantly learning. For every advanced player there is a more advanced player for every player who only knows a little, there's someone who likes the game but knows even less. 'Drop your scrub designation'

The realism in VF is not so much simulation as it is a kind-of-emulation. Goh's Judo is not real, but its meant to make you feel it could be real. The designers want Goh's moves to be believable (not necessarily authentic). There are no arcade fighting games that will give you authentic Judo.

If that's what you really want please try UFC Undisputed 3. Judo is one of the styles in that game, and some of the grapples, trips, and throws are very much Judo. And with each version of the game, the number of Judo moves grow.

I Personally think VF is the best arcade fighting game on the planet. But when I want a true martial arts simulation , there is nothing better than UFC 3 Undisputed. Tekken, DOA, VF don't
even come close when comes to realism in comparison.

 

I also miss the old vanilla Goh.
There is something bugging me in this FS version. I don't know, I think for me is the combination of the new "yakuza" crazy attitude and the stupid, annoying laugh (for instance, 4+k, k+g). I personally prefer his (maybe more boring) preciser, cleaner movements and style of the past, as I figured him as the perfect assassin instead of a yakuza brawler.
Just my opinion on his appearance, not gameplay/strenght etc.

 

I'm not sure where exactly Goh lies on the latest tier list, but he does not seem as good as most of the other characters, but maybe people always feel that way about their character.

VF5 version C Goh had a bunch of excellent moves they took out in R and FS. Like, where are all his mid>mid strings? The old 6PP, 6P+K> P and 4K,P were all really useful, the new 3PP is ok but old 6P,P and 6P+K were more useful.

Making his old 66P+G into a hit throw was a huge nerf too.

 

Well... the "perfect assassin" Goh never really existed to be honest. His speech patterns, win poses, looks (piercings, scars, gaudy hair and gi), items, some moves (3P+G anyone? Or even hcb P+G, or shoulder ram) have always been those of a yakuza-like bully. It always seemed to me like his "stiffness" in VF4: Evo was more the result of AM2 still wondering how to make a "believable judo assassin" (answer: "for the time being, let's make a throw-focused Akira clone with weak striking") rather than wanting to make him clean-cut. He's always had the attitude.

Sure, it only escalated in VF5, but it was always there. I like to think he simply got the hang of things after the whoopping he received in previous tournament... and relaxed a bit more.

 

First, I'm not deliberately trolling. Based on the responses, it seems that being scrub was not understood. So let me reiterate: I suxxors, terminology for the most part is lost on me, if you start quoting actual move names, I'll definitely be lost before you can say "Round 1".

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There is nothing "Tekkin-ish" about this game.
[/quote]

I realize there was 'bouncing' in VF combos, it's the new animation when head forward/face down with a downstrike that smashes the character into the ground causing them to bounce up onto their knees for an easy extra 3-4 hits, ala Tekken's bounce system. Granted, it requires specific things to happen, but most of the online players I've faced have gotten it to a science. It seems to happen on walls much easier than in an open area, but some players that use, say, Jeffrey or Wolf seem to be able to pull it off rather easily. In terms of 'timeline' between Tekken and VF, I'm only stating the US releases of the games, as that's where I'm from. I don't pay too much attention to what Japan has as that's not where I live, and thus those games won't even be available to me. I remember being very distraught seeing youtube videos of VF4:FT forever and then never being rewarded for my interest with a wide stateside release. *cry*

But overall, after I read there were 18 versions between the current FS and vanilla VF5, it made much more sense as to why it felt like a completely different game when I played it for the first time a couple of days ago. It's a huge contrast to very 3d-centric stepping of VF4 and vanilla VF5 to this version which feels like they made the game to focus on being more aggressive overall. Which, I guess is cool because it is a fighting game. Some sort of aggression is required. It just feels like it moved towards Tekken in terms of that simplicity because...well, I don't know why. I understand combos are a part of the game, but that feels in this version that combos are the meat and potatoes of the game, and less strategy and movement are involved. I didn't used to practice juggles in VF4EVO because they weren't necessary. Now in order to feel like I have some sort of chance, I'm practicing juggles...something I only ever did in Tekken.

The way I explain Tekken vs. VF to many people: Tekken is checkers, VF is chess. It just seems that VF5FS has a little more checkers in it than I'm used to.

To others, I'm not complaining about the lesser realistic Goh. The fact he can punch someone into the air and then hit them and keep them in the air isn't realistic, so who am I to split hairs about realistic Judo throws? I was just missing a couple of the animations, regardless of their realism. I don't study or practice martial arts so authenticity isn't necessary for me to enjoy it.

@Jigohro - I'm aware of his other shoulder throw, but it doesn't move the opponent as much as the one where he just slings the dude by the arm like a guy hauling a sack of potatoes into a pickup. Also, I agree...I miss the elbo->throw from older games too. The stomp is cool, I guess and it's purpose is the same.

As far as other Goh specific stuff, I'll start mulling over the Goh board. I'm going to try and pick up Jean as my sub...he seems interesting with his fakes and followups...

 

As someone who's been using Goh since the beginning, I really like this new version because they finally gave him some good combos. In VF4Evo he was probably the worst character in the game. 46P didn't launch on normal hit! He didn't even have PK string! This dude was trash! All he had was a few shitty 3 hit juggles. Fuck that.

Defensively he's a little bit better because 46K sabakis knees now in addition to the mid/high kick, which I think is a major upgrade. Low parry doesn't go under highs anymore, so I consider that to be a nerf but the good thing is that it now parries low kick as well as low punch.

I like the direction they went with the fighting style, so it doesn't bother me that they've made him into more of a brawler. He still has the Judo throws in there, but they're just giving him a nastier personality in his attacks, which is the way he should be.

 

Still missed it. Bounce was in Vanilla VF5 which came to the U.S. It's been re-animated.

Juggles have been in VF since 1. They are guaranteed damage and always have been. You should've been practicing them before as now.

This game has never been reaslistic. AM2 does an awesome job of showcasing the martial arts it represents, but it's still not realistic.

The bolded part is because you don't know VF, that's why it feels like Tekken to you. That's not meant to make you sound like a "n00b", it's just people have always had this "VF is realistic, Tekken sux bcuz it haz juggles,lol!!1!" mentality about the game, due to a lack of knowledge. This gets recycled because people who try to act like they know something about VF state this as well(ie VF-Fanboys/Girls), and people take their words for it, since they don't care to either way to know.


I feel VF is more Go than Chess. My comments aren't here to attack you, but just enlighten you so hopefully you can enlighten others.