Is Aoi playable with only reversals and grapples?

I'm trying to decide on who to use as my second character and I'm leaning towards Aoi since I was using her before deciding to go with Sarah and because I want to use a character with grapples.

I was thinking of using Wolf as well, but I just don't like the character of Wolf.

So my question is, can Aoi be effective if I will mainly be using grapples with reversals or does she rely on combos to do most of her damage?

I know how to use her somewhat since I played casually with her for a while, but I find her combos to be very hard to pull off, especially compared to Sarah who has a lot of easy combo starters. Yet when I watch gameplay video of her on youtube, everyone is doing combos and rarely use the grapples.

What does everyone think about this?

 

Aoi has a decent throw game (one of the better ones, in Vanilla), but to play by only using throws and reversals is going to be a fruitless attempt unless you can literally read minds or you can slow the passage of time down considerably so you can see and reverse on reaction.

Aoi's damage (if you can call it that), comes from her pokes (punishers), throws, and mindgames (through cancels, they're good, but not great like they are in R-FS). Reversals can be on that list, but you'd only be putting yourself at risk if you aren't playing against a very predictable player.

I'm not saying "don't use them," but rather they shouldn't be one of the pillars or foundation of your game.

Learn to use you many cancel strings (some are delay-able as well) and mix in throwing after a cancel, using a quick attack to beat counter attacks ( is an excellent mid, that goes under a lot of attacks even when in disadvantage), or if you have guts go for something bigger or do another cancel to reset the mind-fuck.

Now, if your opponent is extremely predictable or through your reactions you know you can elicit a reaction, you can reverse it, but aside from reversing rising kicks (the full circ kind), reversals don't give that much pay-off damage-to-risk-wise. Better off just setting up a launcher if you know they'll attack/fail-evade or throw their ass if they block.

While Aoi doesn't have the damage that most other characters have, and if she goes in the air she'll take a lot of damage, those -cancels give her an edge in psychological-warfare.

 

The answer is NO (with provisions).

Its pretty easy to see when someone is trying to do that kind of nonsense with Aoi. You're not the first to try. Once you recognize it, beating that strat is no problem.

However, in my first tournament (back in VF4:Evo days) Aoi was my main character. I had a round during the finals where I did nothing but reverse and throw. There was 2 reasons for this: 1) I was playing against an Akira player and I knew his timing very well, and 2) I really wanted to slow him down and make him think more about every action. I needed to take away his greatest weapon, which was his instinct. So I turned his instinct into a liability. I didn't reverse at all for the rest of the match, but that one round threw him off enough for me to take victory.

But really, no. You can't win without pokes. There's no mixup to only using reversals and throws. Any character in the game could easily take that strat apart, and any player (aside from a first year, maybe) could see right through it.

Plus, its a lot more boring to use than you'd think. It seems like you'd come off like some psychic bad-ass, but really you just look like a pussy who's too afraid to attack

 

If you were only going to stand there and try to reverse or grab, I would hit you once low the entire match and then duck to win. Aoi is best played IMO as a blended character of defense and offense. Nearly every match you watch with Aoi, you'll see YY, which is tapping 4PKG, as a defensive measure. You'll also see an Aoi player use cancels that lead to grabs or continued attacking. Aoi also has useful moves that are designed to be used on opponents who're in the middle of attacking you.

Unlike some characters, Aoi's attacking and combos aren't very strong. Her punch speed is equal to Jeffry and Wolf. Her strength is in guessing games and that makes her difficult to use for some. The newest person to use Aoi in the forum is Tripsem so you can ask him for some advice if you can catch him on live or the forum.

 

Talk to Kingo about Aoi. She can deal some big damage on walled stages. And because of her cancels and the threat of YY she can really dicatae the flow of a round when she starts pressuring you.

Don't try and play without attacking. That's just stupid.

 

Alright, maybe I could have worded the topic title better. I don't mean that I will do nothing except reverse attacks. I notice most people don't really use her grapples on reversals and I'm wondering if its viable to use grapples and reversals as the primary attack rather than regular attacks.

Since I have trouble with her combos I usually rely on simple combos and attacks to pressure the enemy and then try to catch them with reversals when they attack back. I also throw in grapples since they do decent damage. What I want to know is if this sort of style is viable or not.

I would never play without attacking. If the enemy is on the ground for example I'm not going to wait for them to get up, I'll try a ground throw.

 

The reversals are not great. We have this exact same topic every few months when a new player wants to learn Aoi. Aoi has good throws and you should definitely be using them. However throws are largely set up by making someone want to defend against attacks.

Don't try to learn a character with the wrong mindset or a plan of how you're going to play, your play won't evolve as you learn more about the character and it will ultimately hurt your game.

 

Alright, the problem might be that I'm seeing reversals as her main strength when in fact they are not that good.

So far they've been pretty useful for me but I only have the ai to play against, no human competition.

I'll try to play with her without using the reversals and see how well I do.

 

Turn the difficulty up as high as it goes. That's as close to Human comp as you'll get with the AI. Humans will see that you're using reversals and all they have to do is slow down their attacks and they can punish you huge.

 

Like everyone above me has said, Aoi cannot win with grapples and reversals alone. If you rely heavily on reversals you'll be eating counter hits every time. They shouldn't be used unless you are 100% positive that the next move will be a high, mid, or low. That said, reversals are low reward anyway. If you can guess that a launcher mid was coming next, a block then punish would potentially have been much more damaging.

You can't rely on Aoi's throws because her highest damaging throw, Chou Garami (+) can be escaped easily and Kirie Otoshi (+) will be throw escaped easily by experienced players. That leaves you with Tai Boku Kudaki (+ -> +) as her strongest throw at 60 dmg. An experienced player reduces this damage with just ukemi (tech rolling after her kick) to 55. It may seem like a small amount to worry about but every point of damage counts with Aoi. Oboro Guruma (+) is a good mix up throw but pales damage wise because a ground throw can be escaped and a down attack cause a total of only 52 dmg. It is still a good option due to it being an angle direction throw but other throws deal more damage and in FS its damage has been reduced. Han Getsu Ha + is another great mix up throw since it will almost never be escaped. It's used mostly for positioning and does modest damage. Just don't use it when your opponent is near the edge of an open ring or you'll get a ring out!

This leaves her combos. At first they may seem troublesome but they are rather simple. Her Sode Shin Ken's (+) follow up is very simple. is the staple combo that lands on any character regardless of weight. Jou Sei Ryuu Sen Shou (+) uses that combo too. Sou Un Ha's () staple combo is on all characters. Sou Shou Da (+) uses the same staple combo. As you begin with Aoi try to stick to these combos. When you become more accustomed to her moves check out her other combo options on this site.

More appealing options with Aoi are her sabakis and safety with her YY Stance (++. This is changed to just ++ in FS). Shin Chu Zuki (+) will save you a buttload of times. This is because it starts at frames 3-13. So for example lets say you use +. If blocked it will leave you at -6. Some expert players may anticipate a forward crouch dash into fuzzy guard and attempt an elbow or low throw (vs. Jeff, Wolf, Aoi, Vanessa, or Goh.) An inexperience player might think it hass put you at a large disadvantage and try a 'free' . + will catch both. This due to it's early frame sabaki (Elbows are 14f and at -6 the sabaki takes 9f to start. This also means that the 12f will be too slow) and you're given a free combo. Be warned though, it leaves her at -9 on block (I'm pretty sure this has been changed to -13f in FS so it is EXTREMELY risky, if anyone can confirm this, it's much appreciated) and can put you in an unwanted situation. Her other sabakis are extremely useful when you learn how to properly use them but try to start off slow.

Her ability to go into YY stance from a large amount of moves is extremely useful. Her Kusanagi (+) leaves you at a large -18 on block. Going into YY stance nullifies this but also puts you in danger of being thrown. You can counter this by pressing or and inputting a side throw escape ( or depending on the direction you pressed.) Be very careful though since all that effort can be destroyed by a well timed launcher. She has many other 'into YY Stance' moves like + but is rarely used because it puts you into a similar situation as + and if + hits and you go into YY Stance, you've just lost a combo chance.

Using all of this during a match is key. Without her strikes and combos, Aoi would be nothing more than a punching bag. But without her throws and reversals, she wouldn't be one of the best defensive characters in the game. Take it easy when learning Aoi. It takes time to get these things down pat and use it efficiently in matches. If you ever want to see an expert Aoi player, try messaging Kingo, he'll gladly go for a few matches. I use Aoi too (started in March) and I have yet to master most of these things. Don't be discouraged though! Winning with Aoi feels like one hell of an accomplishment every time and her mind games can be really fun to use.

 

I'd pretty much echo what sebo and others have already said. You see some online Aoi's online where it's really become a crutch for them, you can pretty much stand there when you're at advantage then watch them spamming the reversal animation. It's quite funny to watch though I should probably start to use a delayed launcher or throw on them instead of just stand there laughing at them.

You never really see the good Aoi players like Kingo or folks from vids using them like that, they can be good as a punisher though. Some attacks you can reverse the follow ups like Akira's ~ and +, if you block the first hit of these attacks then you'll get a free reversal if your opponent does the second hit

 

If you are looking for a character that doesn't rely much on his combos and has an affinity for throws and combat tricks such as inashis and sabakis to intercept his opponent's attacks, you may want to give Goh Hinogami a shot.

 

Aoi's Chou Garami and Kirie Otoshi are her most damaging throws therefor her most feared throws when going against her. Beginners usually start with one or two escapes anyway and in FS it's going to be changed to only one.

I'm not intentionally discounting them, it's just better to give people trying new characters some bare essential information on learning Aoi.

 

What do you mean changed to one? In FS you just input 1 throw escape and it covers you against all throws?

 

You can only input one throw escape in FS so no multiple TE. The amount of throw directions has been reduced to three though so you've got a one in three chance of guessing right

 

Exactly. In Final Showdown the throws are , , and neutral. So they reduced the amount of throw directions but now you can only input one throw escape just like ground throw escapes.

 

Wolf has the 100 point BH and the PGS on the same direction. That almost makes his other throws free. Muhahaha.

I though 1 and 3 P+G were low throws now?

 

Aoi's use reversing as a defensive technique. The unique part of her game is she can even reverse double handed and full circular attacks. Almost every good damaging combo starter is a mid attack so mostly you'll catch Aoi's doing things like RDTE or buffering in YYTE's. This is how an Aoi starts to force the opponent to do things like delayed launcher and most of the time opponents won't punish correctly.

I tend to RDTE at a disadvantage, like after I get hit by 2p, because I know most opponents are going to mid attack or try and throw. I used this to train my speed of input and also to condition the opponent not to immediately mid attack after 2p. A lot of people have a hard time against Aoi's who properly use reverse and YY because you've thrown off the normal speed and patterns of the player. I agree with Feck that the use of reversals is awesome in follow up attacks.

Here's a video of how I work this in:



At 00:51 I completely whiff an attack so I enter YYTE and the YY works, at 1:04 after getting hit by 2p, I entered RDTE and the TE works, at 1:33 wolf escapes my grab attempt so I CD guard see nothing, then I try to reverse and it whiffs so I enter in YY. I mentioned this sequence because I appear to be the aggressor, but in reality I was thinking defense the whole time and trying to take damage from the R and YY defensive techniques. To end the match at 1:53, I blocked a 2p and tried to 2p back too slowly and I got counter hit by 2p instead, so I enter RDTE to catch the mid attack. If wolf tried to surprise exchange me into the wall or GS me for the R.O. I should have escaped.