More Evo Jeff and Pai stuffs

Don't know if any of this was mentioned already, but i just want to spark some more discussion and solicit input from folks that are a lot better than me...

OK, so it seems that ++ on a hit will cause a stagger that allows for a guaranteed throw (in practice mode, with the right timing the throw is comboed... i.e. you get the 35 pts for the heel drop, then the x amount you get for the followup throw, the total with an XPD reading 105 on the screen). Does this mean the throw is inescapable?

,++ has decent range and sets up nicely for the whole stun>>low throw thing Jeff has got going with lots of his moves. Actually, i'm suprised i haven't seen this used more in the vids.

Choke slam seem like a whole lot of trouble to go through for not much return.

++ seems to hit more reliably, and since Jeff ends up on his back at the end of it, a whiff or a block doesn't get him punished with throws... seems to hit earlier in the animation than in VF4.

Threat stance seems to have a slight delay added before anything comes out. Maybe that's just me.

Onto Pai...

Semms like the gets the award for "most improved character". She is such the queen of stagger. In fact, she can make th opponent look downright silly at times.

,++ sets up nicely for low throw... and in general her throws seem to set up for combos better than her stagger reversals.

,+, however, seems totally useless.

From her low stance, + does butt stun on crouching opponents, as opposed to float. Unfortunately, Pai doesn't have anything with range to follow up with. Am i missing something? I get this stun fairly often after a bit of conditioning... so how do i get it to pay off?

That's all i've got. Feel free to add anything (please). Discussing this game is almost as fun as playing it.

 

I don't know if this is a true combo (I haven’t thoroughly tested it out) but my bro. found this for Pai. On MC - + , + , . You might be able to stagger out of this though.

 

the throw is not inescapbable (only catch throws are) and the + always guaranteed a throw on counter hit in version C of VF4. The point of + is basically to stagger your opp, who blocks it instead interrupting it, to set up a guessing game.

Also with Jeff only having 3 low throws you only have a 33% chance at best of landing one against a player with the presence of mind to escape them. I haven't tested b,df p+k, but low throw setups are almost not worth the time imo.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Aeon said:
From her low stance, + does butt stun on crouching opponents, as opposed to float. Unfortunately, Pai doesn't have anything with range to follow up with. Am i missing something? I get this stun fairly often after a bit of conditioning... so how do i get it to pay off?

[/ QUOTE ]

In Version C, a high K was a decent followup - struggleable but difficult. In Evo, I find this misses a bit more.
With regards to staggering with Pai. Here's the deal - when you stagger someone, from any move (inashi, ff+K, stumbling trip, etc) your opponent is going to be struggling right? Well, use this as an opportunity to play severe mind games with them. Dash in and P-->throw. Do a charge attack (df+PK). Sweep. Mix it up and make your opponent scared of being staggered.

cheers,

 

[ QUOTE ]
when you stagger someone, from any move (inashi, ff+K, stumbling trip, etc) your opponent is going to be struggling right? Well, use this as an opportunity to play severe mind games with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

As someone who is regularly on the receiving end of this I can say that the mind games are Pai's strongest weapon. I'd much rather play Llany's Akira, or Wolf. Just the thought of fighting his Pai makes me upset.

foo,
kbcat

 

emx already mentioned f+K+G guarantees a throw on hit. It staggers on guard too but nothing is guaranteed, play the knee-or-throw guessing game.

isn't b,df+P+K the new gigantic floating uppercut?
Jeff has other force crouch moves, but force crouch moves come in two flavors - those that guarantee low throws and those that do not. 90% of them do not, the opponent can just low punch out of the low throw. Also, a dodge will put them in a standing position instantly and also avoid attacks, so an opponent who dodges or dodges+throw escapes can get out of almost any followup (that's prolly why you don't these moves in the arcades of japan as much).

If jeff is lucky enough to have a force crouch move that guarantees a low throw (like goh's b+P), the opponent can still get out by entering multiple low throw escapes. It's possible to enter escapes for all three of his low throws if you have fast hands. But that's still good because the opponent MUST escape and that sets up a true knee-or-low-throw guessing game.

Choke slam is pretty good damage for a decently quick little pokey punch.
I'd see if you can work it in anytime the opponent is disadvantaged but wants to attack (like after a block rising kick for example).

uf+K+G isn't totally safe, generally an u+P pounce works on attacks that leave you grounded if they're not blocked (that's 25 pts). You can also block the move and hit with any move that scrapes the floor like some knees, bodychecks, low kicks, shun's df+P (you'll get away with several of these), etc.

I have nothing on pai except that from a stagger, a kick is good if they can't struggle well... and if they can, a guessing game between the new backturned cartwheel or throw will make them cry.

 

Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

[ QUOTE ]
isn't b,df+P+K the new gigantic floating uppercut?

[/ QUOTE ]

The gigantic floating uppercut is ++. ++ is the new force crouch move that you see jeff players do for the face grab-of-doom combo on Brad, Lau, Lion, and Pai. ( Threat Stance - ++ - ++ - )

I don't know if Jeff's ++ guarrantees a low throw on normal or counter hit. But he does have two other force crouch moves, and both have guarranteed throw situations. ++ will guarrantee a low throw on counter hit, and ++ with guarrantee a low throw on normal, or counter hit -- it's a very slow move though.

The MC properties of the ++ move may have changed in EVO, but I'm fairly certain about the ++ always guarranteeing a low throw.



cheers,
kbcat

edit: corrected input of the facegrab-o-doom to avoid confusion

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

Positive that all three can't be punched out of? Because people tend to just hold guard and eat the low throw, or even enter low throw escapes... not realizing they can just low punch out of it in a lot of cases. For example d+P+K only gives +6 on MC, so I'm pretty much positive an 8 frame low throw isn't free. b,df+P+K shows +5.

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

No low throw is ever guaranteed unless an attack is blocked and the character recovers low with at least -8 frames. (-13 frames if you are up against vanessa)
/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

I have no idea about ++. If ++ is only +6 then it's not guarranteed. But, ++ is guarranteed (1/60th list it as +10 on all hits).

So, at least one out of three gives a guarranteed low throw.


cheers,
g.

 

+Also don't forget that your opponent will eventually start to escape both of the low throws after +. If they start to do double low throw escape, for most people the ++ and ++ motions will cause the character to produce high punches, low punches, or low throw animations. Then you can do + MC, low throw (you can add more + if they try to low throw escape again) for huge damage or MC, float combo for big damage. Once you start doing this, the opponent might not attempt low throw escape, and you can start low throwing again. Here's my question: Is it possible for the opponent to Evade-double low throw escape after + and avoid both the low throws and any non-circular attacks? I'm assuming it is, in which case Pai should high throw I suppose.

Also, after stance +, you can also do , or just the single swallow. It's hard to struggle out of, and will hit people who duck after struggling to avoid high throws.

I wouldn't say that is useless. You can use it in the situation above with + when the opponent tries to low throw escape. +, MC, , does 100+ damage, I think (though, the can be struggled out of, but is hard).

Oh yeah, also, after ++, a lot of times I back dash and then do buffered for the BT kickflip. I know if the opponent blocks that Pai has the advantage and BT is uninterruptible. What about BT and BT +?

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

Replying to Jeffry stuff in general:

- The big upper cut is +...+ is his headbutt.

- + always guaranteed a low throw on hit. At least since Version C.

- + catch throw should only be used in guranteed situations. If at an advantage and if you think the opponent will attack anyway, a knee or is better.

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

somone mentioned after + (on hit and blocked stagger) that ++is guaranteed..is this true?

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

Afaik, the choke hit throw is guaranteed after Threat Stance --> P+K on MC.

++,+ (MC) --> +,+

cheers,

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

Definitely not on stagger or normal hit. I'm not sure about MC but I doubt it: in Version C + gave 13+ frames, and + should be more than that.

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

not true, goh has one of the sega 'special exception' moves - b+P. It truly guarantees a low throw on MC (not because it's +10 but because sega said 'throwing someone during the b+P hitstun is allowed). db+K MC from goh also does if I recall correctly. Again both are MC only, and both are truly guaranteed low throws (the opponent can enter a low throw escape but may not avoid it by attacking).

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

re: knee or upper being better than the hit throw outside of guaranteed situations -

since the hit throw is 15 frames (same as the upper, faster than the knee), only -5 if blocked, and guarantees 65 pts on any hit assuming you have the timing for the hit throw... you sure?

One player suggests it's a good way to get guaranteed punishment vs a failed evade. I'll admit I haven't played with this much in evo, but on paper it looks pretty nice.

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

Well, it is a high attack.

 

Re: Jeff force crouch moves that guarrantee low throws.

[ QUOTE ]
- The big upper cut is +...+ is his headbutt.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. I meant ++.


cheers,
kbcat