REVO / US 2.1 Goh discoveries and testing

Just trying out some of the bigger changes quick.

Old 3P+K sabaki against mid punches and mid elbows is back. +13 on success and (at least on Taka) throws reach from both stances. Can also of course do PK for a guaranteed follow-up.

We now have both the FS 2/8K+G and the vanilla versions 2/8P+K. Not sure why since they're more or less the same move but I guess time will tell if this "new" move will have improved evade frames or something. Both do same damage. "New" 2/8P+K has one frame less advantage on hit and CH (+3 & +6), both are -15 on block.

Tsukami has been brought in line with 2P+G and 8P+G being removed but with the push can not be escaped while option selecting to escape a drag direction. Therefore it is now a 3-way mix-up same as every other comparable interaction. Interestingly they did not remove the drags from 4 and 6 being separate from the throws so you can still move more or less distance before doing it and for the push you can initiate it with P or K instead of P+G only. Also the escapes if I'm reading this translation correct are 4,G,6 instead of 4P+G,P+G,6P+G. I guess they didn't wanna reprogram the whole thing.

1K+G is now safe on block and causes a foot crumple on CH. The only reliable follow-up vs another Goh I can find in a few minutes is 3PP. On Taka and Wolf you can also do 3PP and if you're closer than absolute tip range you can do 2P, 3PP. I'd imagine light characters could be floated with 3P, 2P but didn't test any of them yet.
EDIT: CH 1K+G, 3P, 1fk 2P, 2_3P+K works on Wolf.

1P+K floats higher on aerial hits which gives Goh some new combo routes. For example vs another Goh you used to do 4P+K, P, 66P+K 46P+KP6P for 76. Now you can do 4P+K, P, 1P+K, 46P+KP6P for 83. You can also replace the 4P+K in the old 1P+K, P, 4P+K, 46P+KP6P with another 1P+K although it does not do any more damage than the old combo.
I also managed to land 46P, P, 1P+K, 46P+KP6P on Goh once but it's unreliable. I do foresee the last one ending up useful against light-weights though to free us from doing the same basic combo even on them.
EDIT2: 46P, P, 1fk 1P+K, 3PP on Aoi both stances. Finally a reliable stance free combo on lights that does more than the basic one.

1P+K can now be done from crouching by just holding 1 instead of having to go return your stick to neutral in between. This is very nice for ease of use punishing when crouching under high's as before that worked for every other diagonal BUT NOT 1. This change seems to be move specific as 1K+G can not be done from crouching.

BT 2P is now a low bound. First thought was to try it against Wolf & Jeff from 4P+K and 1P+K to see if the combos from those improved. 1P+K from closed stance you can now do 1P+K, 44P, BT 2P, 46P+KP6P for 85. This does unify Goh's damage from 1P+K against Wolf at least if you can read stance. 4P+K you can't land 44P, 2P but you can do 4P+K, P, 1P+K, 46P+KP6P from closed now. 4P+K, P, 1P+K, 3PP works from open but does 1 points less than the old open specific combo. Seems Wolf is still very stance specific on Goh if you want good damage. Didn't try vs Jeffry.

3KP is now -13 on block instead of -10. 3K itself also got a minor damage nerf to bring the damage total down a bit but it's just 6 points. Can't be used to beat rising attacks now but that's whatever. 9P+K got another active frame which will hopefully make it a bit more reliable on beating lows instead of landing on top of them (didn't test yet). 3P+K is only -10 now which is kinda whatevs in my books. 3P+K also got a minor damage buff so a few points more in wall combos I guess since that's it's main usage. I can be used to beat rising attacks now but it's not good for it because too low active frames.
EDIT3: The 9P+K extra frame might cause it to be more reliable in combos. Side crumples in particular used to be tremendously unstable with it and it might be possible to land it in more regular combos on a bigger portion of the cast now too. Need to test later.

Everything else seems like super minor tweaks.

 

46P, P, 1P+K, 3PP seems like it's the new 46P BNB

On Lei no delays.
Aoi and Vane need to 1fk both 1P+K and 3PP.
On Sarah need to 1fk 3PP, interestingly 1fk:ing 1P+K instead does nothing.
Akira still seems heavier than normal MW but it works on him if you do the FS/US usual thing and just delay your jab slightly which causes him to float a bit higher after 46P.
Doesn't work on Jeffry at all, do the old thing.

Overall it would seem that Goh gets 10 points more from 46P against almost everyone but the execution of the combo differs a lot depending on who you're doing it to.

I've tried using 66K a bit more and there's something that's not mentioned in the notes about it. It's now -7 on block instead of -5. Mayyyybe it could be used to whiffpunish some laggy moves from far away but that's not a common situation.

EDIT: Thanks to the change to Taka bouncing from the floor, you can now do 66K, P, 46P+KP6P with no delays whatsoever.

 

OK LOL, this is not ok unless everyone around the board has mad combo buffs.

1P+K, P, 9P+K, 4P+K, 6K!P+G

You know the 99 damage lightweight combo from FS? 9P+K extra active definitely fixes it not hitting people, perhaps a bit too well. It now works on Jacky and Jean on NH (not on Akira, though). I'm assuming this means it works on everyone except Akira, Wolf, Jeff & Taka.
EDIT: OK, nevermind. It still doesn't work on MW but for some reason it now just does on Jacky and Jean. I wonder did this work on them on CH before and I've just never noticed.

On Akira you can still get 1 more point over the old combo from replacing 4P+K with 9P+K and the high bound does allow you to finish the combo with 46P+KPP into a spike and an extra hit if he doesn't tech.

 

Tested 2/8P+K evade frames and they are exactly the same as 2/8K+G

Now I really have no idea what the point of putting this move back was especially when it's so prone to whiffing due to it's poor range even when you do avoid something.

 

4P+K, P, 9P+K, 1P+K, 6K!P+G works at least on Aoi and Sarah, probably other lights as well. Only 2 points less damage the 1P+K light-weight combo so that's big stocks for this launcher.

Any high bound into 4P+K can now be replaced with 1P+K for a little damage boost it seems, as long as 1P+K itself isn't the combostarter and in the case of the aforementioned avoiding same move scaling too.

3KP, P, 1P+K, 3PP does only one point less than the 3KP, 46P, etc... combo
Only tried Lion, Sarah and Aoi. Sarah no delays, Lion 1fk 3PP, on Aoi it doesn't work.
There might characters on who the 3KP 46P doesn't work but this does. Something to keep in mind for scouring combos when we get the full version.

On a sidenote they made Aoi way heavier than she used to be. You also can't do a combo from BT P+G on her anymore and I'm pretty sure 3KP, 46P worked on her before but it doesn't now. Might misremember that one since I never documented who exactly it works on.
EDIT: Dunno what I was smoking when i tested that, it works on her just fine still

 

Exploring new combo options vs Taka

46P, 3PP
Both stances now with no need for OM. Need to dash in before 3PP from open but works with dash from both
46P, P, 1fk 3PP
Also both stances. You can alternatively delay the P a little and the slightly different bounce allows you to just dial 3PP after. More damage than the first one if you want to deal with the added difficulty.

33P, dash, P, 3PP closed only
Just mentioning here that it also works from 33P and it's really easy but it doesn't work from open at all!
You can now do a quick (and I mean quick) dash into 3PP from both stances but the old solution of doing an OM toward Taka's front after 33P still works too.

3P+K, 1P+K, 2_3P+K
New max damage by 2 points
Also works from 4P+K_ but the old max damage is better from that one. Does not work from 46K.
EDIT: Never mind this, you can now land 9P+K from every stomach crumple on Taka.


1K+G, 46P+KP6P
1K+G, 2P, 3PP
1K+G, 3PP
Immediate 46P+K hits Taka from this. There's a magic pixel that you'll realistically never encounter in a match where both 2P and 46P+K whiff. 3PP always works.

1P+K, 9P+K, 1P+K, 3PP
New max damage. Whopping 1 point more than old max that ended with 6K!P+G.

P+K, dash 3PP
From open you can time the 3PP however you want but from closed you need to dash in and do it asap when you get close to Taka. Too early or too late and 2nd hit whiffs. It's not difficult though.
Does more damage than 3KP and doesn't need point blank P+K like 3KP follow up does (not to mention no need to hold 3 while hit-confirming)

Near wall
(CH 6K), 3KP, 9P+K, 1P+K, 46P+KP6P
Hits weird from other stance but connects fully from both now
Also works from 4P+K or 6K+G into 9P+K near wall unless the angle is close to parallel to a wall in which case the last hit whiffs

4P+K, 9P+K, 1P+K, 3PP
6K+G, 9P+K, 1P+K, 3PP
Side CH K, 9P+K, 1P+K, 3PP
I need to explore timings on these further, not reliable at the moment but putting them out here anyway because they do kinda work
There doesn't appear to be any tricks to making this reliable.

 

vs Taka revisited
You can high bound Taka fom stomach crumples now + found a couple of new enders.

3P+K / 4P+K_ / 46K sabaki / 6K+G
9P+K, 46P+KP, 3PP
Actually new max damage I think, stance free.
Can also be done from 4P+K and 1 P+K but closed stance only from them. Works from 3 of the 4 stance + side combinations for side crumple but unfortunately there just had to be one that sticks out.

Side CH K / 4P+K
9P+K, 46P, 3PP
Does same damage as the old max damage but I prefer ending with 3PP instead of 6K!P+G personally.
Also works from the above launchers although not much reason to do this from them since the previous combo is better. Does not work from 1P+K.
Using 1P+K instead of 46P would add more damage but it doesn't seem like there's any trick to making it work aside from just hard manual timing. If you wanna try the easiest I could get it is microdash into 1P+K.

1P+K, 9P+K, 1P+K, 3PP
Already mentioned in the above post but this is still the best reliable stance free combo from this launcher.
1P+K, 9P+K, 1fk 4P+K, 1fk 3PP jumps through more hoops but exact same damage, lol. It's kinda funny that same move scaled 1P+K does the same damage as 4P+K without it in a combo.

 

I love that we got the MP/EL sabaki back although I'm not used to using it. Easy 1P+K from crouch was on my wishlist so that's great. Anything else I'm not really swinging one way or another, the changes are pretty tame compared to some characters. I should try using 1K+G more but I keep forgetting the move. I think Goh's gonna be fine as ever.

236P+K frames
Sabaki window 1-15 frames vs mid punch & mid elbow
16 damage normally, 20 on successful sabaki
+2 on NH & rCH, +4 CH, +13 on successful sabaki
Has (at least) 2 active frames

 

Exploring a bit vs Wolf
---

4P+K
- 1P+K, 46P+KP6P
Works both stances

- 1P+K, P, 46P+KP6P
Works from closed on NH and both stances on CH so easy extra damage on a CH confirm
---

1P+K
- P, 1P+K, 3PP
Stance free but does not work on CH, only NH / rCH.

- P, 66P+K, 3PP
Work always, 1 point less than above.

- P, 66P+K, 46P+KP6P
Open only NH or CH.

- 44P, BT 2P, 46P+KP6P
Closed only NH. Stance free on CH and most likely the best CH combo from this.

- P, 44P, BT 2P, 3PP
Closed only NH, both stances CH. Does 2 points less than the above but might come in handy for in-air stance reading as you have both the launcher and the jab to confirm whether to go for 44P or 66P+K ender while the opponent is already in the air.
---

1K+G
- 3PP
- 2P, 3PP
- 46P+KP6P
- 3P, 1fk 2P, 2_3P+K
- 2P, 46P+KP6P
In order of damage. All stance free but you need to be relatively close when starting from open or things just whiff. No such problems in closed stance. If you are not right next to the opponent and in open or not sure, your safest bet is just 3PP although even that whiffs if you are at tip range in open.

 

Forgot to post this earlier but regarding the 4K+G guard stagger

You need just 3 inputs during stagger to avoid BT P+K
With 3 inputs you also are still immune to immediate BT P+G

With 4 inputs you can guard BT 2P but you also expose yourself to immediate BT P+G

It's nice having another option although when it comes to oki it's the same evade direction as 66K+G which just beats guard outright. When it comes to using it as a circular I feel it's biggest flaw has always been being 18f instead of 17f but this change does of course still help tremendously if the opponent is just guarding instead. Never ran into a player who's ducking 66K+G on reaction but if you are then this might be for you.

Impossible to get accurate results for speedy stagger recovery just looking at CPU fastest stagger escape it's close to +-0 and against most humans you'll likely be at a slight advantage I'd think.

Not a bad change at all considering the move was utterly useless before. I'm a bit surprised they introduced a stagger here instead of just changing the block animation and frame situation. I didn't bother trying if backdashing BT P+K after struggling is an option but I'd imagine it's on the table for a lot of the cast.

 

Confirms my suspicions that is one hugeeeeeeee window. Thanks for confirming the hit class. Didn't think it would do anything else but you never know!

 

TBH I didn't specifically try the hit types. I just noticed it loses to highs in matches still and wins both MP and EL so I just assumed it's the same as before.

 

Bounding Eileen, Aoi and Blaze after cr.s is weird now. After 3P+K you can do it on Eileen and Aoi with instant 2P, any delay and 66P+K whiffs in open. Trying to find the right timings to do it after 4P+K_ is not match viable at all. Didn't try 46K but probably the same deal with that one too.

You can now do 3KP, 3P, 1fk 2P, 46P+KP6P on Eileen
On Blaze 3KP, 3P, P, 46P+KP6P works now. You can change the string at the end for 6K!P+G for same damage.

You can't land the old light-weight combo on Blaze anymore after 1P+K nor the new 4P+K one either. Best substitutes from a quick lab would seem to be
1P+K, 9P+K, 4P+K, 46P+KP6P (can do airthrow instead again)
4P+K, 1P+K, 66P+K, 46P+KP6P

 

1) Is 2/8P+K useless move while we have 2/8K+G?
2) Why they removed block breaker head strike 236P+K??

 

1 - Sega bringing out the relics!.

2 - The move was a bit inconsistent at times. But it was rarely used as well.
I miss it from an animation point of view but yeah not sure how much it was used.

 

1.
Definitely seems like it. Anything about it that differs from 2/8K+G is for the worse.

Both are -15 on block and both have 7 evade frames, both are -15 on block and both do 20 damage.

2/8P+K has worse reach and is way too prone to whiffing, has less advantage on NH and CH, is way worse at knocking an opponent into a side wall hit.

It's only "advantage" is that if the opponent quite literally takes their hands off their controller and doesn't do any inputs at all then doing it to your stomach side gives you a side hit which 2/8K+G doesn't do. Yippee...

2.
I can understand it going because it's difficult to think what role the move really has in Goh's gameplan. It's not easy to buff without making it way stronger than it used to be or just straight up changing it's properties. I guess they just chose to make 4K+G the self back turning GB instead and spared themselves the headache of figuring out what the purpose of headbutt is or could even be.

 

I started my morning by quickly doing some more vs Blaze experimenting and I found something weird / interesting.

46P, P, 1P+K, 3PP works from open but not closed
46P, 3P, 1fk 2P, 46P+KP6P works inconsistently (and I don't know why) from closed by never from open.

Now let's try 46P sometimes having some weird shit happening to the combo structure on side hits for no apparent reason.

46P, P, 1P+K, 3PP doesn't work on either side from either stance. It just ceases to function at all on a side hit vs Blaze.
46P, 3P, 1fk 2P, 46P+KP6P on the other hand works consistently on both sides from both stances on a side hit.

This kind of weird spaghetti never stops amusing me.

 

46P, P, 1P+K, 3PP works on Brad in both open and closed stance for some reason