Tekken player getting back to his roots,VF!

I used to play a lot of Virtua Fighter 1,2 and 3 back in the days and I also played Tekken when I was in the arcade.Now I have a PS3 and I bought Tekken 5 DR online as my first fighter.Even thought VF5 for the PS3 doesn't have online play,I still bought it.

then....

I'm starting to feel that I enjoy more VF5 than Tk5DR.Tekken is cool but the battle system of VF5 seems more easy and more fun to play.I'll see if it's the same when Tekken 6 comes out for the PS3.

 

Battle system of VF5 IS-less masochism, more deep, advanced and various; and more Mindgame(=>wider the spectrum of feelings, emotions).

 

^Subjective.

 

While parts of his statement are subjective, he is right on others.


In the basic fighting scenario between two VF characters
and two Tekken characters, there are more options offensively and defensively for between two VF characters than there are for two Tekken characters. I play lots of Tekken to relax and have played it since Tekken 2. I am speaking from experience.

While the basic complexity of the movelists are more or less the same, its the other defensive and offensive mechanics of VF that
give you more options in a fight. This is not subjective.

If you were to put me to task I could give you the mathematics of it. They both have roughly the same factorial combination of moves from the movelists but the other offensive and defensive mehanics which increase movelists options exponentially are what give VF the feeling of sophistication that everyone who really play both tekken and VF feel.

In a crude kind-a-way its all about options. In a serious match there are far more options for two VF players than there are
for two tekken players.

 

I call B.S. Let's see it.

 

Welcome to the game and ignore above comments..

 

Fair enough.

We have several basic combinatorics formulas to work with. For those of you
who know B.S. when you see it. They are taken from set theory and go something like this.

When selecting the number of samples of r out n objects. We have these choices:
First I'll present four basic formulas, then I will relate them to a hypothetical VF character and situation:

1) N^r (that is N raised to the r) (That's ordered)
2) N! / (N -R)! Thats ordered (without replacement)
3) (N-1 +R)! / (N-1)!R! unordered with replacement
4) N! /(N-R)! unordered with out replacement

Will look at a couple of scenarios, and see how much math you're up to.

These our the basic formulas that we have to start with. Let's say
N represents the total number of moves a character has to choose from in some situation and R represents a realistic sequence of moves that the character can make in that situation(we'll exclude 10 hit combos for the minute[/size]).

So lets puts some numbers with that. Let say we're in a stituation where we have
10 moves to choose from and the combo sequence is 4. That is 4 uninterrupted moves (a successful combo) then the total possible choices of p(10,4) is calculated like this:

10! / (10-4)! = 5040 choices. This would be the case if once I picked one of those moves I couldn't use it again(without replacement) and once I picked a move
it would determine(or fix) the order of the next moves I could make (ordered). This represents case 2.

If I could use any of the moves multiple times for instance /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif . Then we could use case 1 10^4 = 10000 choices. However with case 1 although you can use a move over in a sequence it matters which order the moves come in. Is everyone following this? For example:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, etc


Now lets look at case 3. What if it does matter what order we pick our sequence of 4 in but we are restricted to only using a move once then we have:

10! / 4!(10-4)! = 210 choices of a sequence of 4 moves of an initial choice of 10

In case 4. We have the situation where the order of the moves are not important
<u>and we can use any move out of the 10 more than once</u>. Then we have:

(10 -1 + 4)!/(10 -1)!4! = 715 sequence of 4 to choose from so in our little example

Case1: 10000 sequences of 4
Case2: 5040 sequences of 4
Case3: 210 sequences of 4
Case4: 715 sequences of 4

The above formulas are based on the fundamental counting principle of mathematics for those that are interested. Typically taught in first year
computer science courses under the heading of discrete mathematics or a first
year course in statistics.

Now my point was in the scenario where you are talking about Tekken vs VF
both have comparable move lists per character. So cases 1 thru 4 would equally apply to VF and to Tekken. However VF has other mechanics (e.g. double,triplethrow escapes, OM, DM,evades, sabakis) that are really not part of the semantics of Tekken. What these mechanics do is to act as factors, or exponents when applied to the formulas in case 1,2,3,4 to give two fighters in a VF match more options.

Obviously the above explanation is a over simplication because I only talked about the possibilities without respect to how the move choices would be affected once the opponent made a move. But with a little more work we could figure those
out as well.

For those of your who looked at this an wasn't quite sure about '!' that means
factorial.

The basic idea is if a character has N moves. Let's say 4 (just for fun) [/size]and the player is going to make a total of 4 moves. How many combinations of moves does he have if he can only use a move once in the sequence of 4.

For his first move he has 4 choices. Once has picked one, for his next move he has 3 choice (4*3) for his next move he has 2 choices (4*3*.2) and so on.

you get the picture:

4*3*2*1 = 24 choices of 4 moves. That's the basic idea.

VF has more options because in addition to basic character move lists, it has more metacharacter offensive and defensive options than tekken does. So to apply
the basic principle of counting what you do is take the total number of
meta character offensive and defensive moves that Tekken has and subtract them
from the number of metac character offensive and defesnive moves that VF has
and that number is either a factor or an exponent (depending on situation) to one
of the 4 formulas above. This is why VF is objectively a more sophisticated game
than Tekken (don't get me wrong I play and enjoy tekken 10-hit-combos-and all[/size])

KoD I remember reading some of your posts. From what I remember you're a pretty methodical cat. I would've guessed that you knew this kind of stuff already.
I seem to remember that you're pretty good at frame counting (perhaps I'm thinking of someone else)

But anyway we can have a mathematics discussion at any level you would like to
have it. We could include probability in the above discussion to determine
what the probable 4 sequence combo would be given two characters in a situtation
etc.


If my explanation is not[/size] clear enough let me know and I'll get more specific.

 

</div>
</div></div>

^Subjective.

-----

Apples X <-> X Oranges

 

You are correct. That is a biased point. My suggestion is that VF has more unique properties/options (beyond the move lists for each character) than Tekken and the other biased assumption is that the unique properties in VF add to the number of options that a VF player has.

I have never counted the meta character offensive/defensive options in Tekken
I think I will do it now. My point is only about the mathematical possibilities in
both games (over and beyond the character specific move lists).

Are the number of unique features to both games equal? If that is truly the case
then I stand corrected. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

loll thank you

 

Congratulations, you can copy examples from Rosen. You're still full of B.S. Your argument makes about as much sense as this:

VF has a 9 direction lever ( choose 1 direction ) combined with 3 buttons ( choose 0 to 3 buttons ), so at any given frame, the player may choose from

9 x ( ( 3! / 0!(3 - 0)!) + ( 3! / 1!(3 - 1)!) + ( 3! / 2!(3 - 2)!) + ( 3! / 3!(3 - 3)!) )
9 x ( 1 + 3 + 3 + 1 )
== 72 distinct options

Tekken has a 9 direction lever ( choose 1 direction ) combined with 4 buttons ( choose 0 to 4 buttons ), so at any given frame, the player may choose from

9 x ( ( 4! / 0!(4 - 0)!) + ( 4! / 1!(4 - 1)!) + ( 4! / 2!(4 - 2)!) + ( 4! / 3!(4 - 3)!) + ( 4! / 4!(4 - 4)!) )
9 x ( 1 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 1 )
== 144 distinct options

So, as you can see, because it has an extra button (ignoring Tag for the moment), Tekken actually has twice as many options as VF.

What's that you say? That isn't how the game actually works? No shit, sherlock. The game also doesn't actually work by choosing a sequence of R moves from N options. In most cases, once you've made the first choice in a string, your remaining options are severely limited. For instance, Jeff may have 172 "moves", but once you push 6P with jeff, you have two options: cancel the recovery by pressing 4P, or not. That's it. (Never mind that you also didn't actually enumerate the supposedly more numerous basic mechanics of VF as compared to Tekken)

The actual interesting mathematics of the games has a lot more to do with game theory (i.e. is throw even a useful option in a given situation, or is it dominated), and a lot less to do with permutations or combinations.

 

^ Best post in this thread. Hope you enjoy the game and stay.

 

okay so... im reading this and...
i dont understand any of it...
am i stupid?

 

yes

 

Ahh... Grasshopper....

Question 1: Who's Rosen? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Question 2: Did I not say a hypothetical situation (and character) where you
have 10 moves and a opportunity for a sequence of 4?

For you to bring up a specific character (Jeffrey) and situation where from his current move he only has two choices, misses the point entirely..

Ahh... Grasshopper...

In terms of enumerating the moves, I could e-mail them to you if you'd like.

I'm sure that I could pick a particular VF character and choose a situation where from a given stance that character has at least N moves with a legitimate sequence of R for a combo. I could then enumerate the moves for you. Actually I would probably write a Prolog program to do it.

I also did not say this is how the game is played.. I only was interested in
describing the mathematical possible options of VF vs Tekken.

Ahh... Ahem...

KoD I thought you were one of the few, but instead I see you're one of the many.
You have much to learn my friend....

But you're young,. there's time., I'm patient and understanding.

I look forward to PS3 VF online so that I can learn from you how the game
is played /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

No.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">
<span style='font-size: 8pt'>Translation:

More or less.</span></div></div></div>

 

Masterpo, your counting method is faulty lol. Are you serious that you know combinatorics?

Cause in VF, your move choice isn't randomly picked. Your initial input pretty much determines the rest of your choices, thus it already doesn't qualify to use the counting methods you chose. Like what KoD has said, if the buttons were randomly picked, Tekken automatically wins simply due to more buttons. You have already made a noob mistake when you provided your initial conditions, it's evident you are just spouting bullshit.

In fact, most of the characters in VF aren't as complex as Tekken characters in terms of possible outcomes simply because every Tekken characters string based moves are more tree-based, meaning that for the same first move, there are multiple paths of possible outcomes.

In VF, most characters do not have nearly as many string based moves with more than 1 possible outcome.

So if were going to apply math to it, Tekken would be more complex if you consider amount of possibility.

So I say again, do you really know combinatorics? or you might just have read some introduction to it cause those 4 counting methods you used are like what you would learn if you only attended first day of class, and you still didn't get it right. lol

 

WATER ON MARS

 

That's why I stopped reading here:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So lets puts some numbers with that. Let say we're in a stituation where we have
10 moves to choose from and the combo sequence is 4. That is 4 uninterrupted moves (a successful combo) then the total possible choices of p(10,4) is calculated like this:

10! / (10-4)! = 5040 choices.</div></div>

My brain gets allergic to BS.