Territorialism...

I was reading the local newspaper last Sunday, when I came across an article about territorial surfers. One day, a businessman in San Francisco wanted to relax after work by catching some waves. Apperently, the usuals at the beach he chose (like at so many other beaches, or so I hear) don't take kindly to "newcomers" or "newbies". They attacked him while he was in the water; hitting him, breaking his board, and holding him underneath the water. Even after all of this, back on shore, one of the usuals returned to deal another blow to the businessman. This was all caught on camera by a tourist, and the usuals were temporarily banned from the San Fran beaches.

This hit home to me because my roommate wants me to give surfing a try. I promised him that I will; he's so enthusiastic about it, he even said he has the perfect board for a beginner like me. But after I learn, I'd be hesitant to go to my local beach to surf, because what's keeping the same thing from happening to me.

This whole thing reminded me of the internet. So many online communities seem so harsh to newcomers. I remember downloaded the Heavy Gear 2 demo for pc. One particular game session, this one guy downloaded a cheat (for a special gear), and, naturally, was winning. He proceeded to curse and insult me and the other gamers until we all left and joined another game. Sometimes these assholes will even look for you again just to mess with you.

And recently, another friend has gotten me into magic: the gathering (the things my friends get me into /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ). I'm not ready to shell out money for cards, so I downloaded the online demo. I've never met such a cold bunch of people. Just the other day, I was playing, and I made a stupid newbie mistake (duh, I just started playing the game). The other guy explained to me what I did wrong, and to lighten up the quiet atmosphere I typed "dumb mistake...guess I'm stupid", to which he replied "yes you sure are". No smilies or anything. I took that one in stride, since I did open myself up to it. But what pissed me off, is at the end of the game I typed "good game", to which he replied "actually, you suck".

How the hell do you deal with this crap. I really don't like confrontations so I normally just ignore these idiots, but it gets harder and harder when you run into about 10 of them in one day.

Really, the point of this thread is just to see you guys' opinions on this subject, and to see how you deal with it if you're on the receiving end. I mean, duh, I'm a newbie; everybody is at some point. And for the people who don't have friends to teach them "how to play magic" or "how to surf", that kinda treatment will definitely turn them off to these "HOBBIES". These are recreational activities that are open to everybody. If you have the money and the desire, by a surfboard and pay for parking your car at the beach. If you have the computer, play whatever computer game you want. Why the hell do people act like these things should be exclusive to them?

 

To help out a newbie in a positive way requires a small amount of effort - not a lot, but a bit. And the truth is that, online, nobody's going to hunt someone down for *not* doing the good thing, and helping you out.

Likelyhood is, the same person might have helped you in real life - but *really*, they'd have been thinking 'yes, you are stupid' and 'actually, he sucked'. They just don't see why they shouldn't voice that out loud if there's no consequences.

For everyone there's probably a few times when we've helped someone while really thinking 'I can't be bothered' or 'ffs, sort it out yourself'. Online can bring out the worst in people. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

The same 'effort' argument could apply to 'accepting' a new person into an existing group that's friendly, familar and comfortable. Sometimes.. people can't be bothered. A negative reflection on them? Probably. But not a lot that can be done about it. Look for people that don't act like that, and ignore the others. There's a lot of idiots in the world - the internet just gives them a very loud and consequence-free arena in which to express themselves. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

I would reply, but you've only got 196 posts here, so I won't bother...


/versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif


That's just white American culture man - you gotta learn to live with it, or move abroad like I did. You think it's any wonder why so many brown people want to blow up America - b/c there's a large amount of people that are total self-serving assholes. It's the sad truth. I'm sure there are many such people in other cutlures, but for some reason, they really stick out amongst the Yanks.

Now think of the average person that enjoys the wonders of the internet and online gaming - while I've had some fun conversations in online games, personable skills are not common, and definitely not a necessity. It's also very easy to be an asshole to someone you can't see. I've been playing PSO a lot. The servers are split (JPN/US/EUR). I go to the US ship to meet a friend, and someone is running around, repeating a shortuct he made, which had to do with black people, monkeys, and a few f-words in there. What are the repercussions for being such a prick? He just wouldnt' be able to play PSO anymore on that account, and the chacnes of that are very slim.

VF-community is quite different, as getting good at the game is going to require outside help - no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Finally, there are some communities that are relatively kind to newbies. I've been looking into modding my X-box so I can play Mame on it, amongst other emulators. They don't tolerate many newbie questions, but they've put up almost ANY question you could imagine asking as a newb, in the form of a FAQ. It says in the forums - read all faqs before asking questions. if you do, they're kewl, if not, the do the same thing that happens here - tell you to use the Search button. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I guess there's no fine line between pampering a newbie, and tollerance.

 

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There's a lot of idiots in the world - the internet just gives them a very loud and consequence-free arena in which to express themselves.

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So very, very true. I think territorialism is a pretty good word for describing this. People work hard to get good at something, and when someone asks them a stupid question, they get defensive about having them in their community or relating that hobby (or whatever) to this 'stupid' person. In the end it's mostly ego related.

As far as the surfing incident goes, surfers hate other surfers dropping in on them, or ruining their ride. Learning surfing isn't such a bad thing to do, just make sure you learn on a day when it isn't so crowded, maybe early in the morning. Also in most communities it may be best to be with a bunch of newcomers - they are all learning the same thing, they can all relate. It isn't always viable but it can help.

Of course the net is even worse - and even worse than the net is online games. It's competitive and no one knows each other, so it's easy to judge the other people around you. Funny as Kojima was talking in an interview on Gamespy about this very problem - he wanted to have a way to make gamers feel 'guilt' for killing their team mates or doing other stupid things.

The absolute very worst I've seen has to be Counter-Strike online - all the jokes you hear (go onto www.bash.org and do a search of 'counter' or 'CS') have truth in them. CS is a great game - built on a crap engine with a crap communitiy. Because the game is client based it's prone to cheating, and so you get cheaters, and you get people who go around and accuse people of cheating. Apperently you can't be good at CS, if you have a good score you are automatically a hax0r. CS is also a newbie unfriendly zone - hell people get pissed if you don't know the map. Team games have an ugly side - when all your team hates you /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

When it comes to CS, you just have to ignore them. It's something you have to expect when you're trying something new, it's more how you deal with it. Of course it always helps to research what you're doing first - with online games it always helps to practice offline (even if it is theory) and get to know how the game works. Surfing is obviously different but keep out of other peoples ways and you should be fine.

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But after I learn, I'd be hesitant to go to my local beach to surf, because what's keeping the same thing from happening to me.

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What happened was a very specific case - it would be lucky for that to happen to you even once in a lifetime. Surfers that surf in groups can sometimes also be...'annoying'. Really if you're in a public place and stay out of peoples way you'll get the hang of it. Who knows after seeing you there a few times they might get to know you. They are still normal people after all. Just remember that the guy getting attacked was an exceptional case, like a 1 in 100 chance, but his story makes news. You won't hear about the other 99 cases of "a surfer went out today to the beach and had a really great time, he said it was quote: 'rippin' ".

Who knows why people have to be so protective, but I wouldn't let that stop you from doing something you enjoy.

 

When it comes to surfing I can only speak about East Coast surfers. I've surfed up and down EC from Virginia/Maryland to Florida and never had problems with the "Locals" at any of the beaches. The general rules of thumb are basically you respect everyone out there. You wait your turn in line. Take your ride for good or bad and get back in the queue. Treating people with respect is first and foremost. I have seen some rude ass people snaking runs and disrespecting people get hardcore beatdowns. Most surfers in my experiences have never been very gang-like. My dad said that he has never had problems with locals on east/west coast, australia, or japan. He said the only trouble he had was a few incidents in Hawaii, but most of that was his own fault for sneaking into private beaches because they had nice swells. Talk to the people and try establish a dialog with a few in your area so you're just looked at as a newcomer and not a nuisance.

Magic:TG is a whole different beast. I played MTG competitively for 3 years and met a whole lot of people from all over the world. Sadly enough I would say that a good 60%+ were assholes who only wanted to make people feel bad about their ability. Some view it as a mindgame (Social Darwinism?) to increase competition, but I just think it's people trying to make themselves feel better at the expense of others. It's a great game that breeds a lot of competition and is a wonderful strategy format. I still play some Type 2 games and sealed deck formats, but rarely compete anymore. Most of the places we competed in fell to hell when Pokemon was unleashed and tables were overrun by trash-talking 10 year olds. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I have yet to try it online, but with the new enhancements for MTGOnline Version 2.0 I may give it a try. Good luck with it and if you need any help with deck building strategies or ideas, just PM me.

 

Gotta love stereotyping of american culture. It's not an american thing. It's a "Stupid People" thing. They come in all flavors and sizes. The only countries I have never met rude people from are Singapore and the Phillipines, but I am sure they have assholes as well. Play Diablo 2 and you'll see Koreans, Americans, and Dutch being equally retarded. Play Ragnarok and meet Chinese, Koreans, Americans, Japanese, and English who are just plain stupid. The internet just breeds ignorance and arrogance, but it's nice enough to not ignore people of different races. It corrupts them all equally.

 

I would've agreed w/ you about 6 years ago, but when you get out of the bubble for a while, you start to see the big picture.

I'm not saying that it's only America, or that there are no assholes elsewhere, but other nations seem to do a *MUCH* better job of keeping it under wraps. I've been playing PSO almost exclusively on JPN servers for quite a while now. I've met only ONE asshole on the Japanese servers, and one that was questionable, then another handful (5-6) on trading boards -- that's out of several hundered people... likely 1000. I've bumped into other JPN computer guys elsehwere -- Japanese politeness, albeit annoying as shit when you're surrounded by it, is carried over to the internet 100-fold. Item-trading boards look like company-merger negotiations.

There's a reason why Yanks have such a bad reputation worldwide. When you get out of the states, you realize why. No shit, I had no idea where the term "typical American" came from until I moved abroad.

There's no such thing as the "community" anymore in states. People don't know their neighbors and don't care. I can't speak for other western countries, but I was growing up just before it deteriorated so to speak (I'm 28 now) I remember my friends parents would take me straight home and saw to it that I got an ass-whipping if I was out of line. I also remember when an elder had every right to put a rotten kid in his place in public. Now, he'd get sued. those days are over, and we're breeding shitehads b/c of it.

I don't quote movies too often, but Morgan Freeman had a good line in Seven, if you saw it.
"It's easier to lose yourself in drugs than face life. It's easier to beat a child rather than raise it. Love costs".
That's it - showing kindness takes energy. Being an asshole doesn't.

There's also the whole side of insecurity but this post has gone on along.

Note: I'm NOT America-bashing. As you know, I am American, and will one day live there again. I just think there's some serious issues going on today in American social culture.

 

People on the net vary from the ignorant to the sublimly ignorant, from those who know what they're doing to those who have been playing for years and still don't have a clue in hell. At any rate, there was supposed to be some unwritten rules comprised when the interactions with each other over the net started that someone forgot to do, as such we have people going around with what they believe to be anonymous actions which they don't realize gives them a very real and (on occasion) a very unappropriate face. Many of these people are very nice and friendly (and knowledgable) in real life but they come off on the internet as smug, arrogant, ignorant jackasses. Just abide by what you would do in real life when your on the net people. I've had the very unfortunate tendency of trouble finding me but never me looking for it. That being said, why look for trouble when there is enough for everyone tenfold.

PS. If you are a jackass in real life, by all means continue along your road to achieve total assholedom. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Ok, I will and no encouragement needed. /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

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KojiroSon said:
Many of these people are very nice and friendly (and knowledgable) in real life but they come off on the internet as smug, arrogant, ignorant jackasses. Just abide by what you would do in real life when your on the net people.

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One of my friends said that the internet brings out the "real person". I agree with that statment. Like many of you guys said earlier, it's a consequence-free environment. People act they way they would if they could get away with it. Real life isn't consequence-free, but how many people would talk more trash, get in your face more, or even beat up on people they are certain can't beat them, all if they could get away with it scott-free?

Gaijin: I haven't been overseas (for longer than a month, and I've yet to go to Asia), but I can see what you're saying, and I agree. I mainly see it in the younger generation. I'm 20 years old, and I've run into small 8-9 year olds that will get in anyone's face just because they didn't get their way. They fit that description of "they do what they can get away with", because their parents don't scold them, yet the parents back them up even when their dead wrong. I'm not as old as you, but yeah...my teachers had the authority to beat me if I was out of line. Then they'd tell my parents, and you know the rest.

Replicant: Thanks. So far I really like magic. I still don't want to spend money on it yet, but when I do finally start a deck, I'll see what you think. Right now, I'm partial to green and/or blue. I can't stand the black deck. It's so commonly used on the demo, and being able to tamper with cards before in play, in play, and in the graveyard is too annoying for me.

Excellent replies guys. I just wanted to see the opinions of others. Keep them coming as long as you have them.

 

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afroconnexion said:
How the hell do you deal with this crap. I really don't like confrontations so I normally just ignore these idiots, but it gets harder and harder when you run into about 10 of them in one day.

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If you actually do meet 10 assholes a day then I feel for you man, you have to move from where you live. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The truth is that, no matter where you go, you'll always meet assholes, whether it's online ; on the freeway ; school ; work, etc. The trick is to keep a positive attitude and move on, espescially online. Easy to say hard to do, I know, but what else can you do apart from moving to your own little island. You can legislate physical abuse but not what someone can and cannot say to another person online : especially "you suck". The ''you're new so I won't respect you or talk to you or make fun of you...'' thing, will never go away. It's part and will always be part of human behavior. What's important is how you deal with it. I see it as a temporary phase that most people will have to go through when entering an unfamiliar crowd, gang, school... Me I just go with the flow, I'll show respect when respect is due or be an asshole myself if I have to, but never insult a newcomer. WHY ?

Anyways, c'mon man, you can't let shit like ''you suck'' ruin your day. That's nothing. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

What sucks for a newbie is that if you complain about how an established vet is treating you, people chalk it up to "the newbie is taking things too hard, he needs to toughen up." or something similar to that.

In reality, the newbie just had the bad luck to bump into one of the asshole vets. There are generally polite vets, generally impolite vets, and guys who fall in between and are mostly cool, then out of the blue come across as really rude or caustic. That third flavor is the most unsettling to me...

Anyway, what should you do...? Well, if one guy talks to you as if you were a small child covered in his own feces... talk to someone else. Probably the safest course online is to read through posts, make note of which people seem cool, and then to be doubly safe send them a private message instead of making a public post. This works because -

1. It's harder to be a dick to someone when it's strictly 1 on 1... the same way it'd be harder to be a dick face to face or even on the phone.

2. With no audience, nobody will be tempted to say something especially vicious just to get a laugh out of the gallery.

3. It's kind of flattering for the vet to find that out of all the people a newbie could have been PMed, he was the guy who gave the impression of being knowledgeable and approachable enough to ask. That's my feeling of course, other vets might just view PMs as a nuisance...


Your surf story is whack. Out of the dozen or so guys on here who might flame a newbie, I can't think of any (maybe 1) who would physically assault someone. Maybe it's just an inherent danger of trying to get into hobbies that are populated by young males... video games... surfing... try posting a stupid question on a quilting message board, or at a chess club. At least you won't get beat up. Probably.

 

> I can't think of any (maybe 1) who would physically assault someone

indeed. chanchai is a menace and must be locked away to protect society.