VF is just too damn frustrating!

Let me just preface this post by saying that I'm not a newcomer to VF. I've been "trying" to play it since I first saw VF2 in late '95. The problem is that after all these years I still can't play worth a damn. I recognize the technical superiority of VF to all other 3D fighters, the problem is I just don't have fun playing it.

The main problem is that I feel "imprisoned" by the guard button. I have a hard time moving fluidly, so most of the time I find myself just standing there, or doing some nonsensical movement to fulfill some sense of obligation to move around. Many times I accidentally tap or hold the button too long and no attack comes out because of the button, at which point I end up yelling some obscenities. Again I understand the added functionality that having the button provides, but I just can't get used to it.

Another problem I have with VF is that it requires way too much "homework." If you want to be a competant player, you have to know not only your own character's moves, but everyone else's too (in regards to which moves are throw counterable, which moves you can minor counter, which moves are uncounterable, etc.). You have combos that only work on characters of certain weight, in a certain stance, on a full moon on a certain day of the month (VF3 even added terrain dependant combos to this insane mix). I realize there are combos you can do on everyone, in any stance, but those are usually weak, putting you at a disadvantage against heavyweights. Like with Sarah, the best you can get is a dinky DC, , after floating heavies on normal hit. I know most fighting games require some level of knowledge and committment, but VF is just insane in this reqard. A fighting game shouldn't require a PhD to play.

I want to make clear that I admire VF, I'm not bashing it. I hope to see some thoughtful responses and not the usual, "If you don't like it, go play Tekken, scrub."

 

Then why did you buy VF3 and 4?Could have just left it and bought tekken and play as christie and win by using one button. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Funny how you say that it's hard to move fluidly because of the guard button /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. How is it easier to move back and forth and in and out if you have to hold back to block? If you say that you can press back any time to block during movement, then that's exactly what you can do with a guard button too /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

As for having to learn so much to play, it's not that bad really, because some of the stuff you can just learn by playing (like the basics of which moves recover slow enough to be thrown. You can 'feel' a move that recovers slow enough to be thrown. If you try a throw and the opponent gets you with a + or something, then it recovers faster than to be thrown, but then you know that you have other options to nail them out of their attack, like elbowing (for example) for a stagger or evading).

Just play naturally and don't make it sound so hard for yourself to play VF, and it will become second nature /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

 

Well, your complaints about homework are actually worse for VF's two competitors, Tekken and SC. At least it's possible to win in VF even if you don't really know your opponent's character all that well (I am a good example...still don't know how to play Lei Fei, what moves give me advantage, etc. but have beaten many high ranking Lei Feis in Japan...including Heruru). In Tekken, you can get murdered (for free) if you don't know how to deal with 10-hit strings...which advanced players don't even consider a part of high level play. In SC, not knowing what attack hits what can put you in a world of frustration, because strings are much more numerous and integral to guessing games in SC than VF.

In VF, there are simple rules of thumbs that makes the learning process easier. Most attacks will leave you at advantage if you successfully block the attack (except standing punches). There are attack "classes" that have very similar properties; i.e. elbows, sidekicks, uppers, "axe kicks," sweeps, etc. Moreover, many of those moves animate very similarly.

What's even better is that there's just a very predictable kind of logic for moves in VF. "This move is so slow and doesn't even take that much damage...I bet it recovers quickly." "This moves is pretty fast and the combos possible after it take so much damage...it's probably throw-counterable." This kind of logic...NOT predictable in Tekken or SC.

Also, you trying to memorize everything at once is more a pace issue with yourself than the fault of the game. The game is designed so that the highest damaging combos are often the most context-specific...but there are plenty of functional combos that work across all characters, stances, etc. What you should be doing is figuring out an arsenal of simple, staple combos that you feel you can execute with regularity, and play with them; when they begin to feel obvious, that's when you start learning more context-specific ones.

Your enjoyment of the game is meant to ramp up as you get better at it!! I suppose that one of the factors of your trying to do too much at once is that, as a more educated gamer, you've done your research and so you know what's out there. Perhaps that's why the light at the end of the tunnel seems so distant.

(And trust me, there's more to VF than what you see here or in the training mode).

As for the button...I can't help you there. It's so superior to holding [BK] that I don't even know how to address your complaints in this issue.

 

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Bu_Jassoom said:

Funny how you say that it's hard to move fluidly because of the guard button /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. How is it easier to move back and forth and in and out if you have to hold back to block? If you say that you can press back any time to block during movement, then that's exactly what you can do with a guard button too /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

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The difference is that pressing or holding the button will cancel your dash/crouch dash or prevent an attack from coming out altogether if you accidentally hold it down too long. A lot of times I want to counter with an elbow or sidekick, and I mess up and don't let go of guard quickly enough, and nothing happens.

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As for having to learn so much to play, it's not that bad really, because some of the stuff you can just learn by playing (like the basics of which moves recover slow enough to be thrown. You can 'feel' a move that recovers slow enough to be thrown. If you try a throw and the opponent gets you with a + or something, then it recovers faster than to be thrown, but then you know that you have other options to nail them out of their attack, like elbowing (for example) for a stagger or evading).


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That's not necessarily true either. A lot of throw counterable moves are tricky to throw. If you don't input the throw instantly after blocking, a + wil hit you. If you didn't do it fast enough you might be fooled into thinking that move wasn't throw counterable. Many moves you can't tell by looking either. Take Lei-Fei: a lot of his moves which look throw counterable aren't, and vice versa.

 

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ice-9 said:

Well, your complaints about homework are actually worse for VF's two competitors, Tekken and SC. At least it's possible to win in VF even if you don't really know your opponent's character all that well (I am a good example...still don't know how to play Lei Fei, what moves give me advantage, etc. but have beaten many high ranking Lei Feis in Japan...including Heruru). In Tekken, you can get murdered (for free) if you don't know how to deal with 10-hit strings...which advanced players don't even consider a part of high level play. In SC, not knowing what attack hits what can put you in a world of frustration, because strings are much more numerous and integral to guessing games in SC than VF.

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It's funny you should mention Lei-Fei. All his moves look the same to me. I can't tell which is which. Tenstrings in Tekken are a non-issue except for rank beginners. They've been around so long that there is copious documentation out there on how to block them. You can even auto-SS and punish. Even so, I agree that the concept is outdated and they should be removed. Neither of the two new characters in T4 have tenstrings (Steve technically does, but it's just a quick 10 hitting move, not really a string, and has limited use). Jin's tenstrings were taken out.

In Tekken there are so few moves that guarantee a throw attempt, that the concept really doesn't factor into Tekken play. You really only get throws after conditioning your opponent to block. Most moves that would guarantee a throw probably recover slowly enough to guarantee a juggle anyway.

I'm just trying to learn SC now, and it's about as frustrating as VF because every character seems to have 200 strings.

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In VF, there are simple rules of thumbs that makes the learning process easier. Most attacks will leave you at advantage if you successfully block the attack (except standing punches). There are attack "classes" that have very similar properties; i.e. elbows, sidekicks, uppers, "axe kicks," sweeps, etc. Moreover, many of those moves animate very similarly.

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That may be true for the original characters, but some characters like Lei-Fei and Brad have moves that don't look the same as their traditional counterparts. For example, by looks alone, you couldn't tell that Brad's +, is so highly counterable. It looks like other characters' , combos.

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What's even better is that there's just a very predictable kind of logic for moves in VF. "This move is so slow and doesn't even take that much damage...I bet it recovers quickly." "This moves is pretty fast and the combos possible after it take so much damage...it's probably throw-counterable." This kind of logic...NOT predictable in Tekken or SC.

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I don't know about SC, but in Tekken if you aren't sure you pretty much assume that a move isn't counterable unless proven otherwise. Moves that are very highly counterable are more the exception. In VF, most characters are already at a disadvantage after a simple , combo!

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Also, you trying to memorize everything at once is more a pace issue with yourself than the fault of the game. The game is designed so that the highest damaging combos are often the most context-specific...but there are plenty of functional combos that work across all characters, stances, etc. What you should be doing is figuring out an arsenal of simple, staple combos that you feel you can execute with regularity, and play with them; when they begin to feel obvious, that's when you start learning more context-specific ones.

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Most of the combo lists I've seen have very few universal combos. Even most of those stop at Jacky or Akira. Maybe you can get 2 hits on Jeffry/Wolf.

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Your enjoyment of the game is meant to ramp up as you get better at it!! I suppose that one of the factors of your trying to do too much at once is that, as a more educated gamer, you've done your research and so you know what's out there. Perhaps that's why the light at the end of the tunnel seems so distant.

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But I've been trying to get good since 1995! One of the main problems is total lack of competition since VF3 came out. The last time the local arcades have seen VF competition was probably early 1997.

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As for the button...I can't help you there. It's so superior to holding [BK] that I don't even know how to address your complaints in this issue.

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I already agreed that it's technically superior. I just have butterfingers and can't get used to it. At least they could make it an option for the dexterity impaired.

 

Dude you make it sound like VF is your job. Unless you're insane like me and want to play a ton of games well then there's no need to stress over it. If you really like the game learning stuff like stance combos, triple throw escapes, and such things would be fun. It's like unlocking secrets except that these really matter. Yeah I know it hurts to realize you're not the shit you'd like to be but that should be the incentive to learn so when you practicex3 and become THE SHIT you can feel proud. Anyway, if you've not really enjoying it after all this time maybe the game just isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with that because everything isn't for everybody.

 

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The difference is that pressing or holding the button will cancel your dash/crouch dash or prevent an attack from coming out altogether if you accidentally hold it down too long. A lot of times I want to counter with an elbow or sidekick, and I mess up and don't let go of guard quickly enough, and nothing happens.

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Yeah... and if you happen to press during your dash something else weird (which happens in most fightinggames nowadays) will also happen - an attack will come out! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I don't see your point here to be honest. I love and embrace the addition of options to my players movements and I understand that if I happen to press a button during my movement the error is at my hand - not on the games engine.
You're also the first player I know of who doesn't let go of gaurd "fast enough" and have that as a complaint. Alot of moves can actually be buffered while holding gaurd (as Akiras ) so it can be (and is everyday) reliably used togheter with moves.

The gaurd button adds so much functions (buffering / struggling and so on) to the game besides movement aswell, moving backwards while blocking and attacking while blocking is just purely abusive imo. Vf has 3 buttons, we could always go for the kick button aswell and just keep punch... (j/k)
The gaurd button is probably the most important button in the game and there's no way the game would function, on any level, without it and still retain it's logic / mechanics.

Your point about not letting go of the gaurd button fast enough is rather interesting, but the same theory could apply to any other button / direction on your pad / stick so once again I'd say that it's the human error,.. not within the game itself.

Your other complaint I find more valid and agree that VF does require alot of homework (but some, I for one, wouldn't think of that as a negative thing but rather a sign of a complex game with a good learning curve).

At the end of the day you should play the fighting game you have more fun playing, if that happens to be tekken then go ahead - nobody's twisting your arm. I happen to come from a tekken background and feel that I, for one, could never go back. Stay with DOA or Tekken and stay in wonderland - stick with VF and see how far the bunnyhole really goes.

Peace Out.

 

As someone stated earlier, just play and try not to worry so much about the technical shizzle. It will just come over time. It's the same with any fighter, just seams like the whole "oh shit, VF is so tech" can be overwhelming. Just dont' let it get to ya and you'll be good to go. And, ya, if you just cant get into it, then don't. No worries man.

I've just recently been picking up on VF myself, lurking here and there on the forums. No tekken comp, I refuse to be an SC mark, and no 2ders intrest me at the moment. I to find some things frustrating in VF, but great at the same time. I think these frustrations are merely noob specific and they will pass....I hope, heh.

But, yah, if it 's not for you, it's not for you even if you have been playing all these years. I'm not sure if it's me. In fact, the game feels almost to good, to perfect , I mean, it's like where the hell is that broke ass Jin? What, I dont' have to take an LS all day...NO WAY!!! It's almost, well, boring at times becuase of this. That's prolly a cognative thing.

 

A point I feel should be made ...

if you haven't been playing people much since late 1995... it's like you own the schoolbooks but you've been skipping classes a lot. You might own all sorts of algebra textbooks, but if you jump right into calculus in the tenth grade and missed half the math classes during 7th/8th/9th... you're pretty much fucked.

99 percent of the useful stuff people know that they actually USE is learned in real battles as solutions to real problems (i.e. what do I do when X is blocked and I want to avoid punishment). Reading it and doing it isn't the same, and doing it in training mode just to learn and doing it against a buddy in a genuine effort to win the match are all kinds of different.

Bottom line is, you need comp, and you need comp that's so interested in VF that you can catch up on years worth of missed matches.

Also, re homework and frames: GaijinPunch says he gets by without them, and I believe it. He's put up against good players and forced to learn what works, and he isn't shy about asking them what he should be doing to avoid getting owned. Be like GP /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Above all don't be shy about asking people in a live competition situation what you ought to be doing. That's how I learned.

 

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TP_KiwE said:

Yeah... and if you happen to press during your dash something else weird (which happens in most fightinggames nowadays) will also happen - an attack will come out! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I don't see your point here to be honest. I love and embrace the addition of options to my players movements and I understand that if I happen to press a button during my movement the error is at my hand - not on the games engine.
You're also the first player I know of who doesn't let go of gaurd "fast enough" and have that as a complaint. Alot of moves can actually be buffered while holding gaurd (as Akiras ) so it can be (and is everyday) reliably used togheter with moves.

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The difference is that tapping stops everything cold. Dashing, attacks, everything.

What happens is that I guard a string and want to counter with a quick elbow or sidekick. I think I let go of before pressing +, but what happens is that I held down guard for a split second too long before doing the elbow/sidekick and that prevented the attack from coming out. I don't have this problem with the more complex commands because of guard buffering as you pointed out, just with one direction+button commands.

 

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CreeD said:

A point I feel should be made ...

if you haven't been playing people much since late 1995... it's like you own the schoolbooks but you've been skipping classes a lot. You might own all sorts of algebra textbooks, but if you jump right into calculus in the tenth grade and missed half the math classes during 7th/8th/9th... you're pretty much fucked.


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The VF competition here was at its peak during late '95 to early '97. Even though I played regularly during that time, I wasn't savvy enough to play "correctly." My playing consisted of throwing out slow recovering float starters in hopes of landing a fancy combo. After Tekken 3 came out in early 97 no one wanted to play VF anymore. No one here bothered with VF4 for more than a few weeks.

My problem is more basic than that. For some reason after playing for years I still don't block or throw old moves on reaction. I block a knee and instantly react with some nonsense instead of throwing or doing a more sensible attack.

Yesterday I think I made a breakthrough. I use Sarah as my main character, and I think over the years I've cemented a lot of bad habits with her that I can't seem to break. I switched to Brad, learned some of his moves and flowcharts and went into quest mode to get a feel for him. I did better than usual. I think it may be easier for me to play with a character I'm unfamiliar with, so I don't fall into old patterns.

 

Well, if it's still no competition you're worried about, then that problems solved. There's like 7 people who play in the Arlington-Grand Prairie area, so just PM me for details. I already PM'd you, but don't know if you got it or not.

 

For some reason it's telling me you're not accepting PMs, so I can't reply.

 

oops, i had it on not accepting pm's. that's weird, i didn't change that.

 

VF definitely takes time to learn imo. Besides, VF4 characters are a lot more complex than VF2, VF3 characters so that makes it even more difficult for beginners to start. However, when you start playing better, the game is just so much better than the rest.

I have beaten my friend (by luck) quite a few times in Tekken 4. He plays a lot more than me but i won just by pressing punch & kick over and over again. Now the same would never happen in VF. So I guess i can say Tekken is more newbie friendly. There's nothing wrong with that though. To the manufacturers, it also means more money.

I used to play Initial D arcade stage a lot. They made it so much easier to drive in ver.2 that i stopped playing it altogether. The game was very popular, because everybody felt like they could play. But it just didn't appeal to me.

Climbing a steeper mountain is tough but also gives you more satisfaction. It's just like skateboarding, you can't just pick it up for 5 mins and expect to do any cool tricks. But once you start getting the hang of it, frustrating turns into fun. I think it's the same for everything, not just games.

 

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Kimble said:
I have beaten my friend (by luck) quite a few times in Tekken 4. He plays a lot more than me but i won just by pressing punch & kick over and over again.

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He needs to quit.

 

Training yourself to react in guaranteed counter situations is important... I definitely recommend doing the trial training section that deals with just that.

It will have any character throw out a mix of popular safe moves and popular counterable moves. You are tasked with throwing the counterable moves and d+Ping the safe moves. Once you get good at it, throwing key attacks will become second nature and you'll start to lose the vile d+P habit we've all built up over years of VFing.

Don't forget the truly bad recovering attacks, the -13 and -14 moves... those generally can be punished with some sort of guaranteed combo no matter who you pick. Figure out the guaranteed combo you're supposed to be using (like b,f+P with lau or goh) and train yourself to react high-recovery moves correctly. This is especially true of dodge attacks, which have horrible recovery for almost any character.

 

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Tenstrings in Tekken are a non-issue except for rank beginners. They've been around so long that there is copious documentation out there on how to block them. You can even auto-SS and punish.

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That's where I disagree with you. I suck at Tekken now since it's been ages since I touched the game, but I did play a little Tag in NC. Never bothered learning how to deal with 10-hit strings. Could beat a few people in the arcades (and they were definitely good by U.S. standards), but as soon as someone--intermediate or advanced--realized I didn't know how to block 10-hit strings...

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In Tekken there are so few moves that guarantee a throw attempt, that the concept really doesn't factor into Tekken play. You really only get throws after conditioning your opponent to block. Most moves that would guarantee a throw probably recover slowly enough to guarantee a juggle anyway.

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Not a throw perhaps, but jab counters, for example. Very important. Or what about WS counters? CRITICAL.

 

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Mizkreant said:

The main problem is that I feel "imprisoned" by the guard button. I have a hard time moving fluidly, so most of the time I find myself just standing there, or doing some nonsensical movement to fulfill some sense of obligation to move around. Many times I accidentally tap or hold the button too long and no attack comes out because of the button, at which point I end up yelling some obscenities. Again I understand the added functionality that having the button provides, but I just can't get used to it.



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I love button there are so many thinks you can do i cant think vf without it. If you like the game as you say i think first you must start thinking faster in the game and not stay on guard to long, you can start moves on guard hmm lets say + of Akira when you are on guard while pressing start and then relese + you will understad what i say when you do it once and then use it with you character all characters have some good use for on guard moves. VF needs skill you all know that i think that fun comes when you do something good so try to do that /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif