Virtua Fighter 4 could be better...

Before people go into flame mode after reading the topic, let me assure you that I'm a big Virtua Fighter fan, it's easily the best fighting game out there, I'm just throwing a few thoughts around and am interested in other opinions...

It was obvious straight away that Virtua Fighter was the game for me, it incorporates strategy and a small splash of realism that's just not present in other games. Virtua Fighter 2 is an absolute classic, to my mind it's nearly perfect. Virtua Fighter 4 is only "better" due to the added moves and characters. The graphics are obviously better, but for me, graphics take a back seat to atmosphere and fun. I’m also glad to see the removal of the super floaty leaps.

Onto the “asking-for-a-flaming†stuff. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I think Virtua Fighter 4 -unlike it's ancestors - plays way too fast and is too offensively orientated. Making the game overly offensive and lightning quick lends itself to button-mashers and takes much of the thinking out of the game. I think Virtua Fighter 2 ran at an ideal speed. In Virtua Fighter 4, too much of the counter-attacking seems to be based on guessing your opponents next move instead of actually reacting to it! There's a huge difference in the two, as I'm sure most people realise. And although out-guessing your opponent should definitely be part of a good fighting game, I think it plays too large a part in VF4. More counter attacking should be based on reactions to the strategy your opponent is using. To exemplify what I mean, consider evading guarding throw-breaks. Here the player is blindly mashing a sequence of buttons in order to attempt avoiding any possible action their opponent may take. To my mind, there's no real fighting strategy in that, it just takes quick button bashing.

The player is hardly given time to form any sort of plan or strategy. While fighting is largely reactionary, VF4 seems to run so fast the the game is totally reactionary - and if you're just unthinkingly reacting to pixels lighting up on a screen, what real skill is involved in that? It becomes all practise and rope learning of opponents combinations instead of true intuition, strategy, thinking and reflexes

The blurb used in advertising (something like "where those who attack succeed and those who defend must merely survive") - despite sounding like a bit of an odd translation - sums up what I'm talking about. My character of choice, Shun-Di, who uses a waiting and reacting style more than any other, but even he has become incredibly offensive. His drunken kung fu should be used to confuse opponents, but there’s no time for that! His animations are funny, but he’s not much more confusing than any other player in the game, once his moves are set to mind. And funny animations don't fool a computer. He doesn’t play that much differently than anyone else (not differently enough, in any case).

It would be a cool idea if when a fighter got hit in the air (floaters), their bodies reacted appropriately instead of just "bumping" a bit. For example, it would be cool if their limp bodies could be kicked around like rag dolls, reacting by spinning, folding and flipping appropriately when hit in the air. Just for realisms sake. It would look HEAPS better than what it does now, that's for sure! Floater combos are such a huge part of the game, the animations deserve a bit more attention! /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I don't like the bounce hits at all (when the falling player bounces off the ground and gets hit with another blow). It looks ridiculous and is totally unrealistic (why can a fighter hit a player if they bounce a centimetre off the ground, but not if they're on the ground?). People just don't bounce when they hit the ground.

The sound effects could benefit from the removal of the 70s Bruce Lee style movie sound effects (“Ptssh, Ptssh!). If you’ve ever seen a real fight, you’ll know it sounds nothing like that. Body hits should be dull thuds, while face (or skin) hits should be a sharp slapping sound (think "Fight Club"). This would really add a bit of gritty realism and make it seem less like a "fake", 70s movie fight.

I don't think Virtua Fighter should be realistic (and it certainly is not, no matter what people like to think. If it was, the fights would be over in one punch and it would run at 1/3 speed), I think it should be a simulation of the kind of fabricated martial arts we see in kung fu films. And it does succeed in this role to a very large extent (much more than any other game). Still, the fighter shouldn't bounce, the game should be slowed down and extra ‘hit-in-the-air’ animations should be added. Also the sound effects should be like modern fight movies, not 70s ones (which would set it apart from every other game out there).

You may think I’m overly critical, but I’m just killing time, throwing around ideas that I like. Don’t flame me, and don’t get too worried, I’m sure they’re not going to go and change the game for me! /versus/images/icons/wink.gif And I don’t care too much either, I really like it just the way it is. I’d just make it a wee tad different, that’s all.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"consider evading guarding throw-breaks. Here the player is blindly mashing a sequence of buttons in order to attempt avoiding any possible action their opponent may take. To my mind, there's no real fighting strategy in that, it just takes quick button bashing."

[/ QUOTE ]Incorrect.....ETEG doesn't avoid every possible counter attack. It avoids linear attacks but not circular ones (example: sweeps). For your information, ETEG is NOT mashing, it's an advanced defensive technique that requires accurate anticipation of your opponent.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />

"I'll probably get flamed for this, but I don't like the bounce hits at all (when the falling player bounces off the ground and gets hit with another blow). It looks ridiculous and is totally unrealistic (why can a fighter hit a player if they bounce a centimetre off the ground, but not if they're on the ground?). People just don't bounce when they hit the ground."

[/ QUOTE ]You must be psychic. Ever heard of techroll/quick-rise?
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"It would be a cool idea if when a fighter got hit in the air (floaters), their bodies reacted appropriately instead of just "bumping" a bit. For example, it would be cool if their limp bodies could be kicked around like rag dolls, reacting by spinning, folding and flipping appropriately when hit in the air. Just for realisms sake. It would look HEAPS better than what it does now, that's for sure! Floater combos are such a huge part of the game, the animations deserve a bit more attention!"

[/ QUOTE ]Ahhh.....finally some thing we agree on. Quit bitching and practice. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

wombatvvv, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, as you did take the time and care to articulate your thoughts. Fortunately, your academic theories are not grounded in reality!

First of all, dodge throw escape is not a "solve all" defensive technique. Like anything else, if you do it too much you will become predictable. There is also a trade off in all throw escapes...the more throw escapes you go for, the more you sacrifice accuracy.

Dodge throw escape is in the game mainly so that intermediate players will have an edge over intermediate-beginners players. Intermediate-beginners know how to throw escape but they do not know dodge throw escape, which makes them a little more vulnerable. Further, intermediate-beginners do not know how to punish dodge throw escapable-intermediate players well.

So in a sense, dodge throw escapes add a layer of a guessing game. If you know it's coming, you can use a circular attack, a catch throw, or you can wait for the unsuccessful dodge before punishing.

Of course, this is one example, but in general, I have to strongly disagree that VF4 is any less based on yomi (guessing games) than previous incarnations, though the faster lateral movement makes it easier to "control" lesser players without having to risk guessing games.

Also, I'm not sure many people will agree with you that VF4 is "faster" than other VFs. The term "faster" itself is quite misleading. For example, in terms of execution of attacks, VF3's attacks are actually faster than VF4's. Kage's punch is 8 frames in VF3 and 12 frames in VF4.

Finally, I'm actually surprised you think VF2 is based more on yomi than VF4, with its fuzzy guard in 2.0 and all that option select. Make no mistake, VF2 and VF4 are two very different beasts.

In reference to your other points, characters already float "differently" when comboed in the air. There are slam down attacks (such as Wolf's ) and attacks that cause the characters to "twist" in the air (such as Kage's DA). As for ground combos...I personally think they were put in to appease those ridiculous complaints ignorant people have of VF's "floaty gameplay," though I welcome the increased amount of ground combos if only for variety's sake.

 

There is actually a clear proof and VF4 can be significantly 'better'. That proof is called Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Mate, you were already flamed the moment you made this post by if not everyone than by most of the people who plays this game. You probably haven't played VF4 enough which is evident from your opinions of the game. Not only should you play the game but also play it against qaulity people that would simply put all of your critizism to shame except for the realism part which is true.

 

I think Virtua Fighter 4 -unlike it's ancestors - plays way too fast and is too offensively orientated. Making the game overly offensive and lightning quick lends itself to button-mashers and takes much of the thinking out of the game.

I agree that it's fast paced. I disagree that it's suitable for mashers. The game is won and lost on defensive skills, and without defensive skills all you have to do is knock a scrub down once and they're dead. Where did you arrive at this conclusion? Did you get beat up by some button mashers? Hmm, it must have been the game's fault.

The player is hardly given time to form any sort of plan or strategy

The moves in VF4 don't really execute any faster or slower than they did in VF2 or VF3. I don't see the game as particularly hectic - though I do occasionally look at other games and say "man, that's slow."

The planning for strategy is largely done when you're not playing. VF requires a lot of homework, it isn't optional to become a good player. You can't really (for example) block a knee and have no idea what to do next and then plan which of three responses you'll try out, and then try that response before the enemy recovers. The nature of the game is that you must have run into a situation several times and have a reaction set into your muscle memory - in the case of the knee most people know to throw. You might argue: "But I don't have time to pick a throw! If I just go with the first thing that comes to mind they escape it! I didn't have time to say 'okay f+P+G has been used too much and now I must switch to b+P+G'" ... that's sort of true, you can't think about things like that at the moment you're blocking that knee. You must make the plan to switch after the first or second time your f+P+G successfully connected in a similar situation that happened earlier.

re: shun di: Playing offensively is a matter of choice. Shun di isn't "made offensively"... he's just made the way he is and you can choose to try to play him offensively or not. Calling shun di too offensive doesn't make much sense when you think about it - shun is the only character who relies on stepping back and taking a drink to win. If your opponent is playing defensively and shun is also, shun wins because he can knock down drink after drink by just sitting back. You'll also notice he has a lot of running-away attacks that are tough to punish, like the backdodge-swipe or the b+KG hopkicks that eat up rising attacks nicely.

It would be a cool idea if ...
Uhm, this is already in there, how can you fault sega for not doing it? Attacks that would spin you around on a grounded hit will also do it in midair. Attacks that would slam you to the floor work the same way. You can argue "but it'd be nice if they did it better"...but people are waiting for this game to be released, and sega wants to use their time and resources towards gameplay, not towards graphical flash. I don't think this is a particularly fair point to make. Anyone can look at a game after it's been made and then say how one area can be done better, but it took a lot of work to do it well in the first place.

I don't like the bounce hits at all ... I won't flame you, but I will say this... that's your problem. Thousands of other people are fine with them and feel that they enrich the combo system.

Also it's about at this point I think I realize where your bitching is coming from. Tell me if this makes sense:
"Just for realisms sake. " <--- line used in the hits-in-the-air argument.
"It looks ridiculous and is totally unrealistic " <--- line used to defend complaining about OTB hits.
"I don't think Virtua Fighter should be realistic " <--- line used in summary.

You know what wouldn't surprise me a bit? If you learned to tech roll... and suddenly your complaints about those aesthetically displeasing off-the-ground hits dried up.

The sound effects agreed. I don't mind the yelling of the characters, that's encouraged in martial arts. But stuff like a heelkick major counter sounds like a big innertube got smacked by a baseball bat.

Ok, that about covers it.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but when you get good at the game and start to enjoy it for the vs. competition, mind games, and solid gameplay, concerns about 'fluff' seem to disappear. Maybe you should play vs. skilled competition for a few years and then get back to us on what changes you feel would be important to make. You can get to a point where VF does not seem too fast, where planning doesn't become difficult, etc. But you're not there yet.

 

Well, thanks for the replies, guys. I read through all of them, although I can't answer each in turn, I will answer the points that I can remember. Glad to see nobody went on a silly flame-a-thon. Re-read the last paragraph of my initial post in case you were tempted.

I will make a few points regarding things that many of you agreed on.

First is this funny idea that I'm "bitching" because I get beaten up all the time. /versus/images/icons/grin.gif That's not true. It is true that I get beat up, but it's not true that's the reason I wrote the letter. I'm not "bitchin" at all, I'm just throwing around ideas that I think would make the best-fighting-game-ever even better. For example, a couple of people seemed to think I didn't like the bounce-hits because they where used against me to beat me up. This is not the reason (although they have been used against me, and I use them against others too). The reason is that I think they look stupid and it's unrealistic. It makes the players look like they're made out of wood (or something else hard) that bounces when it hits a hard surface. Flesh hits the ground with a hard smack, and people do not bounce. It ruins the illusion that the excellent graphics work so hard to create. I would have preferred unrealistic graphics and (semi)realistic physics, but why not have both?

I wasn't writing the letter suggesting they should remove the stuff that people use to beat me up, although it appears that this is what some have assumed! The suggestions are geared towards creating more atmosphere and realism. I don’t give a snot about any advantage or disadvantage that I may personally get from it.

CreeD bought up the point that I asked for a few things to be realistic and then contradicted myself in the last paragraph. Let me clear this up, I attempted to in the initial post but obviously I failed to communicate my idea properly.

"Realism" is probably the wrong word to use, try "believable" instead. I meant the game should "simulate" a movie fight, which is believable, but - if compared to real life - unrealistic. There are no movies where fighters bounce off a hard floor like and get hit in the air (or at least I haven't seen it). I realise many movies also have sped up, lightning quick kung-fu scenes.

The thing is, I don't mind the lighting quick fighting. It's kind of cool in a way, but only makes sense for certain characters, such as Lei and Kage. Shun-Di should be very slow and awkward most of the time, then lash out with quick, unexpected attacks. He can't do this because he's never slow or awkward – he’s always fast, thus he can’t surprise anyone with unexpected speed. Wolf and Jeffery, while comparatively slow-er than other players, still move way too fast. Of course I realise the huge problems that would arise by slowing down some characters while leaving others as greased lightning, but like I said, I'm just throwing around ideas. Surely the designers could think of other ways to compensate the slower characters.

Another idea I had (which is directly related to the above comment) is a way that those characters could have an advantage, and it makes realistic sense too. Wolf and Jeffery could take less damage per hit because they're bigger and tougher. Think about it, should Pai seriously be able to withstand the same sort of beating as Jeffery!? I think not. Shun-Di obviously would become oblivious to pain the more he drunk*, so he would also benefit from this. Ultra quick characters should be a little more fragile.

Another little thing, Shun-Di's evade should be a drunken, awkward side-step that looks accidental, not a precise, co-ordinated slide like everyone else's. (No cigar for guessing my favorite character).

People seem to agree that there are actually mid-air hit animations, but I still don't think they do the rest of the game justice. I think it should look more like a rag doll getting kicked around – flipping, folding, twisting and spinning in different ways with each different strike. I realise there are a few animations, but only the bare necessities. It really wouldn't be that hard to put in the game, considering everything else. They would be universal wire frame model animations (not specific to one character) - so it would be akin to making six or seven new animations. That's nothing considering the plethora of moves that already exist. I don't think SEGA neglected this because of any time constraints, as somebody mentioned.

Most people seem to agree that the game would be cool with more gritty realistic sound effects. That funny whoosh (that’s been around since VF1) that echoes with every sweeping move should go for sure. And the hit sounds should be dull thuds and sharp, Fight-Club-like slaps.

You might notice I keep comparing stuff to movies. Ironically I’m not some wacked out kung-fu movie-head. It’s just the best way I can think to demonstrate my point. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

In summary, let me say that I’m perfectly aware that my post isn’t going to change squat, and I think VF4 is the best game ever and I play it all the time. I got a playstation 2 soley to play VF4! I’m just throwing around ideas for the fun of it. I realise that other people like it just the way it is. I find it extremely odd that some people almost get “offended†by it! Or at-least very defensive. Why? I’m not insulting anyone. SEGA don’t need you to stick up for them, they’re not going to be insulted by it! In fact the opposite is true. I suspect they probably would probably be very glad to hear ideas and constructive criticism from the fans! Nothing’s perfect. VF4 is an fantastic game, but it can’t stay the same for-ever! After all, do you want the next version to be better or not?

(* as a side-note, I read somewhere that people were agruing about whether he actually is drinking or just pretending to. I say he is most definitely drinking. Rice wine to be exact. Thus the red face in previous versions. In legend, drunken kung fu fighters have always been literally drunk. From the monk who apparently formed the style by getting hammered and beating up all his fellow monks, then ripping the doors of the monastery, to the famous Jackie Chan films, Drunken Master and Drunken Master 2. BTW, do you think it's a coincidence that Sam-Si looks and has such a similar sounding name to Shun-Di? Both also are famous for scaring off their pupils by being so harsh in training. Sam-Si sure as shite got wasted before he fought).

 

dropping the other points but addressing realism:
There are no movies where fighters bounce off a hard floor like and get hit in the air (or at least I haven't seen it). I realise many movies also have sped up, lightning quick kung-fu scenes.

There are also no movies whereby people are hit into the air and then hit repeatedly while still airborne thereafter. Maybe with moves like a DJK once in a while. But no movie has a VFish juggle system. You didn't ask to remove the juggle system, so why OTB's? If you're gonna have float combos, having OTB hits is a logical progression.

should Pai seriously be able to withstand the same sort of beating as Jeffery!?

No, but again, realism isn't the goal. Fun and fair is. It's too difficult to make the game fair by way of scaling damage meters. Best to have the same damage meters and hit properties for everyone and then balance the game in other ways. The weights of the characters isn't identical, but that's okay, that's part of the appeal of heavies and in some cases it works against them (maybe that's why the low-to-the-floor damage bonus was implemented in VF4). I wouldn't want to pick a character and felt like I lost because my lifebar was half the size of my opponent's, to me that isn't a fun way to design or balance a game. Doing so also would break other game systems: Remember pai floats higher and is combo'd easily. She would eat more hits per combo AND more damage? You couldn't make her good enough to ever be worth picking. Might as well take the girls out of the game.

Re: shun di's evades - he actually has a couple of custom evades that look a little drunker than the usual ones, and are often worth using because they're always fast and go far. And re shun di's drinking, I missed the argument, but he is drinking in the arcades and in storylines. Only in american versions do they take away his redness when he drinks and put crap like "Shun di pretends to get drunk" in the instruction booklet.

 

Good points. I hear you on the Pai damage scale thing.

There are a movies where people get juggled in mid air. It just doesn't look the same because of the juggling animations in VF4 (as addressed above). Lots of old kung fu films have super-hero type characters that kick the crap out of people in mid air. That where I got the "rag doll" analogy - because that's what it looks like.

I do like Shun's custom evades, I use them a lot because they do make him look drunk. Style points. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

My argument about Shuns drinking was related to another thread where I heard ppl arguing about if he was really drinking or not.

 

hey dude if your not too fond of juggling moves stay well clear of t4. virtua fighters juggle system is perfectly realized you just cant scoop people off the ground unless its a well timed bounce hit ,tekkens juggle system is just ridiculous stay well clear of it and embrace the wonderful fighter that sega has given us and wait patiently for evo!!!

 

I think some of you guys "flamed" him. He was just stating his opinions on how he would prefer the game to be. Flaming is when you argue stupidly, like blaming any negative opinions about a game on lack of skill. I have seen this same argument in countless games and in countless forums over the years. Is it not conceivable that someone can have a different opinion than you? Do they have to suck in order to have a different opinion?

I hate flamers.

 

Flaming can be entirely valid you know.
For instance iff someone were to say Saddam is a nice guy, Bush deserves a Nobel peace prize and Florida is inhabited with the best people in the world hell yeah id flame his/her/its ass from here to kingdom come.
Mind you all of the above might be someones OPPINION, doesnt mean its not flameworthy.

 

Were you referring to me? How is presenting my own opinion (if it happens to not match his) a flame? I didn't cuss him out.