What does it mean that virtua fighter have more strategies and options any given second?

Just because you have more options and strategies in vf5 any given second, compared to other fighting games, does it really make it deeper? What are the implications?

If you only have one option, timing would be what it boils down to, and it would be more yomi and luck?
So what does really happen when you introduce one more option any given second. My guess is that the yomi is relatively unchanged, but the luck part goes down, and thus more pure yomi as you keep increasing the number of options available until you hit a certain wall? But if you have too many options, it would in the end ultimately go back to pure randomness until you hit the point where you can somehow comprehend and grasp all the number of options available because you played so many games that you can somehow remember it all.

As you see, i cant pick it apart into logical deduction, because somewhere down the line my mind get bogged down in the analysis. Anyone else who has a sharper mind? The japanese Goh board game have more options than chess, but does it make Goh more random? As far as i know Goh is sometime said to be relied on intuition and feeling, which seems to be the case when the number of strategies available become bigger and bigger. My guess is that the level of overall strategy keep increasing as you increase the number of options any given second, and you would instead be relying more on intuition which in turn is best improved by having a large pool of experience to draw upon: so is it about having a large experience bank from which the intuition can draw its powers from, and how does the yomi and the timing fit in into it all?

Im completely confused about the question here, and really intrigued by the level of difficulty to analyize it.

 

I'll give you the short answer. As you get better in VF you learn how to shut down multiple options both defensively and offensively at once to the point where there are only 2 or 3 viable options in any given moment. So at the higher play levels you really don't have that many viable options and are often only choosing between two meta choices. The puzzle is figuring out those meta options and they shift based on the matchups and many other factors.

 

Im not really followibg how the high skill level have less choices. Wouldnt they still have: nitaku situations, and from a neutral position we will have high attack, mid attack, low attack, attack with different risk reward, evade attacks,block, evade, throw. Thats at least 10+ options.

Well you could argue that high skill play have only 2 best options any given moment, but that cant be true because a game like this is so yomi dependent, that any of the 10 options could be right, and you would want to use many options to be more unpredictable, since the two theoretical best options will pretty soon get predictable. I dont think virtua fighter have a perfect move every moment, like how chess have a perfect move

 

I'm trying to put it in a simple way without going into too much detail because this concept is really meta and I also think misunderstood. So below I've written up a little thought experiment without having to go into specific technical aspects of the FS system.

In FS, you can use one defensive tech to shut down multiple offensive options that your opponent has. Stay with me now. ONE defensive option is shutting down so MANY offensive choices. Shutting them down so hard that lets say, there are only 1 other tool the offensive opponent has that would beat that one defensive choice. Now the defensive opponent is dealing with this new offensive option that beats their old defensive tool so they use a new defensive tool that beats it. This new ONE defensive tool/option also beats MANY potential offensive options but loses to the offensive player's first offensive choice.

In theory, you could do a bunch of suboptimal things as the attacker but because of how strong the defensive tools are in FS, you really have very few ways to actually damage your opponent if they have good defensive, meaning they know what defensive option selects to use.

So now you have a two forced-choice situation. I can link you to a blog that goes very much in-depth on this topic and gives you the specifics.

This idea is high-level play specifically because you often don't see this happening at lower levels of play mainly due to lack of knowledge of the defensive options and their wide situational applications. There is a base level of proficiency needed at the game for this aspect to really show up.

P.S.
I'll add that when you think of offensive options, it's best to think of them as classes of attacks instead of individual ones because then you'll more quickly see which set of defensive options can be beaten with which attack. Some characters (Eileen) have gaps in their offense and can't actually beat certain types of defensive tech without choosing to give up frame adv on purpose and using neutral to beat that defensive option.

 

At high level..... Both players are conditioned to expect certain options in certain situations. You can have all the options in the world at your disposal... But knowing when to apply it is THE MAJOR KEY. Sometime just pressing G is the best option

 

A lot of VF's greatness comes from.how fluid and responsive it is. The animations are so slick and inputs are super responsive and fast... Tons of impressive evades happen in VF as part of how fluid the game is.

With the above, it's easier to note high level of executions and play when compared to other fighters.

There is a misconception that the franchise is hard to play and difficult to master. It might be difficult toaster given the amount of tools/moves each character has but it's definitely easy to pick up and easy to play and I might be as bold as to say it's a lot easier to pick up and play than Tekken.

You can button mash in VF, but I find it easier to punish button mashers in VF than Tekken thanks to again how responsive the game is.

 

Im getting the gist of the idea but i still have a remark: You said that "one defensive option is shutting down so many offensive choices" This is true in some certain situations such as forced choice, or when you have framce adv/disadv where certain actions have an expected average outcome, but what about being in the state of a neutral position?

It would also be interesting to know what percentage of the average game is from the neutral position versus frame adv/disad.

It is non the less an interesting contribution to the thread that higher level play minimize the amount of options and ultimately rendering the situation a yomi situation between two highly skilled players. It is still interesting to know your opinion about neutral position?


Yes i would appreciate the link to the blog.

 

But is it more responsive than tekken or street fighter?

Im actually curious to why virtua fighter is deemed harder and more hardcore than tekken or street fighter. It seems to be a mass hypnosis by the whole gaming conmunity that vf is harder than other fighting games. Street fighter have intense matchup, difficult links, and footsies that require insane amount of practise to perfect.

 

The game requires a lot of high-speed decision making and reads but also a huge part of it is people who don't play/are mouthy goofballs acting like it's way harder than it actually is because they think that means they're cool and smart for playing/liking it
Compare with: people pretending KOF execution is a huge hurdle because then that means they're super hardcore for playing it

 

I find it more responsive than both.

But again, I am against the saying the has VF as hard and hardcore and very difficult to execute moves on .. for me I find it more accessible than Tekken.

I agree with @MDog , a lot of this myth generated as a byproduct of VF having a smaller community and part of that community will make it sound like it's rocket science.

It's just a great fighting system that responds fast to your reflexes.

 

Its not a matter of saying someone is cooler or smarter for playing a harder game. More ambitious maybe. That has nothing to do with it , because people who play SF could say they are smarter for playing a more popular game with bigger E-sports cash prizes.

People just take pride in whatever game they are playing. Play what you like, the fact is Tekken doesn't have side turned fighting situations.

Dont get me wrong SF is a fun game, and even after they nerfed most of the tech out of SFV, they brought some of it back, because Sagat brought back Kara attacks. For one thing there are less moves per character in SFV , and after 30 years, the devs havent figured out how to let a player throw escape a command throw.

Don't get me wrong, in my mind, SFV hit cancel combos are more what a traditional combo is and every character has them. In VF some characters have hit cancel combos and some don't. Even in VF 5 FS' dumbed down state, it probably has more tech than Tekken and SFV combined.

 

Actually I now remember how Vanilla VF4 was def more technical than 4E and 5 more than FS.

Been. While since I played 4, but if you try that one and try 5FS, you will notice how maybe slightly more difficult VF4 is and the gap gets wider when you compare it to Tekken.

 

In neutral you have more options available and things like range of your moves, recovery on whiffs, strings, how close to the edge of the ring, does your character have easy access to wall hits all come into play. It's a more complicated situation but your most effective option defensively and offensively or as initiator and receiver because even in neutral you are still engaged with each other.

Here's the blog https://virtuafighter.com/wiki/neko-dojo-2afc-approach/ I use this approach and it helps me level up faster than anything else I did prior.

 

What does it mean that virtua fighter have more strategies and options any given second?

Answering a question like that is kinda tough, and too much to explain.

To be honest, it is way easier to explain Tekken than Virtua Fighter, because in the case of Tekken, there is really not much to explain. I actually wrote a thesis thingy years back, when I was a student in my animation class, concerning 3d and 3d fighting games. Tekken was super easy to write about, because of the basic, simple combat system and mechanics etc. But when I started to write about VF, I had to scrap the whole thing, and write a shorter composition, because VF was too much to explain, and is more of a 3d fighting sim, than a simple, over exaggerated fighting game like Tekken, and many other fighting games.

Another thing. One good way to get answers to your question, is to play Virtua Fighter alot more and see for yourself etc. Or play some online matches if you have some spare time.

 

Now you are overthinking. You playing theory-fighter. You already capped yourself.