Why does everybody think Brad sucks?

Why does everybody think Brad sucks?

What's up everybody?
I have been playing Evo for about a year now and play Brad Burns as my bidness character, but I keep reading threads of how they need to improve the new characters, or specifically how Brad is such a bad character, etc. I am wondering why everybody says these things?

Please understand that I am only looking to debate, not start a flame war, so please feel free to comment or point out any errors that I have made. Also, I have read Zero-chan's post of topics to avoid, and after searching the various threads, including the thread about what to give the new characters in the next VF, I wanted a Brad specific thread.


I believe his throw game is great with two of the throws having extra damage potential, leaving the other two a higher percentage of success of landing them.

Many moves that go into slipping/ducking have an additional hit allowing a guessing game of whether he will actually go into the movement or not.

Most, if not all, moves that go into slipping/ducking don't have to, i.e. if your opponent is looking to sit jab your slip/duck, you just backdash it and punish that sit jab.

He has tons of range with moves such as the V(, ), the Dum Dum(), slipping+(long kick version, not the knee), etc.

His , series seems to be one of the best in the game due to the semi-circular aspect of the . If it catches somebody evading the wrong way, they eat a juicy , , juggle. ( is sometimes escapable, but does not put you in danger to try it as when it whiffs in this situation, you are relatively safe).

His wall game is off of the hook with a quick mid elbow(, wait to see if it hits, ) or give stagger into hella damage. That and the opponent has to watch for the kick which also staggers leading to huge damage or a guessing game.

His slipping can bust open canned strings like nothing as soon as you see the high coming. Then the opponent takes a chunk of damage + a wakeup guessing game.

If anybody can tell me what I am missing here, or why I am scrubalicious, etc, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

conk out,
not "not Brad at all", just...

NOT BAD AT ALL!!!!

 

Re: Why does everybody think Brad sucks?

He doesn't really suck but I think he needs better floaters than the ones he has now or make + a little quicker and trace dodgers (I'd personally love the ability of delaying or canceling it). His throw game isn't great at all, it's not even good. Defensively he's not that bad if you know how to use ++ effectively. I think with a better throw game, a better floater, and a good low move that crumples on on CH or better yet on normal hit, Brad would become a monster. But he's not as bad as ppl think just not as scary as Lau.

 

Re: Why does everybody think Brad sucks?

The only thing that I think sucks about Brad is that if you block any of his series that go into sway, you can interrupt everything he can do with or +. But as you said, you can just stop the series early with a sway (doing +>sway instead of +>sway, etc.).

Brad has a lot of good stuff tho. If you can get them to freeze up for a sway or on wakeup, slipping left is fucking diesel. +++,,+ is a great punisher for sweeps.

His ++ can be a fucking nighmare if you force the opponent to rise in place, giving you a perfect 50/50 guessing game, since you can't evade from a QR. They are forced to guess between and attack.

And yes, his is awesome, and his + is just as good as any other 17 frame floater.

But, yeah, Brad is good, he just doesn't have a huge array of different looking mixups. Brad is best when played simple and effective, IMO.

Whoring slipping left >mixup, slipping left>throw, and ++ on wakeup is good I think.

++ is a great delay attack to beat EDTEG.

Brad is good, he has the tools.













He just doesn't have a lot of BS. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Re: Why does everybody think Brad sucks?

But isn't the BS what makes the other characters so strong? The fact that some of their moves are just downright misleading and confusing, causing you to misread their actions if you're not really careful?

Sometimes, reading brad is like reading a child's book. It's all right out in front of you.

 

Re: Why does everybody think Brad sucks?

Well, even on an intermediate level, the BS becomes perfectly beatable. You learn the system, and you deal with it.

Basically I'm saying that Brad has everything he needs to win, and not much else. Not that that's bad though, all the standard tools he has are definetly above par.

His is awesome.
His + is great, standard float starter that leads into some big damage.
His ++ is great for delay attack.
His +++ string/combo starter is a strong punisher for low sweeps and other long-recovery low moves.
His ++ sweep is pretty good, it doesn't crouch, but it's still solid, and knocks down on CH.
His throw game sucks, but whatever.
His + is good, too.

+ (stagger)>slipping left > mixup seems to be a really strong flowchart IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Pntsnfng_Joe said:
Sometimes, reading brad is like reading a child's book. It's all right out in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't guess right EVERY time, now can you? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Simple enough.

He's blatantly overpowered. That and male jelousy which Sega hints in his description clearly (but can't really say as they have to keep in goodwill with all the badgers). Let's take a look shall we?

[ QUOTE ]
In the kickboxing world, a new style is being created[Comment: He upsets the old masters] . A newcomer[Comment: New guys are always outside of the group at first] , Brad Burns, suddenly appeared and won many successive victories [Comment: Where are these?!] . Because of his good looks, he has many female fans [Comment: Players are always hated] . What's more, he likes to go out with such girls [Comment: "Such" girls?] at night after his battles [Comment: See, you don't even have to try hard to win] and present a charming personality[Comment: So why wouldn't you like him?] . In the ring, his manner is the opposite of his social self [Comment: Hinting he spams down attacks at won rounds - not popular in Japan] , and he overwhelms opponents with sharp attacks. [Comment: That and the fact you get a gun as a item might be hinting he fights dirty]

[/ QUOTE ]

 

Re: Simple enough.

what



Edit: Oh, and Brad's -cancel is the best in the game, IMO. It looks completely different from everyone elses.

 

Re: Simple enough.

That fucking picture is the stupidest thing I have ever seen in quite sometime.....gonna have to steal it! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, thanks for posting everybody. Now to address some points:

It seems a lot of people are basing Brad's playablility on the shittiest moves he has. Let's get some moves I deem unuseable out of the way.

Unuseable for now
MKII Uppercut()-even on normal hit, launch on counter, throwable, and slow. What a shitty move. About the only thing it has going for it is that it slightly moves to the side on execution, but that isn't enough. If I wanted to use a throwable move, why not use and get a launch even on normal hit?

-wow what a shitty move. Way too slow and unless it is counter hit, you aren't getting too much that you wouldn't get from a nice .

series(not the ,)-any version of this except for the bracketed one is crap. The only good thing about them is that they change position to track the opponent, but way too slow for my tastes.

(high kick)-negative range and the canned followup is so easy to see it is not even funny. There are a thousand other moves that could be put in its place so don't bother with it.

Mixed reaction moves:
ducking mid circular kick-I can't tell if I like this or not. Sometimes it is useful at very far range due to its decent range, but the lag on block it horrible so I only tend to use it from its max distance. I would rather throw out a V(,) or slipping (long kick) as they have just as much, if not more range than the circular mid kick.

,-if the first one hits, it seems the second is guaranteed, but as for finishing on block, I believe it is too risky. Good players can spot this from all the other moves and duck or correctly evade the second hit every time.

Brad's Throw Game
You got -shitty damage, but still a throw none-the-less

-decent damage, but shitty positioning unless you know how to walk around a little and get a rising kick to whiff.

-juice wakeups and decent damage. Has great damage potential.

-my favorite throw due to waiting to see them tech, and if they don't, practically free pounce for a nice chunk. If they do tech, well.... /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-great for ring outs and wall stuns.

Now I know everybody can quadruple throw break, but most people I know either EDTEG(evade double escape guard), ETTEG(evade triple....) or TTEG(triple escape guard) so you are practically getting either or for free as people would rather not have the potential of great damage off of the other two. The reason those throws do such a little amount of damage is that I believe Brad has many tools to make the opponent freeze up for the throws.

Any slipping/ducking series mixed with etc. Add in his ridiculous fake as well.

His sweep() sucks on normal hit due to the disadvantage along with the fact that if it is punished, it is Brad's ass. This is why other than for a wall situation, I would rather throw at times.

series is one of the most ricockulous things he has. Thank God they made the do no damage to duckers otherwise it would be out of control. The guessing games alone from this series are well worth a lot of players freezing and it helps that after the , a slipping (the mid, not the high) beats sit jabs. Also, this move on whiff is very close to being unpunishable so it can also serve as a lure.

more to come...

conk out,
not "all about the nice ladies", just...

ALL ABOUT "SUCH LADIES"!!!!

 

Re: Simple enough.

Dandy- that is hands down the most scarriest things ive ever seen in my life. Damn i wish i look like that dude /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Shaun- Only thing for bard weak wise is that hes slow at times. Also if someone is good at breaking throws (not me) hes kinda fucked.
Also most people want to play against brad at mid to far range which is a huge mistake. I think the best way to jack Brad is to play deep in that motherfuckers face.

Anyways, i think the reason people say he sucks is because early on no one knew how to use him. Also i think his movement and properties dont fit the usual VF system. I think Brad is just as unorthodocx as lei fei at times.

 

Re: Simple enough.

Another setup he has that's nasty, especially next to a wall is , ++, followed by whatever you want. Very effective against low punchers.

PS. Wtf is ''ricockulous'' ?? *lol* You crazy man. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Re: Simple enough.

[ QUOTE ]
OfficerDown said:

Only thing for bard weak wise is that hes slow at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

PROTIP: Do not make general/generic statements that do not make any sense without backing them up with frame data.

 

Re: Simple enough.

Or you could try something that really would work like (CH)>+, and break the wall behind them and hit them out of the ring in one, clean, singel combo.

Oops, I praised Brad - soon I'll be telling everyone how "solid / pretty good" the + really is and that + is a great move /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<font color="red">*** </font> P.S; Santas still drunk and I'm working my butt of togheter with the other elfs to sober the fatboy up with eggnog and pretty soon we'll have those presents flying // Brad - elf helper extraordinare. <font color="red">*** </font>

 

Re: Simple enough.

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:

(CH)>+, and break the wall behind them and hit them out of the ring in one, clean, singel combo.

[/ QUOTE ]

That works? I can't test it right now, but that's pretty awesome.

++ is useable out of principle that it's a sweep.

A shitty, standing sweep that you can't fuzzy after, but a sweep nonetheless.

 

Re: Simple enough.

Officer Down, that is in your face!(clicks heels together), SALUTE!!!!!!!!!!! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dandy J-You are too funny man! Officer down is actually the person I play against most in STL so he is half joking.

Onistompa-Jayuice avatar. You have never heard ricockulous? Yeah, it is pretty dumb /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

KiwE-Yeah, I use that one for breakable walls, but instead of the ch, I use either + or for duckers/low p'ers, and for evaders I use + to get the stagger.

conk out,
not "Punching time", just...

HUNTING TIME!!!!(Shoutime, that's for you!)

 

Re: Simple enough.

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:
Or you could try something that really would work like (CH)>+, and break the wall behind them and hit them out of the ring in one, clean, singel combo.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good but you can also break the wall after a ++, wall stagger.

 

Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

Some things in this thread have just plainly not made sense so far (but I'm dead serious about the badgers) and needs to be brought up / explained further really:

[ QUOTE ]
Defensively he's not that bad if you know how to use ++ effectively.

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This is not something Brad users use alot imo (it's nice to slip back and kick people who do rising attacks and cute tricks like that and go for the on ch and so on though). When you are in the ++ movement and you get hit you have a CH on you and you really don't move that far back. If you get you're ++> blocked you're -13 frames (!) (and if it was to hit you don't really get much in return - he doesn't even have his catch from it). You said you liked using it against 'ers - do you mean when you get a CH on a and someone by instinct tries to you? In that case the will win over the and is a much better option imo. The ++> has the same properties as a normal but then again if you anticipate something that could hit you and can counter this way you might aswell do . They've also done ++ so you can't go into it from normal combos with him (unlike other directions) as it, of cource, would be a possible opening to abuse. No, I fail to see how this - once mastered - is some defensive tool that Brad can rely on alot (he is good in defense though).

[ QUOTE ]
(stagger)>slipping left > mixup seems to be a really strong flowchart IMO.

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Not really. You want to go into the dodge forward once you get the stagger (as in the tactict advice) if anything so you can threathen with a move that they have to block (and can't you from) or the throw. If you slip left you kill of that mindgame as the opponent is pushed back and you can not threathen with the throw so everything is solved by blocking. Slipping left is great against , sure, but even then you can do greater damage with the above mindgame (ducking forward counterhits).

[ QUOTE ]
Unuseable for now
MKII Uppercut()-even on normal hit, launch on counter, throwable, and slow. What a shitty move. About the only thing it has going for it is that it slightly moves to the side on execution, but that isn't enough. If I wanted to use a throwable move, why not use and get a launch even on normal hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well simply because the moves are totally different.
It's done from a crouching position (but can of cource be modified) so it's a handy tool to use if you get a on someone to threathen with (so you don't get 'd back and with no tight timing (you can also do the knee if you spot a CH on your ). Any crouching>rising attack is good for a character. It's also just TC while is punch but nonetheless you use them in different situations anyhow. It's certainly not unuseable =/

[ QUOTE ]
-wow what a shitty move. Way too slow and unless it is counter hit, you aren't getting too much that you wouldn't get from a nice .

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the combos of his are the best he has and once again this move is just TC as compared to punch. It has it's uses, for example against someone trying a risingattack (tight timing) or as a part of the + guessing game but also worth a try after a (MC), a backstep that is followed (or do + if the distance gets to great) or as he steps in abit while doing it you can, with the correct distance, hurt someone who's crouching and 'ing aswell with it (you need a CH with against a croucher in order to really launch with it) etc.


[ QUOTE ]

ducking mid circular kick-I can't tell if I like this or not. Sometimes it is useful at very far range due to its decent range, but the lag on block it horrible so I only tend to use it from its max distance. I would rather throw out a V(,) or slipping (long kick) as they have just as much, if not more range than the circular mid kick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duck + is an exellent tool against TR'ers and no - none of the two moves mentioned have as long a range as it (you move forward while ducking). It's also a great tool to have for him otherwise people could evade against his threaths (the knee and punches) from ducking but since it's full circular it's always there to be able to be used.

[ QUOTE ]

Any slipping/ducking series mixed with etc

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's that hard to see the difference between the slipping/ducking as it is the stepping (and there's an audioclue - the Sssh that you never get tired of hearing =) ). Brad hasn't got any really good moves to modify from stepping etc. either. Stepping is always good though if you know how to use it but he hasn't got many moves to modify for example as his is almost a joke.

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds good but you can also break the wall after a ++, wall stagger.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point wasn't to break the wall. It was to break and knockout of the ring by just landing a CH on a move that's low and isn't even TC if you follow thru with both kicks (of which one is heavily delayable). I already mentioned that ++, what I think about ++, other then that.

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:

[ QUOTE ]
(stagger)>slipping left > mixup seems to be a really strong flowchart IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

you quoted that wrong, dude, i said:

+ (stagger)>slipping left > mixup seems to be a really strong flowchart IMO.

As in, you get the + stagger, the you do slipping left , they block, you have +4, so you can continue your offense.

Slipping front is good tho, but I think ppl have gotten too used to seeing it.

The mixup between +, series and +, throw is too slow because you see the recovery of the sway.

I used to think the mixup between +, (delay) and +, >throw was good, since the second of the slipping front series guarunteed ++ on CH.

But if you just block the first P and crouch, you're completely safe, because you can either A) punish Brad's throw whiff, or B) just eat the second on a crouch hit and be at +1.

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

So ++ is garbage I guess !? *lol* I forgot you were the same guy who didn't like +,. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif I give up you win.

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

Slipping left is the knee. You mean slipping right.
I still don't see the point in this to be honest, you can just aswell take the canned combo with (which is garanteed) and try to pressure when they're rising / continue your offense in that way.
It just like a waste of the stagger as it actually does nothing in the situation (it doesn't garantee your slipping right ).

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

[ QUOTE ]
The mixup between series and , throw is too slow because you see the recovery of the sway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you delay the from ducking forward? If so (what I remember anyway), then you can duck forward, delay and catch them with the or cancel right away and throw. To the opponent, the delay would look like a cancel throw.

The con to that is it opens you up for an immediate counter attack, and if your opponent is smart enough to do so you'd have to alternate in a ducking with no delay.