Yet Another New Wolf

Hi Guys,

New to VF in general, I picked this game up last weekend and I love it! I've played 2d fighting games for years, but I'm new to 3d. I picked Wolf as my characters to learn for better or worse, and I now have about 100 games online under my belt, with only 15 wins /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

There's a couple of basic things I seem to be losing to over and over again, and I was wondering if other Wolf players might be able to answer my questions. First of all, let me say that I *have* searched. I have also read the wiki, most of the threads on this forum, and bought and carefully studied the BradyGames guide. So if I've missed the answers to my search somewhere, I apologize, but I have done my homework!

Question #1
After my opponent does /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, can I respond with a mixup of either /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or throw?

The reason I ask is that in training mode, you can set the CPU to respond to a blocked attack with this mixup. And looking at the frame data, it seems that if I guard my opponent's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, I should have a frame advantage of +5 or so. So it seems reasonable that after blocking my opponents /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, I should be able to follow up with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (normally 15 frames, but effectively 10 since I have +5 advantage) or throw.

However, what heppens online is that I block a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from my opponent, and then I eat a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, or a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif again. Am I doing something wrong?

I find especially against Lau, Pai, and Lei-Fei, that I simply can't do any kind of attack after blocking a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. What's even more annoying is that after guarding Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, which should put me at a staggering +25 frames, I can't seem to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif! It seems that since /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is only 17 frames, that this should be a free hit. But instead I just get hit again. The same thing happend with a Lei-Fei that just kept attacking. I don't know the moves but he was just doing the same attacks over and over, and I was just trying to block and counter hit, but he seemed to hit me out of everything back.

Am I just too slow? What's going on? I realize that evading is an option, but I'd like to make sure I can get the basics down first.

Question #2
Is Wolf's screw hook a sabaki? Is it supposed to hit other aggressive moves like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif? The bradygames guide recommends using this "against aggressive opponents", but I'm not sure how. I'm always getting hit out of it. It seems that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif are faster defensive options.

 

Neither /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or throw will work after your opp does a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif . /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is a "high" move; so it will whiff if you're opp remains ducking after low p. Throw or low throw will not work either, because low p is only -5 on guard; you would need low p to take 12 frames to recover for a throw/low throw to be guaranteed.

Screw hook is not a sabaki, but it's Wolf's fastest mid. The guide tells you to use it against aggressive opponents because it's his fastest mid hit. It does have a special property of staggering a ducking opponent on the first hit (just the screw hook part), which in turn leads to a minor float. Hope I understood you right, and hoped this helped.

 

Ok, that makes sense. I see now that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is high. But /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is a mid attack, and hits in 16 frames. But after I block a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, then I should be able to respond with either /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or throw, right?

I understand that neither is guaranteed, but I should be able to force my opponent to guess between the two, and take back the initiative, right?

My understanding is that since I am at +5 after guarding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, then throw (12) or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (16) will come out faster than any attacks they have because I have +5 frame advantage. So I should always be able to try one of those two things without getting stuffed by my opponent's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif again, right?

 

If you expect another low punch, then go for the Low Punch Cut (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) reversal. Unless they just plain dumb or like the Shining Wizard animation (it is the coolest looking reversal in the game), they'll stop after a couple of times. If you don't want to do SW, try the position switch from the LPC and go for a Short Shoulder combo or a Stunner (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+ K]+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif).

Against Lei Fei players who just spam /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif over and over, just evade it. If they're doing that, there's a move I don't advise using a lot (as it leads to bad habits, and good players will either escape it or low throw you out of it, and it gets boring to play against), but the Side Step Catch (DM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif). That will get you out of way of most of his attacks and hopefully grab him. Also he does the linear string then you could just back up and after the third punch misses, use a Stunner (Ogre Chop -> Burning Hammer can work well too).

Any Lau that uses /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on block is easy fodder for low throws. However, don't always count on them to work, as they can be escaped too, and like with the SSC, they can be escaped. That doesn't mean they will though. If they're dumb enough to constantly use it, 99% of them won't know how to escape.

I'm no expert, but those are some basic ways to beat those kinds of spammers. Not that they'll help against better opponents, but I'm crap at giving advice.

 

I'm confused, sorry . What is SW? What is position switch from LPC mean?

And what about my original question of responding to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with either /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or throw, like the computer does in dojo mode. Isn't that a good response?

 

The reason you can throw from the advantage you're referring to is because you can't throw an attack. Attack beats throw> throw beats block> block beats attack... If you throw and they attack you'll either get countered or clashed, you can't use a grab throw in that situation. In addition, lag online makes it harder to buffer in counters if the frames are tight. If you have +5 frames, and you do a move expecting them to low punch again, and the difference is only 1 frame in your favor that timing is tight offline let alone online. With Lau, when you block that sweep, I had to get used to responding a little quicker online. I used to miss El Blaze's Rocket Knee there but I adjusted to the slight lag and started pressing the kick button earlier and it worked. Just try to execute a little bit earlier to make up for the 2-5 frames of lag.

Competition Online is brutal these days too... People have gotten very good. I can't wait to get my ass kicked in Super Turbo HD Remix! Shit is looking awesome!

 

SW = Shining Wizard. LPC = Low Punch Cut

Low Punch Cut is d+p+k. It reverses low punches however you have to time it right since it isn't an instant reversal when you do the input. You'll understand when you see the animation. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Position Switch from Low Punch Cut is when Wolf does a successful low punch reveral from LPC and switches positions with your opponent.

Shining Wizard also comes from the LPC but is a hit-throw. The command is f+p+g at the right moment.

Regarding what to do after blocking a low punch, you have the advantage after you block. Yes it is good to mix up throws with mids in this situation. His screw hook attack is one of his best. If you anticipate another low punch use uf+p+k. It jumps low punches and you have a free combo afterwards.


If you have trouble landing those maybe you're inputting too slow?

Other Wolf players, please add to/point out any mistakes I may have made. Wolf is so much fun /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

you can mash PG while holding forward and Shiney Wiz will come out.

 

try UF P+K (will jump over LP) when an opponent constantly LP. Then combo it into a screw hook. The opponent will learn not to spam LP

 

Thanks Akira! Very helpful.

Looking at the frame data for Lei's ppp spam really helped me. I have never been able to beat a Lei who just spams p. If I blocked low, I'd get hit, and if I blocked high, I'd ring out as he would just repeat over and over.

By looking at the frame data I see that his ppp hits MID and is frame neutral (which is basically frame advantage if you take lag into account /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ). So no wonder I couldn't block or hit back!

I take it my only chance against Lei is an evade? AshKaiser mentioned the side step catch, but I've tried just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif which has done a side throw (is that the same as the side step catch), but I've also gotten hit or clashed out of it. What would the safest thing be after a successful evade? Just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or something?

And on an unrelated note, what the heck is RAW? I saw that in the command list on this site.. but in the dojo if I press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif I don't see anything. In the notes it says to Sabaki vs HP and loses 10 pts damage. Can someone help me understand this? Does this mean that I have to do a sabaki? What is wolf's sabaki anyways?

Thanks!

 

RAW/Reject Wall is a defensive stance as such. When you press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, Wolf sticks his chest out, and any high punch, high elbow, mid punch or mid elbow that hits him will have no effect as such, aside from the 10 points of damage he receives - think of it as "Super Armour" that characters like Hulk and Mech Zangief have in Marvel vs Capcom - they take damage, but it doesn't stun them. The attacks from RAW can only be done if he gets hit during the stance, and RAW can only stop one attack, so if you don't attack from it or use second RAW, you'll get hit properly. If you go into Dojo Command and go through the RAW attacks, you'll see how they work.

If it's a Lei Fei /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif spammer, Low Drop Kick (successful RAW -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) should cause a foot collapse. From there do Piercing Elbow (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) or Final Cut (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif)on the downed opponent (Final Cut can be escaped though).

Side Step Catch isn't the same as a side throw. SSC is done by evading then pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif during the evade. Wolf will slip round rapidly, then lunge towards his opponent and grab them. Doesn't matter where you grab them (i.e. front/right/left/back), you'll a throw will happen as long as they're standing. However, it does feel good to avoid the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string and hit them with a throw.

 

Partly true.

But if the attack causes knockdown, Wolf can't "sabaki" it.

Example:

RAW vs /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif; RAW wins
RAW vs Akira's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif; combo time

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will beat out all low punches but will lose to 10f standing punches (Eileen, Pai, Sarah).

In that scenario I suggest you mixup with throw and his screw hook-> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. It comes out at 14 frames.

 

I think it's good to mention that you need to buffer the screw hook perfectly in this situation. Also, you can combo with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif when the screw hook connects as a counter hit (it floats).

Like Shag said your screw hook will against a majority of your opponents attacks. Your throw will lose though, instead you condition your opponent to defend by interrupting them when they try to attack you.

 

My bad - I forgot that bit.

 

I just wanted to post an update. The info in this thread has been very helpful, and I've leveled up to 1st kyu with it.

The most helpful bit for me was to let go of my Street Fighter insticts and stop trying to throw all the time. VF5 isn't Street Fighter where throws beat attacks .

Instead I've found that at my level, a very effective strategy against those /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif mashing Pai/Lau/Eileen/Lei players is to just calmly block, and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. Then repeat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif over and over again as they try to mash on /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. This will usually hit them 5-8 times before they back up and then pause in high block. Then I walk up and Giant Swing.

I've been called "gay cheap ass n00b", "you suck", and "fite next time" by some of my opponents, which I guess means I'm doing something right .

Thanks for the help in this thread! I'll post more as I (hopefully) improve. I also wanted to ask fellow Wolf players what a good second character would be. As I improve, I find myself in dojo mode against the characters I have problems with, to become familiar with their moves. I think it would be good for me to start playing a second character, this might give me more perspectives on how to improve my Wolf.

Any ideas? I was thinking maybe Goh, but he seems very execution heavy, which seems bad for online play. I was also considering Pai or Eileen, because they seems like opposites to Wolf. But I would consider anyone, really. What do you guys think?

Thanks again for the great help/feedback.

 

Try /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif into a throw. They'll love that even more.

Also, Rolling Sobat (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif) works well against them. They'll go ape if it hits and staggers them, especially if you do Body Blow then a low throw (Pedigree is most damaging), or you can do Kenka Kick into either of the Emerald Frosion moves. Pedigree does more damage, but can be escaped, but the EFs can't. Your call.

However, don't keep spamming /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif as it gets really boring, and is worthy of bad feedback, not to mention that anyone with a low punch reversal will expect it, and will use it to inflict pain on you. Also, don't use RS too much either, because:

1. It's not hard to recover out of the stagger.
2. You'll get predictable.
3. It's easy to see coming.

But if they're spamming, you only need to make one count and they can say goodbye to a large chunk of their life.

 

I don't see anything wrong with low punching someone 5-8 times if they refuse to block... If they're mashing why can't you do something to stop it and frustrate them?

They are using Lei Fei, first of all, and then they're mashing with him because they've had some marginal success doing that and they think they can win without putting any real effort into the game at all. Further, if they won't block, no matter what you do, you can't throw them because they'll just abare out of it.

If you low punch 5-8 times in a row against anyone with some semblance of skill they will kill you for it. If your opponent will eat 8 low punches in a row then I say do it, unless you can do something that does more damage and frustrates them more.

They are trying to play the game in a cheap and unskilled way so I see no reason why he should try to honor that by not low punching them, that doesn't make sense... He would be equally justified, if not more, sending them a message saying they are "cheap" or they "suck" because mashers do suck and they are sort of trying to be cheap so who cares?

Anyone who is mashing buttons with Lei Fei and doesn't know one of them is BLOCK deserves to get beat down hard until they learn to play with even a little skill. If they insist on hitting punch over and over as fast as they can for the whole match plus some then they deserve zero respect and don't deserve to have you try to play them "fair". You can't even throw a masher so half the game is gone right there.

You wouldn't even bother playing someone like that in a player match, but because you ran into them in ranked, you must beat them down for sucking so badly and move on, no qualms about it whatsoever.

 

Hey zass welcome to the Wolf team. i like you came from a Street Fighter background. so add me to your Friend List on LIVE.
(In the signiture, can't see where you are from but dont worry i've a 50mb conn)

Wolf is so versatile and a great character to stick with, my girlfriend is a decent game player. but shes never really done the fighting title. so i taught her some of the intricases of Virtua Fighter and to give her a chance against someone like Wolf a polar opposite character was Lion and we now have some great matches. So Lion is definatly worth picking up, just because of being completly different to how you approach the match and how to go with the flow of it. Also lil Eileen, shes cute, fast, agile and can chip that life gauge away fast.

But ive tried to keep a good knowledge of most players the only one i struggle with playing as is Vanessa.

 

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the help and tips. I've gotten a lot better.. still a newb (2nd dan) but I can beat the occasional 5th dan. I've been incorporating DMs and that has helped me a lot against aggressive players too.

I had a question - Today I played against a Sarah who would repeatedly do her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string into a mid hitting flipback kick. I was having a hard time punishing her for that. She lands too far away to throw. I tried /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif but that didn't hit her either. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif misses too. What's the best way to punish her after blocking that?