A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thread)

Discussion in 'Vanessa' started by Sebo, Mar 27, 2008.

Page 3 of 3
  1. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Steam:
    SteamID
    PSN:
    Myke623
    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    Why? Because this information wasn't officially published! If you want to add value to the command lists, simply request an update in the command list thread, as you've done in the past, and we'll gladly put it in.

    But hate is such a strong word! Complaining that "they" don't include this stuff isn't exactly appreciated. "We" are just VF fans like you who volunteer our own time and effort to provide this site and its resources to you free of charge. Your valued contribution is always welcomed.

    Well, unless you've seen every Vanessa play and have data to back this up, you can't claim this as a fact. Maybe you can state it as an observation based on your own experience, but not a "fact". I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're trying to downplay how good a move /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is. It's a fucking good move, and there's nothing wrong with admitting it!

    Just curious, but in DS, with +6 frames advantage, what attack can Vanessa do against an opponent attempting /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to net between 50pts and 100pts with knockdown?

    Just to comment on my SBO match against Caspal (the Vanessa player). Caspal is a pretty strong Vanessa player from Saitama. I talked to Itazan about Caspal and he referred to him as "fucking cheap vanessa" which made me laugh. But in any case, in a tournament like Tougeki (SBO) you can guarantee that there'll be no pushovers.

    BTW KiwE, I don't see how KoD has been speaking on my behalf or even Nin's? The reason I haven't posted in here sooner is because I was completely oblivious to the existence of this discussion! I don't check the Vanessa forum that often. All I ask in going forward with this thread is that we try to keep the discussions free from emotional attachment and personal insults.

    Anyways... about my match...

    Caspal played a very smart tournament match even if it was difficult and annoying to deal with. He'd condition me with some early back walking side kick tactics. Just when I thought I was dealing with a runaway Vanessa, he'd switch to all out attack and I wasn't able to adapt. His repeated use of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with delays in between messed me up big time. I can't exactly make out how I responded to the series of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gifs but it looked like a combination of fuzzy guards and/or evades. Regardless, his delayed use of it was successful against all my "defensive" choices. I got caught in the loop and couldn't break out.

    In hindsight, I think I was too afraid to throw out certain attacks and too worried about the Sabaki or the Intruder Hook from disadvantage. Instead I tried to play reactively, rather than proactively. In the second round I have a massive lead, and then my mid punch sabaki from Juumonji gets CH by her Intruder Hook (which is a mid punch incidentally). This lead to a combo against the wall bleeding me of around 40% life. Vanessa hastily retreats and begins a long range offense from a safe distance after I rise, and I never really recovered after that. The mental damage carries over into the final round where Vanessa pretty much had free reign over me.

    Now I didn't know Vanessa very well back then so don't take this as me complaining. Against the unwary, any character can be difficult or annoying to deal with. I lost to a better player on the day, and that's all there is to it.

    The underlying issue for me is when advice is given as if it were objective, when in fact it isn't. In the worst case it's actually incorrect, and I think that's all KoD was pointing out here?

    BTW KoD, thanks for posting the vid. This is the first time I've actually watched the footage and I've always wanted to see it again. I can still remember how dirty I felt to lose like that! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif But still, I lost because I didn't know how to fight against Vanessa in VF5 very effectively back then. And to be honest, I'm not sure how I'd fare now!
     
    Myke, Apr 11, 2008
    #41
  2. Sebo

    Sebo Well-Known Member Content Manager Taka Content Manager Jeffry

    PSN:
    Sebopants
    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    Sorry.

    Done, though I never said anything in the original post about MC /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif vs elbow; this is a recent scenario started by you, but thank you for pointing it out. I should write up what to do after eating several /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gifs.

    I haven't touched that section. I'm juggling 4 papers (2 1/2 now, woo!), work, health/family issues. Give me time.

    Guilty as charged. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

    I made an assumption Sweep! had a PS2 (which the only thing i had at the time).

    But I knew he wanted up-to-date knowledge, so I told him the VF5 entrys, because a Jeffry player I know there is no such thing as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in evo.

    Should I dig up something you said and take it out of context to justify my reason to post in this thread?


    Like I said earlier, being a Jeffry player that uses /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif as an elbow (i.e. top 3 attacks) gave me a misconception on the average damage elbows do. Sorry.

    But you do realize, as I said earlier: I didn't talk about an MC /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif situation.

    lol

    Then use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif... but I guess it's all or nothing.

    Shit, this is more defeatist than the real me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif



    Addressed earlier many times.


    Yeah; What Myke said.

    Can Lei-Fei/Shun/Blaze/Goh/etc. players hear their calling now? Never to be /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

    You're right. I'll stop it generalizing, but my experience indicates /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif killing it, and killing KTallguy's repeated /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with Jeffry's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on 3 occasions.


    Well, I say:

    This is regards to it's evasiveness and ability to limit the opponent's options. This really is a great thing, but the damage isn't that good and worth the risk sometimes.
    <u>Situations</u>

    Disadvantage; From my experience, few opponents attempt a low here and concentrate on mids or throws.

    Even; unless you know the player you're up against really well (One brad player I played always /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif*/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with his Brad at the beginning of the match, I complied with inashi or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif>/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif), it's hard to know what hit level they'll attempt.

    Advantage(+3 or greater); Attempting /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is retarded. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif>>>>>/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in this situation by far.

    At +5 DS Vanessa has /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is 55 damage on MC.

    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif:/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif fail to tech is 55 + 13 for the free /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif:/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (teched) is 50 + what ever you apply (sweep, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, Throw, etc.)

    (will update with the rest of quotes I see? I really need to poop!)
     
    Sebo, Apr 11, 2008
    #42
  3. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    Myke, thanks for your perspective on that match. It's interesting that you point out that he was delaying / mixing up the timing on the 1Ps; actual 1P mashing probably would have been evaded successfully.

    Sebo . . .

    RE: "this is a recent scenario started by you"

    No. I said this exact same thing 5 months ago, the last time you posted a thread about beating DS 1P with elbows.
    Regarding your correction, does anyone know if you still get the successful sabaki sound when you beat a sabakiable move on major counter? Seems like the most reliable thing to do is look for the MC flash, not whether it sabakied (or just abare with a move that you know is going to work whether 1P was normal or counter).
    And, yeah, you shouldn't just blindly tell people to elbow in order to beat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif either.

    RE: "Then use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif but I guess it's all or nothing."

    She can backwalk away from most of jeffs half- and full-circulars, including /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif will hit (but is low, and slower than the frames dictate, hence the need for another attack option).

    RE: "Advantage(+3 or greater); Attempting /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is retarded. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif >>>>> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in this situation by far. "

    10f jab < ( 15f mid - 4f advantage )

    [sorry, first time around I misread what sebo was saying about throwing at disadvantage. And no offense intended to haunts - people were eating your 2p like candy @ socal /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ]
     
    KoD, Apr 11, 2008
    #43
  4. Sebo

    Sebo Well-Known Member Content Manager Taka Content Manager Jeffry

    PSN:
    Sebopants
    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    In this topic.

    Seriously, I need to write a guide telling people what to do after being MC'd by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif too.

    It's unbeatable. Everything you will ever attempt will fail. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif



    I'm also talking about vs. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (when Vanessa is at advantage) (the natural response most players here have). WAT ABOUT 9 FRAMES PANCHES? Oh wait... and wouldn't elbow beat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif at +3 anyway?

    WTF. That is why I said /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif= 15 - 3 Vs. 12
    ----

    Seriously, the only thing you have left is to nitpick any stone I left unturned. "OMG, USE OF CLICHE!"
     
    Sebo, Apr 11, 2008
    #44
  5. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Regarding your correction, does anyone know if you still get the successful sabaki sound when you beat a sabakiable move on major counter? Seems like the most reliable thing to do is look for the MC flash, not whether it sabakied (or just abare with a move that you know is going to work whether 1P was normal or counter).</div></div>...

    Of course you don't get MC if the move sabakis or sabaki sound if the move MCs.
     
    Jeneric, Apr 12, 2008
    #45
  6. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    "they" = the japanese who compiled the list, presumably, from which the vfdc lists were translated, presumably, i'm not 100 familiar with the internal workings of the site

    "hate" = listen it wasn't meant in an offensive way, it's just frustrating that the VF4evo lists were so complete, you spoiled me

    i'll edit the post that bothered you and i'll continue to contribute to the best of my abilities.

    EDIT: sorry my time in the internet cafe run out while editing this post.
     
    erdraug, Apr 17, 2008
    #46
  7. Sebo

    Sebo Well-Known Member Content Manager Taka Content Manager Jeffry

    PSN:
    Sebopants
    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    Can someone start on OS and DS? I'm sure as hell am not gonna do it... I've never contributed a thing.

    -----

    lol, not going to happen.
     
    Sebo, Apr 17, 2008
    #47
  8. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    Start what on OS? How to beat OS?

    ...duck?
     
    erdraug, Apr 21, 2008
    #48
  9. Sebo

    Sebo Well-Known Member Content Manager Taka Content Manager Jeffry

    PSN:
    Sebopants
    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    ....
     
    Sebo, Apr 21, 2008
    #49
  10. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    But it's easier if you take the time to write and we just criticize you /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

    Irony aside, i suppose everybody is going to be pretty hyped with location tests for the new version so there won't be any hurry and/or feedback soon.

    Besides, who's going to play OS now that DS got a pk?
     
    erdraug, Apr 21, 2008
    #50
  11. Sebo

    Sebo Well-Known Member Content Manager Taka Content Manager Jeffry

    PSN:
    Sebopants
    Re: A critical look at Vanessa (X VS. Vanessa thre

    I figured as much. :\

    I had no idea they've been testing VF5R since February 2007!

    Long answer: We'll have to wait and see; I'll miss her reversals. I just hope they didn't touch her inashi, maybe make /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif into a knockdown low attack, change /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif into a consistent move, and make /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif into /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif (this would be a huge change, more than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for my Vanessa, lol). I'll still have a DS bias regardless of what they nerf in DS and beef in OS.

    Short answer: FUCK NO. DS FO' LYFE.
     
    Sebo, Apr 21, 2008
    #51
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