Any VF5 Ideas ?

You know, was it the E button, or its placement? Why not put it somewhere else on the control board to make it more finger accessable? Seriously. I am not the most technical VF player, but I appreciated and benefited from the E button. I can understand why Sega wanted to punish people for just randomly doging...but I feel they took away from the ground game with its removal. Using all the fancy doges for ura and ring placement was just beautiful. Hell, in VF4 we are left with Taiwan stepping...joy...

 

>> I would say at least 75-80% of us disliked the "E" button

so knowing how massive the vf scene is country-wide - that would be..what? probably three or four other people, at most?

*coff*

 

During that time period Bungle in our area we had over 20+ loyal arcade fighting fans alone. That's still not a huge number, but it shows that we did at one point in time in my area have a decent amount of competition. VF3 came out at our arcade and enjoyed about maybe 1.5-2 months of support from people really trying to get good at it and like it. Many people just didn't care for the Evade button or the way it played which felt quite different from VF2. Just for the record VF1 did pretty well at our local arcades and VF2 was a sensational success with local gamers. When nobody wanted to play VF3 anymore we when to games like Street Fighter Alpha 3, Tekken 3, and Soul Calibur if I remember correctly.

Also, Bungle it's time you go find someone else to try and get a cheap shot on. Grow up, dude.

 

personally, The E button was an asset. I can easily switch between VF3 and VF4 as far as dodging goes though. I am very used to the VF4 style but I don't consider it any better or "intuitive" ( will almost always resolve to up, not 'into the screen') than a clearly labled button.

I think it does come down to preference and in some cases the button layout and the NA style of playing with Index, middle and ring finger (completely eschewing the thumb for guard) that still persists.

I will also say that 1-2 months is a very small time to give a game as complex as any in the VF series since most people are still adjusting to rule changes/tactics and every little nuance available. Sounds like most people in your area just didn't care to adapt (from what I've read in this thread this not wanting to adapt might be considered 'whining').

GE

 

Well, you can't dodge when you're Guarding so this would never happen because you'd be holding the entire time while blocking Jacky's string. The point at which he performs the high attack, you're simply holding to duck it. When it whiffs, you're free to do whatever you want. No accidental dodging.

It may be I release guard a little early, or it may be that this was a bad example altogether.

What I do know is that accidental dodges or other assorted fuckups happen in VF4, for me and for other people. That is what I'd like to see gone. I also tremendously enjoyed the single frame/single input savings as you put it. It's not insignificant. Have you ever played dural and played with being able to do b,f+P for a bodycheck? It makes a difference having the move just slightly more accessible.

You can't really attribute all the fancy stepping in VF3 to the fact that there was a dodge button. It's the property of the dodge that made this possible. If dodging properties were the same in 4, then the exact same k/box/whatever-stepping would be possible even without a dodge button.

I already made my point about this in another post, the frame savings is part of why it was possible. There may also be something else I've overlooked though, like a property of crouch dash being cancelled with dodge or dodge with crouch dash. Practically speaking, cancelling a crouch dash with a dodge using the E button is simple. But if you try to cancel it in the existing system, by the time the stick returns to neutral and you've done the necessary down-neutral motion... the crouch dash is long done. In that example, the absence of the E button is requiring two extra inputs: Tapping a button vs returning a stick to neutral, going to down, returning to neutral again.

One could argue that adding a button could further complicate the input in that you may have tried d+E, but hit E a bit too early and as such you end up dodging in the wrong direction (up instead of down).

I don't think this was an issue for anyone in VF3... was it?

Last point, when so many people say "intuitive" for no dodge button and "complex" for having it, ... they're obscuring what they really mean, which is that having no dodge button is "prettier". It makes movement entirely a function of the stick, it keeps with the history of most of the games in the series and follows the designer's original concept of less is more. The vibe I get from a lot of people when they say this is that they simply want no E button because it has aesthetic appeal, not because of any practical concerns (and practical should be your number 1 concern).

Intuitive means you can pick it up right away - E button is that, there's no question in my mind. So is tapping up or down.
Complex implies difficult to wrap your mind around - E button is not that. Neither is tapping up or down.

I think for the purposes of this argument "Complex" and "Intuitive" need to go away because they're non-points, they're just filler to buttress the argument.

 

20+ loyal players...

you do know that's actually a huge number, for north american cities, don't you? the cities that had that many were few and far between.

where is this anyway? it's a bit funny that you don't even bother to say. did we ever hear about them on rgva/hg/vfdc? what are these mysterious BBS' you refer to?

inquiring minds want to know, and not be bullshitted!

[ QUOTE ]

when nobody wanted to play VF3 anymore we when to games like Street Fighter Alpha 3, Tekken 3, and Soul Calibur
Also, Bunge it's time you go find someone else to try and get a cheap shot on. Grow up, dude.


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so after 1.5 - 2 months every single one of those 20+ loyal players (SEE: loyal) totally gave up on VF3 due to the E button and the differences from VF2 - and went to SFA3, SC, and TK3. my, what a hardcore bunch! and it lends so much credence to your lines about preferences for intuitive controls and dodging. not to mention that all these games are so much like VF2!

please, if that's really the kind of attitude of the players, then a) you deserve the shot (weak as it is - you're awfully defensive about this, and in general) and b) i seriously doubt that most of their opinions would be worth jack shit to most informed VF'ers.

 

You have a right to like it as much as I have a right to dislike it and absolutely no argument you offer will change my opinion. Quit trying to instigate a pissing contest over such a trivial issue.

It's no pissing contest, and if I was harsher than necessary in making my point, it probably was because I resent the implication that I must be scrub for needing a button to dodge, or that I'm 'whining' about it.

I'm arguing heavily over the 'trivial' E button because it's something I very much want to see come back, not because replicant doesn't like it.

While I have no reason to stop making my points, you're giving me some reasons to ignore yours:
You only gave the game a couple of months despite a PILE of competition. You're making the debate more confrontational than it needs to be, without making many points aside from "my friends didn't like it". You're closeminded enough to use the "nothing you could ever say would change my mind" line. It's like saying "I declare myself the winner!@#"


Non sequitur point I meant to add earlier/elsewhere: I'd like to see stop animation come back.

 

>> No accidental dodging.

yeah...it's really as simple as that. not. when i started playing vf4 i can't tell you how many times i'd do something as creed described. i'm no slob on the controls and while the sticks varied, it still happened to the point where it was a major factor in being disgusted with vf4. really, how the fuck is having the SAME directional command for ducking and dodging - two vital and completely different commands - MORE intuitive than d+E? yes, it does all relies on the vital neutral, or G - and having it that way is immediately complicating it. yes, you can get used to it, but i don't know how anyone except [BRIDGE BURNING SLANDER AND EXPLETIVES DELETED] can really see it as the more intuitive version, when it's clearly the more complicated system.

here's a quick review - all possible results that can result from the command - tapping, holding or using along with G, in both games.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
VF3 - VF4 -
crouch crouch
dodge
8-way
</pre><hr />
now, which is the more complicated one?

 

[ QUOTE ]
20+ loyal players...
you do know that's actually a huge number, for north american cities, don't you? the cities that had that many were few and far between.
where is this anyway? it's a bit funny that you don't even bother to say. did we ever hear about them on rgva/hg/vfdc? what are these mysterious BBS' you refer to?
inquiring minds want to know, and not be bullshitted!

[/ QUOTE ]

20+ loyal "fighting" game fans....not VF specifically.
The arcades I frequented at that time mostly were around Piedmont Triad area (High Point/Greensboro/Winston-Salem) North Carolina. They were the Putt-Putt, Cyberstation (Forget the previous name before NAMCO bought them out), and Aladdin's Castle arcades mainly. For good competition I would also drive to Charlotte and Raleigh and play at various mall arcades during those times as well. Did you guys ever hear of any of the players? I have no idea on this, but I would doubt it. Most players were good, but I don't think any were High-Level Tournament worthy. We had local arcade and Player's Choice (local game store) sponsored tournaments and such, but nothing with national recognition that we were aware of. Myself and a couple friends mostly played what we could at home to learn and most game information was gathered from Gamefaqs, fighters.net, TZ, local L&M Electronics BBS, AOL MSB, and a Yahoo MSB if I remember correctly.

[ QUOTE ]
so after 1.5 - 2 months every single one of those 20+ loyal players (SEE: loyal) totally gave up on VF3 due to the E button and the differences from VF2 - and went to SFA3, SC, and TK3. my, what a hardcore bunch! and it lends so much credence to your lines about preferences for intuitive controls and dodging. not to mention that all these games are so much like VF2!

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already addressed your "Loyal" affectation above. Most of the players tried it for the first bit up to about 2 months, then only a handful (around 5 or so) remained who would play it basically at a casually competitive level. I was one of those people who still played it some, but I would take every opportunity to play VF2 over it when given the chance. Whether we were "Hardcore" by your definition means diddly to put it simple. We played fighting games and only fighting games. We played the ones that we enjoyed and enjoyed excellent competition at them. Whether we played at tournament level isn't the point. We played because we enjoyed the games. VF3 wasn't one of them, because we didn't like the way it was presented to us overall.

[ QUOTE ]

please, if that's really the kind of attitude of the players, then a) you deserve the shot (weak as it is - you're awfully defensive about this, and in general) and b) i seriously doubt that most of their opinions would be worth jack shit to most informed VF'ers.

[/ QUOTE ]
My defensive nature toward you is because I feel you are simply an "Opportunist". Your sole goal here from what I have seen is to be social with those you have known here awhile and to take every opportunity you can to get a potshot in on someone you dislike or just feel superior to. Whether this is your true goal or not I have no idea, but that is my perception of you. Also, whether "informed VF'ers" would care about my opinion on this subject or those that I used to play games with is just a ridiculous assumption on your part. Arcades are the ones that care about our opinions or honestly our playing habits. A few arcades you can still walk in and find an old VF2 cabinet, but after arcades lost money in our areas on VF3 it's hard to find one of them and you can't seem to find a VF4/VF4Evo machine within 100 miles because they fear another VF3 loss. If you really don't have anything to add man, just skip to the next posting after you read them.

 

[ QUOTE ]
kbcat said:

A dodge in VF4 is actually two inputs down (or up) then neutral. In VF3 you could do in 1 frame what is takes 2 frames to do in VF4. Not that it really matters -- from my experience both systems are equally effective. What I do miss about the VF3 system was f+E to dash or run -- much easier than f, neutral, f.



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The E button not only made movement easier(forward and backwards)in VF3, it also eliminated any possibility of command screwups right after a dash/backdash. Example, if you want to do a forward dash and followup with a beat knuckle with Jacky, you need to either:
1. cancel the dash/run with ,
2. Let the stick go back to neutral
before pressing +, OR you'll get his + move.

In VF3, you could just move(with +E) and press + and you'll get Jacky's beatknuckle, always.

IMO, Sega removed the E button in VF4 because the game looked more complicated with 4 buttons, not because the E button sucked.

All the better VF3 players I knew used the E button for movement exclusively, its just faster(1 fr) and NO command screwups to worry about.

 

VF5 should be 2D.

 

[ QUOTE ]
CreeD said:

You have a right to like it as much as I have a right to dislike it and absolutely no argument you offer will change my opinion. Quit trying to instigate a pissing contest over such a trivial issue.

It's no pissing contest, and if I was harsher than necessary in making my point, it probably was because I resent the implication that I must be scrub for needing a button to dodge, or that I'm 'whining' about it.

I'm arguing heavily over the 'trivial' E button because it's something I very much want to see come back, not because replicant doesn't like it.

While I have no reason to stop making my points, you're giving me some reasons to ignore yours:
You only gave the game a couple of months despite a PILE of competition. You're making the debate more confrontational than it needs to be, without making many points aside from "my friends didn't like it". You're closeminded enough to use the "nothing you could ever say would change my mind" line. It's like saying "I declare myself the winner!@#"


Non sequitur point I meant to add earlier/elsewhere: I'd like to see stop animation come back.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you took the "whined" comment a bit too personally since it wasn't specifically aimed at you. It was just an in general viewpoint of how I had seen things when VF4 made it's way into the arcades. There was quite a bit of pissing and moaning on various boards about how movement was screwed and you couldn't do this or that, because the "E" button" was gone. Hell, I was on various boards whining because my precious Taka was taken out. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif Like I said before. I dislike the "E" button and you like it. That is our opinions and our perrogatives. You can continue to lobby for it, but I see no reason for it to ever come back. It was the absolute main reason I disliked VF3 and I hope it never comes back. Also, on the closeminded point. Yes, on this particular issue I am. Just as you are being somewhat closeminded as well. On the *only* giving it a couple months notion. I think giving 2 months to a game that cost $1 per play was a pretty good attempt. If you don't enjoy a game, then attempting to be good at it for the sake of being good at it is ridiculous and just wasted cash. Play a game because you like it. I even own the Japanese VF3tb for Dreamcast (Purchased because I like VF) and logged many hours into it , but never could make myself like the "E" button. It's just a cumbersome way to move in my opinion. I still dislike the Dodge button, but in a 3D environment I understand why we have it.

I guess this is just an agreement to disagree point for myself and you. I want respond on this particular point again unless it is aimed directly toward me. Later.

 

No joking about that IMF. Sega/AM2 may give us a Cel-Shaded monster based solely on that small comment. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
VF5 should be 2D.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course!! 2D, cell-shaded characters.....just like Zelda. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif That means no E-button. Yaaaay!! Now all they have to do is replace Dural with Sonic the Hedgehog and my world will be complete. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

I, by no means, wish to invest heavily in this thread but I did want to point out something.

[ QUOTE ]
My defensive nature toward you is because I feel you are simply an "Opportunist". Your sole goal here from what I have seen is to be social with those you have known here awhile and to take every opportunity you can to get a potshot in on someone you dislike or just feel superior to.

[/ QUOTE ]

you present your ideas and when people disagree with them you *do* seem to take it personal. But you go an extra step it seems and tack on stuff to it: people wanting to feel superior, looking for pats on the back, backing up others just to tear at you. In no way does this invalidate what people say but you seem to present that notion as if it is meant to ("I don't have to listen to what you say since you obviously have a not-so-hidden agenda).

people on this board are, indeed, social insofar as they have met and hung out or sometimes just gotten to know online identities but it doesn't preclude disagreeing or agreeing with statements put forth. CreeD put in his two cents prior to this back and forth and was actually the cause of it. I would be more likely to be found Opportunist in this thread than CreeD but that isn't my bent. I'm just concerned with everyone being understood.

to make this more topical: VF5 can keep the joystick for dodging and ARM but I would be interested in seeing them eliminate crouching without the use of guard (pulling down on the stick without the use of guard would immediately but your character into a dodge or ARM depending on how long the input was held).

GE
<font color="green"> whee </font>

 

[ QUOTE ]
but I would take every opportunity to play VF2 over it when given the chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

yay! Now dust off your copy of VF2PC, come on IRC and lets rock and roll!

GE

 

[ QUOTE ]
DRE said:

[ QUOTE ]
VF5 should be 2D.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course!! 2D, cell-shaded characters.....just like Zelda. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif That means no E-button. Yaaaay!! Now all they have to do is replace Dural with Sonic the Hedgehog and my world will be complete. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hells yeah! I'd buy 2 copies of this game and play each copy 40 times!!!

 

Alright, GE. I'll dig it up and install it sometime soon. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

OMG! I can play VF2 online? Where can I buy a copy? I'm absolutely dying for human competition. Is VF1 online capable too? I was planing on buying the pc version of that one for nostalgia.

 

vf1 is fun but not online. it is very hard to find copies of VF2 but if you can it costs around $5-10 dollars nowadays (and that's canadian).

GE