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AOI AOI AOI AOI Aoi fans this means WAR

Discussion in 'Aoi' started by PlasmaSOUL, Aug 28, 2003.

Page 6 of 6
  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Well there is a big difference between being +1 and -1...Aoi's double stop can beat any attack at +1, including a low punch. [3][P]+[K] is the better poking move, [4][3][P]+[K] is better when you think you will MC.
     
    ice-9, Sep 7, 2003
    #101
  2. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    that's a neat flowchart - df+P+K, double stop. I was wondering if df+P+K MC --> double stop was a true combo - the frames say it is, but in practice it never is. Too bad.

    My take on the two moves:

    df+P+K risk -

    guarded - MC or throw guessing game, avoidable with EDTEG. The MC won't be a knee, but it can be for example an aoi b,df+P+K ... goh f,f+P hit throw... shun chouwan...kage m-upper...jacky 'moose knuckle' combo or VHK...sarah dragon cannon... etc, etc.

    normal hit- none. Aoi has a chance of staggering predictable d+P here.

    df+P+K reward -
    nitaku guessing game between low throw and any big move (e.g. b,df+P+K)
    From testing, I found it impossible to react to a df+P+K interrupt with double low escapes AND still come up guarding against interrupts from float/crumple moves. D-LTE-G should be possible here but it appears to be pretty damned hard.

    b,df+P+K risk

    guarded - same as df+P+K's, but add jeffry/goh knee to the list.

    normal - fuzzy still beats anything.

    b,df+P+K reward -

    MC - 59 pts + QR guessing game, unless the opponent is dumb enough to risk TR.

    My bottom line: You'd have to be drunk to take df+P+K over b,df+P+K.

    [*]df+P+K creates a 50/50 guessing game on MC for 70-80 pts reward if the opponent fucks up.
    b,df+P+K gives a guaranteed 60 pts, and creates a 50/50 guessing game afterwards (since most good players will QR after a knockdown and that's inherently a nitaku situation for the victim).
    So basically you get the damage and THEN the nitaku situation from b,df+P+K, though I'll admit the opponent can stay down or QR, both of which give aoi all sorts of reward for almost no risk if she anticipates them.

    [*]normal hit is sorta inconsequential for either move, I agree with dandy here. Also, the aoi REALLY has to be on the ball to visually spot the difference between a df+P+K normal hit and a df+P+K MC, they animate the same. Only the flash really clues her in. She then must buffer a perfect b,df+P in order to stuff a low punch here, she cannot be 1 frame late in recognizing and entering the appropriate response.

    [*]Guarded, you're kinda fucked either way. I don't feel there's a lot of difference between -4 and -6 from the defender's POV, the appropriate response is going to be EDTEG (or guess)... nobody should have the balls to d+P here fully expecting to stuff a goh or jeffry knee. There are tons of scary 16 frame moves that can beat their d+P.

    To be completely fair, aoi can high punch out of 16 frame attacks here, since she gets a cheater 11 frame jab. She still needs to be wary though, there's always elbows and Px and plain old d+P interrupts to watch out for. The 11 frame subtlety seems lost on most players anyway and they'll just reflexively d+P if they're going to attack at all.
     
    CreeD, Sep 7, 2003
    #102
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    [ QUOTE ]
    Shang said:

    On "relevance"

    I don't understand why it's not relevant since it is part of your flowchart from MC d/f+pk. It equates to you advocate always going for +2 because it is the only thing you have said so far. You are pointing to the right and talking about the left.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Let me tell you why it's not relevant -- after the [3][P]+[K] MC you don't have a choice between a +2 or down. But you continue insisting that given a choice between the two I always go for +2.

    You could say that I had a choice before the [3][P]+[K] to use [4][3][P]+[K] instead, but then I'd ask you to show me where I said that I always prefer one over the other. I don't. This is not the first time I've brought up this point, and I'm wondering if the reason you've ignored it all this time is because you can't refute it?

    If you can guarantee that you'll get an MC (even though nobody can), then there's no harm in preferring the [4][3][P]+[K] because of the 7pts more damage and the oki/ukemi-zeme. But the fact remains that you can't, and the [3][P]+[K] has better overall properties on guard and normal hit that would be unwise to ignore.

    There's a world of difference between +1 and -1, and similarly less overall threat when you're at -4 as opposed to -6. Those that still think these are similar/same risks need a head check.

    Let me repeat, I have no preference for any one move. Both of them are good, and my bottom line is you'd have to be drunk to always take one over the other.
     
    Myke, Sep 7, 2003
    #103
  4. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    [ QUOTE ]
    CreeD said:

    that's a neat flowchart - df+P+K, double stop. I was wondering if df+P+K MC --> double stop was a true combo - the frames say it is, but in practice it never is. Too bad.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The double stop is a true combo, even though the PS2 training mode won't register it. Just set it up and see if you can do anything to not be hit by it. It'll stagger you every time.

    [ QUOTE ]

    [*]df+P+K creates a 50/50 guessing game on MC for 70-80 pts reward if the opponent fucks up.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Having the low throw threat is always good, but you can always take the free [P][K] for a total of 52 damage and +2 advantage and keep attacking.

    [ QUOTE ]
    b,df+P+K gives a guaranteed 60 pts, and creates a 50/50 guessing game afterwards (since most good players will QR after a knockdown and that's inherently a nitaku situation for the victim).
    So basically you get the damage and THEN the nitaku situation from b,df+P+K, though I'll admit the opponent can stay down or QR, both of which give aoi all sorts of reward for almost no risk if she anticipates them.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Essentially you're comparing,

    - 52 damage and +2 adv

    with,

    - 59 damage and oki/ukemi-zeme

    both have all sorts of rewards for almost no risk if she anticipates correctly. The great thing about this game is that the higher rewards come with higher risk.

    [ QUOTE ]
    [*]normal hit is sorta inconsequential for either move, I agree with dandy here.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Inconsequential? The fact that +1 means you can keep attacking at almost zero risk whereas you can't at -1 hopefully registers with you?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Also, the aoi REALLY has to be on the ball to visually spot the difference between a df+P+K normal hit and a df+P+K MC, they animate the same. Only the flash really clues her in. She then must buffer a perfect b,df+P in order to stuff a low punch here, she cannot be 1 frame late in recognizing and entering the appropriate response.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm sorry, but I don't think this argument is a valid one. I can understand someone coming to the same conclusion if they don't play Aoi and are just tinkering around with her in Training, but after you've racked up some good versus experience with her then this won't be an issue at all. My friend nin never fails to miss the MC followup. Kofu and Nuki never did either. Random Aoi's I see in vids never miss too. And BTW Creed, I'm not sure if you've missed this (since you fail to mention it in your post at all) but after the MC the [P][K] is guaranteed and more damaging than the double sword, and is the most common followup I've seen to date.
     
    Myke, Sep 7, 2003
    #104
  5. hikarutilmitt

    hikarutilmitt Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    CreeD said:
    [*]normal hit is sorta inconsequential for either move, I agree with dandy here. Also, the aoi REALLY has to be on the ball to visually spot the difference between a df+P+K normal hit and a df+P+K MC, they animate the same. Only the flash really clues her in. She then must buffer a perfect b,df+P in order to stuff a low punch here, she cannot be 1 frame late in recognizing and entering the appropriate response.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There's an audible difference between the MC and regular hit, as well. On, well, any move except ones with that really loud "firecracker-ish sound (usually ones that hit ahrd and make you float/crumble on any hit) it's a louder and thicker sound that on a normal hit. That's my cue to hit [4]+[P]+[G] after [2_][3]+[P] or go for the [P][K] after a MC [3]+[P]+[K].
     
    hikarutilmitt, Sep 7, 2003
    #105
  6. kimheng

    kimheng Well-Known Member

    Please,I'm new,so i don't know what are oki/ukemi zeme and what is a nitaku situation? /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
    Can you explain me or give me a link to thes specifics terms?
    thanks
     
    kimheng, Sep 7, 2003
    #106
  7. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Oki-zeme: pressuring the rising opponent after a knock down (In Japanese, oki means rise, zeme/seme means pressure)

    Ukemi-zeme: pressuring the instant recovering (i.e. QR or TR) opponent after a knockdown.

    Ni-taku: means two-choice, and applies to forcing a two-choice guessing game against the opponent with a fast mid attack or throw.
     
    Myke, Sep 7, 2003
    #107
  8. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]

    You CANNOT use experience as substitute for this understanding


    [/ QUOTE ]

    For a huge part of it, yes you can. I'm not dissing ANYONE for learning frames, or not learning frames. Experience, is weighed WAY more than frames. Can you honestly think in the nano-second you have "oh, i'm -2... he can eat my low punch" ? You learn this shit with experience.

    There are very few people that I've played against on VFDC. Ice-9 and Spotlite are two that I can think of (both of whom 'study' VF more than I) and we had pretty even streaks if I may be so bold. Ice? Spot? Am I right?

    I don't go into a fight blind, man. Experience teaches you advantage/disadvantage situations all the time. I've got 3 characters with 1000+ matches, and 3 more with 500+ matches. I'm not saying that experience is a substitute for frames, but with more experience, you rely much less on the frames.
     
    GaijinPunch, Sep 7, 2003
    #108
  9. SoundWave

    SoundWave Well-Known Member

    ya i kind of agree, i never really learned about frames, i have a basic understanding of it and stuff but i really just think oh if this is blocked i'm gonna be at a huge disadvantage etc..
     
    SoundWave, Sep 7, 2003
    #109
  10. Dandy_J

    Dandy_J Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    Myke said:

    - 52 damage and +2 adv

    with,

    - 59 damage and FUCKING GREAT oki/ukemi

    [/ QUOTE ]

    fixed it for you.
     
    Dandy_J, Sep 7, 2003
    #110
  11. SoundWave

    SoundWave Well-Known Member

    ok so the double stop is the [4][3][P] and not the really slow variant. What is the recovery frames like on the [3][P]+[K]? cuz i dont really use teh flash to tell a MC but i can just see by my opponents reaction. so if i wait for the visible reaction will my double stop be too slow?
     
    SoundWave, Sep 7, 2003
    #111
  12. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Ok, I concede. This argument is pointless. It’s just a matter of style for different people. I agree on experience is more important than frames, which what a lots of us in the states are lack of. Btw d/f+pk, CH, b,d/f+p is a true combo, but has to be done with zero delay. Blah blah blah. Before I go… I leave with you THIS:
    [​IMG]

    Until the next flame.
     
    Shang, Sep 7, 2003
    #112
  13. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    [4][3][P] is the double-stop. This move will beat damn near any "big" move... if they're close to you. It lacks in range, but quick (and mid) it is.

    I find it useful when I throw a quick jab, and it's dodged.

    Shang:
    Your spelling in your image is just as horrendous as it is in your posts. Besides... a third party has to claim you owned someone. Everyone that's read this thread knows it's bullshit.
     
    GaijinPunch, Sep 7, 2003
    #113
  14. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    God Damn GP, I'm trying to kiss and make up here~! Look in the mirror and say to yourself: "I like to suck DICK!" 10 times. Then laugh at yourself. OKAY? But anyways, since you are such a bitch, here is one more just for you.

    [​IMG]

    PWNED!!
    This is the last one I swear! =)!~
     
    Shang, Sep 7, 2003
    #114
  15. hikarutilmitt

    hikarutilmitt Well-Known Member

    You make yourself look more and more pathetic each post you make, shang.
     
    hikarutilmitt, Sep 8, 2003
    #115
  16. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    hikarutilmitt said:

    You make yourself look more and more pathetic each post you make, shang.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    hikaru, What the fuck is wrong with you? I'm looking back on this flame fest, you are the only person who jumped in here without: 1, asking for Aoi advice or 2, trying to make some sort of gameplaying related comments. Even ass-9 is more constructive than you. STFU already, nobody gives a crap about your shit. and quit dissing Soundwave, he could probably kick your ass with Aoi in evo and he doesn't sound like a complete dickhead. My god, take a step outside your house play some real people then talk shit. I'm sorry nobody on vfhome would agree with your "frame is useless" bs, tough!


    Here, take a Hozac or something.
     
    Shang, Sep 8, 2003
    #116
  17. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]

    STFU already, nobody gives a crap about your shit.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    This sounds like you, saying to somebody "nobody gives a shit about your crap. Essentially the pot calling the kettle black.

    I still don't see the point of your insults. YOu make it sound like sucking cocks is a bad thing. I don't do it, but I'm glad someone does.

    Owned is spelled with an "o" by the way.
     
    GaijinPunch, Sep 8, 2003
    #117
  18. Dandy_J

    Dandy_J Well-Known Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    GaijinPunch said:

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]

    Owned is spelled with an "o" by the way.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]
     
    Dandy_J, Sep 8, 2003
    #118
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Mocking someone because they don't "get" the latest fad in leet/geek/whatever speak is pretty sad.

    I think we've all had enough. Thread locked.
     
    Myke, Sep 8, 2003
    #119
    Pai~Chun likes this.
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