Arc Systems Q & A about Blaz Blue GGXXAC.

I think SUPER SFIV is a pretty well designed game. There's a lot more to it than jab/throw/cross up... It's a balanced, fun and challenging game. It's quite good IMO...

Throws are in every fighting game. You have to have an option that beats block right? It's not just in 2D games it's in 3D games too. ALL fighting games need to have throws, it's a given. Also, throws can be escaped in almost every fighting game as well if you know it's coming, that's also part of almost every FG.

Cross-ups are also in almost every 2D FG, if not every 2D fighting game.

Basically the entire strategy of defense in any and all 2D fighting games is:

-> Do I block high or low? Will they overhead or sweep? OR will they feign attack and go for a throw? [/size]

It's a basic FG mix-up that makes for mind games, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it... How bad would VF without throws be? It'd be terrible. Throws stop people from turtling and keep them guessing when blocking, they are truly essential to the flow of the game -- every fighting game.

-> Do I block back, or are they going to cross me up and make me block the other way???
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Crossing-up your opponent, to confuse them as to which side you will end up on, is part and parcel to 2D fighting games. Whether it's SF, Blaz Blue, GG, KOF, anything -- that's a huge part of the game. Saying, "I don't like cross-ups" is basically the same as saying "I don't like it when my opponent tries to confuse me, they should stand there and let me win..." Seriously, what is the possible basis of your argument, I don't see one.

The stuff you're bringing up is part of every single 2D fighting game, if not every fighting game period; 2D or 3D.

You don't like jabs? What is P and 2P in VF? They're jabs! A jab is just a quick, weak attack to create an opening for something stronger and more damaging, whether it's boxing, MMA or fighting games.

Jabbing is a huge part of real fighting just like it's a big part of FGs. Yes, you can set up combos with jabs and shorts in SF4 but you're also sacrificing damage by using a weak attack and increasing the damage scaling on your combo or finisher. It's a risk reward situation -- speed vs damage -- that's all. It has to be there or the game would feel too sluggish.

If every single move in the game has a huge wind up and long recovery, it would be pretty ridiculous wouldn't it? You'd just be blocking the entire time cause attacking would be way too risky. Instead, you have some quick, safe, low-damage options to try to open things up. It's juist essential to the game, like it or not. VF is the same way, you use a fast attack to create some advantage and go for something bigger. You can go big on your first move but the chances of getting counter-hit by their fast move is a lot higher. I don't see how the game, whether it's SF or VF, would be better without them; they wouldn't.

If you're going to try to pick apart SSF4 (which is NOT vanilla SF4, it's a lot better IMO) at least be more specific and point out what you don't like, in particular, about the game that's actually unique to the game itself. Cross-ups, jabs and throws are in EVERY game so that's a really bad place to start.

 

It would be awesome if a jab with Jeffry linked to a MC knee combo that I could end with a backbreaker if I had meter.

 

I wouldn't mind another Battle Fantasia- game had potential.

 

That reminded me of my Tekken days in Hawaii; everywhere I went people that played Tekken would try to exploit, but when it came to throwing, they went in bitch mode and started crying about it (casual or tourney). I keep telling them to learn how to adapt and start breaking throws. It's not like they have to do a gangload of inputs either. 1, 2, or 1+2 are all they ever needed. But they took pride in that Steve Fox block stun rushdown that lead to tech traps, 1/2 life combos, and the dreaded infinite. SC players were like that, too, but not too much. I mean some of those cats played Ashtaroth and Ivy but were griping about throws.

SF scene was different though. I've seen one guy at a Family Arcade play CvS2 with a Ratio 4 Ryu and did nothing but throw, and people weren't griping (ok well a few cats were, but not awhole lot). But those same cats played 3s and any KoF, so throwing and getting thrown was etched in their brains already (except for those few).

/uppercut......... j/k

Man, you have no idea how good that game was once it was balanced. The arcade version wasn't balanced, and you can see how unbalanced it was on the 360(they made that mode avaialable). But the console version isn't bad at all. In fact, its quite playable and I think if it didn't come out so early and had a little bit more promo, it would've been an even greater game. There are tons of people on different forums asking why it isn't played that much. It reminds me of a hybrid between 3s and GGXX. The designers made it so that only the 'crazy' combos could be done with a successful hachi (counter). But even in all of that, there's alot of depth in each character and the game overall.

Anyway, Akatsuki Blitzkampf was dope. I still get on that game from time to time. Yeah Quash 07 was a dope year for fighting games. I think 2k10 is the 'mainstream fg renaissance'. Dope games came out in 07, but fps games were still dominating. Aksys has probably looked at the sales and the system of Battle Fantasia and Blaz Blue, and just decided to make something that would be more for the mainstream.

I see it like this, back in the day when you goto the local arcade, or movie theatre that had fighting games in it, you were more likely to see casual people pick the most mashable characters in whatever game, or just a mashable game over the next. I know I've seen an old vf4evo machine next to a t5dr machine. Casual cats would pick the t5dr and I would see Hwoarang, Chreddy, or King being mashed out. If I even saw someone on vf4evo, I ended up seeing Lau, Pai, or Jacky getting mashed out. Depending on the game (and sometimes region), mashers equals moolah...

It sucks that (some) games are getting nerfed nowadays. I'll still play 'em though, but it does make me wish I could go back to the days of psx and dreamcast. Granted, there were shitty games back then, too, but the good ones stood the test of time and are still remembered, I think...

 

Really Coming from the man who never found a flaw in any video game. Everything you just mention to me sounds like when the parents in Peanuts cartoons speak with all due respect. Not every fighting games sets everything up off of a Jab, short or some bullshit pokefest moves.

SSF4 is not balanced and its stills came up short. Teh addition of new characters don't justify anything. As far as me picking apart SF4 goes nobody wants to hear me do that.


about the jabbing thing. Yes it can set up opening in VF or whateva but at least in VF you have realistic options to neautralize the jab (Sway, Duck, Guard, Counter ,Subaki ETC.)

Its not even worth it Gernbergs.

 

Oh my bad, lemme throw a j/k in that.. I got into what I was typing and forgot about that... My bad holmes... I mean you could have just came through with a /counter or /techroll and would have been good... I thought opinions were distinctive from declarations by using an "I think", the famous acronym "imo" or something of the like... Iunno maybe I'm missing something... Shit sounded like a declaration to me...

Anyway, the console version of BF was balanced imo... Face (the character with the mask) I think was just an achetype that was thrown in there to be the bad ass who is wanted for something he didn't do. BF was based on a concept of an rpg-like world in a story-book backdrop. I don't even think that the pointed hood has to do with anything kkk related. That particular hood has been used by different types of people for different purposes, but thats another discussion for another time... The game, although it was badly marketed, was aimed towards the fans of GGXX, and the gachi system shows that as well. Funny you did mention 'animefangirls', because the person who ran the project was a female, but who the game was geared towards was far from what you mentioned.

I'm hip to Waku Waku 7. The game was meh imo. Rai, Arina, and Dandy J were the only ones playable imo. Slash looked kinda dope, but his moves traded too much, and I mained him for quite some time...

You can't even compare the two games though, at least based off of game systems at least. Even SRK thought that the game wasn't all of that, and there was some interest in BF, although it wasn't awhole lot. BF was interesting enough for Buktooth to break the system down, and he actually liked the game. But whateva with that...

You said you didn't even put much time into the game. Granted its opinions, but yous starting to sound like Aris. I'm mean that shit is like saying riding the bike sucks, when all you do is rollerblade and have never rode a bike before, let alone look at it. But, its all opinions, I think...

Now the online aspect of BF wasn't great. It's playable, but its no BlazBlue, but it damn sure ain't no (double negative) KOF12. In terms of being dead, I'll give you that one. But I'm pretty sure I can set up a match real quick and it won't be an offline one.

But yeah man, you should've picked a better game for your argument. I mean imo I think that Jojo's Bizarre Adventure was a better game than BF. That's just my thoughts though...

 

Battle Fantasia is the shit and Waku Waku is the shit Ill play both if im invited to it.

 

Nobody's twisting nothing, man... I'll quote Aris when I say "I call it like I see it". But whatever with that...

You didn't mention anything about the netcode, but I did... I put that tidbit because it played a part in how badly it sold... And last I checked to play something on xbl one (in this case 'nobody') would have to be on the internet which would require some netcode right???

There are alot of games that don't do well in Japan that are considered good and/or fun games. I mean people are amped about Chaos Breaker coming to the Japanese psn, but supposedly that game didn't do too well.

Some games do better than they probably should, just because its the name alone. Thats like Asics' shoes vs Nike's shoes. Performance-wise they're way better than Nike running shoes, but Nike does better just off of the name. If SF4 was a different game, with the same system, but change all of the characters appearances or anything affiliated with the sf universe, would it do well??? Data East proved that with the first FHD.

What proof do you have that these games "appeal" to 12yo anime crowds??? Or is this another opinion???

 

Geez, so much ranting from failing to understand a single sentence properly.

Quash was referring to 2 games in his sentence - SF4 being the nostalgia cash in, and BB being the anime 12 year olds.

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Anyways, popularity doesnt mean anything in a single player game, but for a multiplayer game a living community is "part of the package".

A popular yet inferior game is more enjoyable than a superior game that you cant find opponents for.

This is also why there tends to be few popular fighting games (and RTSes), since people will tend to accumulate towards the major ones.

 

Would anyone be able to expand on the Blazblue vs GG debate?

I've only casually played both games, but a lot of the system elements seem similar (ib, barrier, rapid cancel, burst, tech rolls), so what is it in BB that is considered more dumbed down than GG? The guy in the video was mentioning input related things, as I understood it saying that the timing isn't as tight as GG and countering mix-ups between throw/attack is easier? Are these the main complaints about BB?

 

I never played BB so I am going to talk shit right now!

To me, GG had a simple rule: anything combos into everything. so you had multiple supers, 199087 hit combos, it was like playing piano but instead of sweet music coming out you had terribly floaty characters slowly dying. no wonder the game was a hit in Japan lol.

After about 205 version of the game, having recycled everything multiple times, ASW was nearing Capcom-level of morrigan-recycle and maybe some team members wated to do something new.

So they made HNK and Basara X, same concept, even more broken. (i like these 2 games a lot).

then finally ASW decided to migrate to a new game, only now they have to have something to appeal to the old fans and something to appeal to the noobs, so to me it looks like the old combos into everything but with a lick of HD paint. COLORS! FLASH! oh look 99 hit combo! oh another! oh another! oh...ok this is boring.

ASW is going to recycle BB until they either make a good game or the fans stop caring. I stopped caring a long time ago.

Now, if they tighten up HNK and get rid of stupid infinites and release it on xbla, that would be my 2D game of choice.

 

i'll try to touch on this as well as i can.

let's start with the perfectblocking systems. guilty gear has faultless defense, which drains your meter while held, and drains in large portions when you block moves (more powerful the move you blocked, the more meter it takes to fd it). this is your only method of blocking ground normals in the air, as they are all air unblockable.

blazblue has the barrier system, which is independent of your actual meter and in fact has it's own barrier meter. it drains very slowly and regens over time. when it empties (very rare), you're given a defense penalty in which you take 50% more damage than usual until your meter comes back (it doesn't fill up entirely when it does so). this puts much less risk to being in the air, as you can more or less freely block anything in the air.

now for instant blocking. in gg, you have a 4 frame window to input an instant block, and you're put at +2/3/4 (depends on the move you instant blocked). accent core has a sort of advanced instant block called slashback, which is done by pressing 4 S+HS. it has to be input within a 2 frame window of the move connecting, and if your slashback attempt is unsuccessful, you're vulnerable for 15 frames (think mashing evades from disadvantage in vf5; most of the time, you just get hit). while it gives greater frame advantage than a standard instant block, it's generally only used in very specific situations as it's much harder to do.

in bb, instant blocking has an 8 frame window for input and puts you at +5 on the ground, and 10+ (!) in the air. and if you instant block the first hit of a multi hit move, the game will actually buffer more instant blocks for you. basically, it's way too easy and way too strong.

now throws. all throws in gg are 0 frame, and have a shared 1 button input with your hardslash button. this does allow for throw option selects, however, these have been significantly toned down over the years to the point where you have much better options in most situations. and, as of accent core, throws can be broken, but the timing for this is incredibly strict (think breaking 0f throws in vf5).

in bb, all throws have 7 frames of startup and are done with 2 buttons. there's a couple of problems with this. the first being that jab startup is 5 frames, so people can mash out of your throw attempts, even if they didn't predict it. secondly, jump startup is 4 frames, so they could jump out and punish you really hard if you attempt a throw. on top of all of this, the throw break window in bb is a whopping 13 frames for standard throws, and 27 frames for throws done while the opponent is in hit/blockstun (in gg, you can't throw opponents while in blockstun, and only in certain situations can you combo into a throw). throws are gimmicks in blazblue, since they're pretty easy to react to.

combos in guilty gear can be incredibly timing, spacing, and character specific. i mean, just put "guilty gear combo video" into youtube and see for yourself.

combos in bb generally don't require much in terms of timing and usually work on the entire cast, leaving spacing as the only reason anyone really drops combos.

now for the biggest difference between the two games: okizeme. okizeme in guilty gear is incredibly hard, for both the attacker and the defender. gg has unreactable 50-50's, 3-way unblockables (that aren't actually unblockable), unblockable setups that follow you (that actually are unblockable), overheads that give frame advantage on block- the list goes on. reversals are only so good in gg as well; many of them won't hit at ground level or will simply get thrown/meatied/otherwise baited, putting you in a bad position. there are good reversals (sol's dp) that can get you out of pressure, but like anything, they can be baited. and of course, you have 1 frame jump, but even that can end up putting you in a worse situation than you bargained for. needless to say, this is only scratching the surface of what gg's okizeme game has to offer, and it's one of my favorite aspects of the game.

bb's okizeme is, well, practically nonexistent. instead of an automatic getup like in gg, you have a manual tech system. in bb, you can tech either forward, backward, or neutral, in addition to a down tech. the first three techs make you invulnerable on startup, whereas the last one is quicker and doesn't make a sound when you do it, but gives you no invulnerability. what this kind of system amounts to though is an okizeme game that is much less of a "keep down" (like guilty gear) and much more of a "feel free to get up whenever you want". the aggressor has little incentive to do anything other than react to how their opponent rolled, and even then, they're usually just applying pressure, not landing a hit.

of course, there's many more differences between the two (burst systems, meter management, etc.) but i figure this is enough as it is.

to summarize:
- gg is ground oriented with air options; bb is air oriented with the ground game being little more than a catalyst for the air game.
- gg's core guessing game is in it's okizeme; bb's core guessing game is in it's air footsies.
- gg's combos are hard; bb's aren't.
- gg's instant blocks are hard; bb's aren't.
- gg doesn't reward mashing out of pressure; bb does.

 

Nice reply, very detailed! I think I've got a handle on what you mean now, making certain techniques 'simpler' to use but making the overall game more simple in the process.

It's funny though because these things (to me at least) aren't immediately obvious to casual players, if they wanted to attract more players then changing the presentation to BB style while keeping GG mechanics might have been enough to do this.

But then again I suppose for GG at a minimum you would have to want to learn more of the gameplay mechanics to be a strong player, whereas the average console owner probably just wants to press a simple button combo and see their opponent's lifebar drain accordingly, without having to learn any in-depth okizeme.

 

Very interesting post, but I don't agree with this at all. Because the defender has more options, doesn't mean okizeme is nonexistent.

 

let's make it clear that none of this is theory fighting. i've been playing ggac since 08 and i played bbct as soon as it came out in arcades and kept playing until cs came out.

punishing rolls in bb is ridiculously hard, and outside of the top 3 in ct, nobody had any reliable way to do it. jin came close with his really gay 5B, but that would only work if you tried to reversal or were otherwise not blocking.

the problem with the roll system as it is in bb is this: you're simply given far too many ways to do it, which makes the aggressor have the harder guessing game, not the person that was knocked down. the only time the aggressor has an advantage over his knocked down opponent in bb is when he does a move that forces a neutral tech, and that doesn't happen very often.

what ends up happening is that if you want to apply pressure on your opponent's wakeup (which in all honesty, isn't even necessary in this game), you have to react to the tech and punish accordingly. but like i said, since you're invulnerable during tech startup + you can block while teching, most of the time you're just forcing your opponent to block.

one way they could fix this is to eliminate invulnerability on ground techs altogether, like melty blood does. of course, they'd have to remove the knockdown certain moves give, but i would hardly consider that a loss.

then again, i would hardly consider ditching the bb series altogether a loss, so...

 

Whoever said you can get away with mashing in GG: Go sit down. Now.

 

Seriously, try and FRC while mashing.

 

Are you referring to me cause that's not what I said at all. I said a masher can get flashy looking effects on screen not that they can beat good players at the game or anything like that.

GG has very flashy looking specials and supers and chain combos into supers/specials and a person mashing can get to see some of these things by accident. At the same time it has very difficult stuff to master for expert players that wanna distinguish themselves at higher levels. That's why GG seems to hit a nice balance in that it gives you some nice looking moves and combos that can be done easily but the advanced stuff that takes you to the next level is something that requires a lot of practice. VF never really seem to hit that kind of balance in the past although that's been changing.

That's why I'm not sure about Ark System's attitude towards GG and BB. Maybe they don't wanna alienate the player in the middle of those 2 extremes who's trying to get to higher standard in GG but struggling?

 

I think "maybe" they were trying to widen the competitive player pool (and lowering the depth of that pool).

But the end result might have been a game that didn't last as long as a competitive title (or maybe it did, I dunno, I have no idea what state the game is in Japan right now).

Then again, who knows if that was even the goal. It sounds like the game was bought up by many arcades when it came out, whatever profit Japanese arcades fork over to the developers (I don't even know if that's true, it's just something I've heard) lasted long enough for them to be happy and move to the next project (or CS), and... More than enough people bought BB on console.

Assuming that last paragraph, that's more or less a win for the developers that's more than enough success to move on to the next project.

BB certainly had a long enough buzz for success in its niche. It just didn't keep its fans super happy for too long and it had them missing GG even more.

Speaking of GG:AC, they can't make a GG in-name game because of Sammy, right? But the community is asking them to more or less make a new true followup (same depth or more) GG-like franchise, right?

That said, I think BB is a very nice game. It's not GGAC, but I think it's a very nice game on its own merit and it at least provided good times and a little variety to the fighting scene last year.

-Chanchai

Side Note: I'm so excited for KOF XIII and I also have to say that KOF is nothing like Street Fighter. I love SF, but KOF is nothing like it imo--the games just play so different. To me, it's like saying Tekken plays like VF (though we do see merging trends between those two fighters).