Big post of VF5 ideas - read inside

When they make these powerful moves, they make harder button inputs. When they simplify inputs, they have to degrade the move. With Akira, he doe'nt have many moves to begin with, and these are his most important moves.

 

I actually would like to make things harder, like they were in vf3.

 

They should decrease the goddamn throw range in VF5. Not quite as small as it was in 3, but somewhere between where it is in 3 and 4.

 

Why decrease the throw range, I think its fine the way it is. The throw system isn't even a factor in "being cheap" or anything. The balance for all the moves is great, except for the sidestep and jumping moves (which need serious reworking, mostly jumping moves). I know I've said this before, but it really needs reworking. Some sort of aerial special attacks would be really nice (Kage's shitty ++ doesn't count). More realistic moves would be great, more stuff like Lei Fei's or Sarah's stuff. Jumping attacks should be powerful (unless you jump backwards or something stupid like that), relatively fast once started up, but should be easily counterable (in reality, any spinning aerial kick can be stopped by simply pushing the person while they're in the air... don't try this without proper protection and consent, as it really hurts when you get hit off-balance in the air). I think every character should have at least one counter (or something similar). Jacky, Sarah, Lei Fei, Vanessa, Pai, Lau, and maybe Brad should especially have these attacks. Finally, make Goh an uber powerful dwarf with laser eyes and dracula teeth!

 

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SenoB said:Make Goh an uber powerful dwarf with laser eyes and dracula teeth!

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Damn straight!!!

 

What I want Sega to do in VF5.

1. Enhance the graphics and music.
2. Better stage design would be nice.
3. Make some good throws' commands harder.
(e,i TFT)
4. A bit more work on balance issue.

Leave the game the way it is in VF4 evo is pretty much what I want since VF4 evo is such a well made game.

 

<i>3. Make some good throws' commands harder.
(e,i TFT)</i>

All throws gotta have a catch - the TFT's is that it's very commonly escaped. Plus, since it's such a Kage staple, you'd hear a LOT of complaints if the command were made more difficult.

 

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Zero-chan said:

<i>3. Make some good throws' commands harder.
(e,i TFT)</i>

All throws gotta have a catch - the TFT's is that it's very commonly escaped. Plus, since it's such a Kage staple, you'd hear a LOT of complaints if the command were made more difficult.

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The difficulit in escaping throw is all the same- one input. TFT is not any easier to break than other throws but easier to pull off than many other compatible throws of other charcters.
(e.i Many characters have to input 270 or half circle to pull off their best throws etc)

IMO, Kage's throw game is one of the best as it is and it wouldn't hurt the balance of game much if the command of TFT becomes harder.

 

TFT also requires you to do specific combinations depending on which character (how heavy), where as a 270 throw will get the same damage regardless of which character the opponent is. I can perfect GS more consistently than: TFT, f,f, d+p+k, FCf+k, d+b+pkg,u+b+k+g . (The TFT also has the canned 60 damage u+p+g after the initial b+p+g, but I naturally assume you are refering the traditional TFT follow ups).

The command for the actual throw input is while not difficult, the actual follow ups necessary for maximum damage are much more difficult than a 270 rotation imo. If you compare the input for a perfect GS, or KS from Wolf, you are getting basically 80 damage always, with relatively simple input, just directional rotation and then p+g . But with TFT, you are required not only the directional input of a throw (only one direction), but it's necessary to often perform much more complex, modified and g-cancel strings than simply rotating the stick.
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Sure you can say all throws are escaped the same (with the excetion of Shun's 270 in ver C. and down[?]), but it is alot more difficult to escape characters throw direction that have throw directions in relatively inconsistent places, such as d+p+g. While Wolf (probably) has a higher (average) damage output with his throws, he lacks a downward throw direction, which Kage does not. IMO, and from what I can see, the d+p+g direction is frequently less escaped than other directions, simply due to the extra amount of time it takes to input the command necessart to escape a throw in that direction.

Yeah sure it only takes a directional tap and p+g to escape a throw, but why do often Jeff,Wolf,Kage etc. usually attempt the d+p+g direction throws without having them escaped?
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When I see throw range, I think two things:

-the distance between characters that is allowable in order for a standard high throw to connect onto a guarding/recovering/nuetral opponent.

-the range of time you have for a low throw to connect based on an opponents recovery of dashes (standing and crouching), or the opponent attempting fuzzy gaurding out of a potential throw.

There are times where it looks as if I am crouching, and then my opponent as Kage enters, b,d+p+g, and as I see the throw animation, I attempt to rise and punish it with a high throw, but end up rising during the frames were throw is still applicable to catch me, and I end up getting thrown. Other times, I will seemingly be out of range, and a throw animation will literally pull me in for the execution, such as Wolf cd'ing into df,df+p+g, there are times were I will block the CPU's QCB+p,p (CPU as Wolf) and then I will follow with df,df+p+g as Wolf, and even without cd'ing under the second p hit, it looks as if I instantly grab him from a position (distance) of which I should not be able to.

This is all just theory fighter for the most part, so oh well. I think that the current throw ranges are acceptable, it's just some of the collision detection and animation needs to be fine tuned so as not to be mistaken for legitimate properties of throwing in VF.

 

TFT also requires you to do specific combinations depending on which character (how heavy), where as a 270 throw will get the same damage regardless of which character the opponent is. I can perfect GS more consistently than: TFT, f,f, d+p+k, FCf+k, d+b+pkg,u+b+k+g . (The TFT also has the canned 60 damage u+p+g after the initial b+p+g, but I naturally assume you are refering the traditional TFT follow ups).
The command for the actual throw input is while not difficult, the actual follow ups necessary for maximum damage are much more difficult than a 270 rotation imo.

->What significant about being an one directional input throw is it can be pull off in any situation such as after a low punch hit, or a high punch hit. One low punch TFT=> end of a round by ring out combo.


-> I disagree.
TFT combos are basic things to be a skilled Kage player. If you are a skilled Kage player, TFT combo has to be felt like a routine for you, IMO. Ask around.


Sure you can say all throws are escaped the same (with the excetion of Shun's 270 in ver C. and down[?]), but it is alot more difficult to escape characters throw direction that have throw directions in relatively inconsistent places, such as d+p+g. While Wolf (probably) has a higher (average) damage output with his throws, he lacks a downward throw direction, which Kage does not. IMO, and from what I can see, the d+p+g direction is frequently less escaped than other directions, simply due to the extra amount of time it takes to input the command necessart to escape a throw in that direction. What significant about being an one directional input throw is it can be pull off in any situation such as after a low punch hit, or a high punch hit. One low punch TFT=> end of a round by ring out combo. Take a note that I am not saying that TFT needs to be taken out or something. It is too easy to pull off compared to other throws.


=> Does it need extra amount of time to input +
compared to other directions? Well, maybe it depends on people, but I don't really understand why you are referring to + for TFT's input issue.

Yeah sure it only takes a directional tap and p+g to escape a throw, but why do often Jeff,Wolf,Kage etc. usually attempt the d+p+g direction throws without having them escaped?

-> lol. Ok. People get thrown easily by Jeffry's down throw has not a lot to do with down direction being hard to escape. It is because Jeffry's best two directions happen to be and . Wolf doesn't even have +, and in Kage's case, people do escape down and back so gets escaped a lot.


In short, If TFT combos are hard to pull off for you, you need to do more practice before saying that TFT input needs to be + since its followup combos are very hard to pull off.

-Maddy-

 

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What significant about being an one directional input throw is it can be pull off in any situation such as after a low punch hit, or a high punch hit.

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And after you get low punched, etc. you can just as easily enter in the b+p+g escape (which amazingly, people do all the time!), I don't quite understad your point, seeing as flowcharts into throw are basically universal for all characters (such as the ones you described, lp, hp etc.)

By the follow ups to TFT being difficult, I meant that it encompasses alot more than just doing a 270 rotation on a stick and pressing p+g, I didn't mean that the commands were overly difficult, but that they require effort that is definately unecessary for 270 style throws or equivalent damage. And saying something is 'routine' is not accurate in this case imo, I have not seen one kage player get every single TFT combo on the level of consistency you are referring to.

Have you seen Creed's video tutorial of the Sarah vs Kage match, perhaps another trip to #barrytbot can solve this?
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Does it need extra amount of time to input d+p+g compared to other directions? Well, maybe it depends on people...

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In theory all throws are escaped in the same way (a direction and p+g, or nuetral), this discussion will get no were....
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One low punch TFT=> end of a round by ring out combo.[TFT] is too easy to pull off compared to other throws.

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ok..but can't you just simply enter in a b+p+g throw esacpe to escape Kage's TFT? (Tutorial Video)
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Why do think TFT is imbalanced, the amount of time it takes to get all the TFT combos learned correctly per character, the ring out combos, the wall variations, and other odd TFT things, is definately less than the amount of time it takes to get your GS at the 'fast' level consistently?

Should GS be nerfed, I mean 100 potential damage for a simple 270 throw? no..because entering in f+p+g will escape that throw under all condiditions..just like TFT

TFT has supposedly routine follow ups, which are all easy to do, but yet yield high end damage for Kage with little effort...so does Lei's df+p+g need a nerf too, seeing as all the follow ups are routine?
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TFT needs to be changed how it was in VF1, and 2, with the same input...or was it VF3 that they changed the input from b+p+g to b+p+g..or 4 ver. B...damn I am confoosed

 

Maddy,

While I undertand what you're saying: that the TFT is easily done relative to it's high damage/death potential (or relative to the commands for other big power throws); there's a few reasons I wouldn't change the command.

1. Since Kage is a ninja, I think the fact that almost all of his best moves can be executed VERY quickly and easily is part of his play style. d+K+G, d/f+P, b+K, f+P, Jumonji P+K and K+G, dodge attack, u/f+K+G, d/f+P+G, f+P+G, D/F+P, and of course b+P+G. While there are of course exceptions (b, b+K+G), when I used to play Kage a little, I felt that as a character, he was more about using the right move at the right time, and since some of his best moves are either a little slow (d/f+P, u/f+K+G) or aren't terribly powerful (D/F+P, d+K+G), I think making input an issue would change the nature of the character. I feel your pain as an Akira player myself, having to do all that work for similar damage in many cases (the ST Combo is much harder than the best TFT combos, and does less damage); but at the end of the day, input is actually more of an issue for Kage already than it is for just about all other characters aside from Aki. Almost ALL characters have easy, flick of the wrist input for every move, it's normal.

2. Even if the command WERE changed, the good Kage players (the ones that inspire us to come up with suggestions like changing the TFT input /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif) would still get the move out whenever they wanted, in the tightest of situations. People that couldn't do it are the same people that probably couldn't follow up with the best combos anyway. Even if it was changed to ++, people would learn to do it at lightning speed. When VF4 came out, everyone cried about Kage's elbow, and how weak he was overall, but in the end, he's right back where he always will be, in the Big 4: Aki, Lau, Jacky, and Kage.

3. If I were going to change something about Kage, I'd choose one of these things instead /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif, knowing that it would actually make a difference as the person who has to play against Kage:

make +K+G mid-disadvantage on guard, not even. I know it's slow, but it goes over lows and is hard as hell to dodge, Kage should have to play a little defense after it's guarded, whereas in most real cases, he's able to continue the offensive.

make Jumonji P+K either Sabaki less, or Throw Counterable.

make a TE'd TFT throw counterable /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

make +P recover high

no advantage after guarded PPb+P

etc...

any of these changes would be more appealing to me than changing the input of the TFT, but at the end of the day, I think Kage's pretty balanced. The one change I would like to see made to him is to somehow encourage players to use his more colorful moves, instead of playing in the somewhat "typical" style we usually see (I'm not talking about you, Eric).

Spotlite

p.s. breaking throws ending in Down isn't any harder than any other direction, in fact, I break d throws on accident much more than f, d/f, or b ending throws.

p.s.s. I can't believe I just wrote a post defending Kage... cheap bastard!

 

TFT+combos is about 100% easier than fast GS or FC throws or 270's.

It doesn't matter what you have to do AFTER the throw, you're opponent can't do anything about it at that point anyway. With a harder motion to excecute the actual throw, your opponent might often get a longer window to react. It's a world of difference.

 

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spotlite said:

1. make +K+G mid-disadvantage on guard, not even. I know it's slow, but it goes over lows and is hard as hell to dodge, Kage should have to play a little defense after it's guarded, whereas in most real cases, he's able to continue the offensive.

2. make Jumonji P+K either Sabaki less, or Throw Counterable.

3. make a TE'd TFT throw counterable /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

4. make +P recover high

5. no advantage after guarded PPb+P



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1. It's very easy to dodge, due to it's long startup. Stop +ing so much. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

2. WTF, knees and other 17 frame floaters own that move.

3. lol

4. that's fair

5. You can crouch the last hit...

 

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spotlite said:

1. Since Kage is a ninja, I think the fact that almost all of his best moves can be executed VERY quickly and easily is part of his play style.

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2. Since Akira is a Japanese dude in a gi, I think he should have a hadouken.

 

Actually, I would like to see Kage's knee changed from to +. From the perspective of somebody who isn't a veteran Kage player, the current motion is out of place with the rest of his stuff - as previously stated, SF-style commands instead of double taps. The knee looks and feels a lot like his DP, it's definitely in the same specialized class as the rest of his direction+K+G moves, and it would make the guy much easier to play for newbies who can't buffer their correctly.

 

Re: lol

Heh, you missed the point Dandy...

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TFT+combos is about 100% easier than fast GS or FC throws or 270's.

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I meant that a simple 270 motion, is much easier than having to know all of the TFT combos, (all aspects of TFT) meaning the entire learning process. Don't tell me that learning all of the TFT combos is easier than learning how to do a 270 command...
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It doesn't matter what you have to do AFTER the throw

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heh...I think it does matter what you do after the throw, you can't just press b+p+g and get the knee etc...
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you're opponent can't do anything about it at that point anyway

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As opposed to anyother throw were they can?
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With a harder motion to excecute the actual throw, your opponent might often get a longer window to react. It's a world of difference.

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Read spotlites post, TFT has been b+p+g for ten years now...there are reasons why it is has been that way..
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The PM you sent me was fucked up..wth? Make sure you send it to the right person next time, ok?

 

Hey hey, don't go there Danyboy. If we're going to gave Akira the hadouken. You better include the fireball and the spinning kick because it's a package deal baby. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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kungfusmurf said:

Hey hey, don't go there Danyboy. If we're going to gave Akira the hadouken. You better include the fireball and the spinning kick because it's a package deal baby. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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You mean dragon punch and spinning kick?

Cause hadouken is fireball. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

yeah that's what I meant, hehe. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif