Bonus characters from the Shenmue series ?

If anyone could do it well it's sega, I agree. However -because- sega is so good at making new characters and game balance and interesting designs, I'd rather they poured their efforts into that.

I guess another way to make my point is, why WOULD you want recognizable crossovers and rehashes when you already KNOW you're guaranteed interesting and playable new characters? Just yearning for something like that almost seems like saying "sega's VF characters are too boring to me, they should import their other game characters".

 

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ONISTOMPA said:
The Shenmue characters are human and far from being retarded, cheesy pallette swaps. Based on AM2s track record, I strongly doubt balance being an issue. Unlike some of you I trust them 100 %. Also, Shenmue is one of Yu Suzukis masterpieces, far but I mean far from being low budget and it's characters were given as much if not more attention and detail to than VFs. I can't believe some of the comparisons /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif True Ogre, Gon, Dr. B., bears, kangaroos, monkeys, boats, cars... I understand if some of you don't like the game but damn, quit insulting it please. And how can a couple of characters turn the game into another fighters megamix ?


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I can totally understand where you're coming from, and the comparisons really aren't fair. Creed's post pretty much summed up how I feel, so there isn't much to say.

Except that's just my preference. There hasn't been one crossover character that I thought went well besides Yoshimitsu into the Soul Calibur series. Most other crossovers seemed cheesy and the characters seemed out of place; even when they seemed like a great idea. VF is the last fighter to not follow that trend, and it would be my preference to keep it that way. I respect you and your opinion, but that's just how I feel. Besides, most of the Shenmue characters that people mentioned were based off of VF characters. Why have two similar styles again when it's taken Sega this long to make every character different (Lau and Pai were very similar in the beginning)?

Just my honest opinion. The final choice is up to Sega, and no matter what they choose I'm sure VF will live up to expectations. I just don't want Sega to follow those trends.

 

Because sometimes it's fun. Again. just because they are hidding does not = being inferior. It can be fun to see a character your fond of in your favorite fighting game. I think it would be a blast to play Ryo in VF. Sega could tweak him, import him, and it would be a lot of fun. Same with Lan-di (that how you spell his name?). Look at how much hype SC2 has gotten from bringing in "rehashed" characters...

 

I think Creed hit the nail, and here's a different way to think about it:

Game developers have a finite amount of time and resources to spend developing a game. Would you rather they spend that extra time porting over some secret, "for fun" character? Or would you rather they spend that time perfecting the main characters of the game?

Sure, given enough time and money, you can have 20, 30, 100 characters in a fighting game--and still make it balanced. But life doesn't work that way. Remember that it took 5 versions (or rather, 3 in pre-Evo and 2 in Evo) to get the balance that we have now for VF4.

 

Going by the philosophy, should we remove Aoi, Shun, Lion, Goh, Brad, and Vanessa since Sega could of spent a better time just perfecting the original cast from 1?

 

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Shadowdean said:

Going by the philosophy, should we remove Aoi, Shun, Lion, Goh, Brad, and Vanessa since Sega could of spent a better time just perfecting the original cast from 1?

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No offense, but it seems that you're entirely ignoring what Creed and Ice-9 are trying to say, and nit-picking at easy comebacks.

He meant original cast as in original creations . Not crossover characters. Original character designs. Even if they did add some Shenmue characters in VF, the more popular ones already fight very similarly to the VF cast. Would you rather have a "similar-to-Akira" secret/special character? Or would you rather have a brand new design, and a brand new fighting style?

I'm not denying that it would be fun, but like Ice said, time is a limited commodity when it comes to game-making. If they made new fighters like they said they would (a korean style and a military style) and added Shenmue characters, then the new fighters won't have as good an induction into VF as past characters have had, and there won't be enough time to tweak the Shenmue characters to fit in and maintain a balance, PLUS the Shenmue characters will closely resemble characters that already exist.

I like having characters "just for fun". It's just that I'd rather let Sega create fresh new designs, especially since they're very good at creating fresh new designs imho. And you guys are right. Secret characters don't mean unbalance. But I'd very much rather see characters made fresh and new in this fighting game. This whole thing boils down to making a decision out of these choices.

1. You rather see Sega spend their time making new fighters. No crossovers, but the same amount of time they spent designing past characters for their introduction will be spent on these characters, so quality will be similar.

2. You rather see crossover characters and no new fighters. Crossovers will be tweaked to fit in. Balance will be preserved. It's all good. Only problem is that they resemble some of the VF cast since they were based on the VF cast.

3. You want both new characters and crossovers. Unless Sega takes longer in making the game, it will be noticeable that less time was spent for each of these characters. If Sega does take their time, then balance will be preserved, and everyone will be happy. But the crossovers will still resemble VF characters. And even if Sega completely changed the crossovers so that they don't, the people who wanted the crossovers will gripe that they changed them, and probably would rather have brand new characters in their place.

 

It's all about getting marginal beneft to equal marginal cost.

 

Guys, It's like everytime an argument gets crushed, someone comes up with another one and another one. Who wouldn't want new faces and fighting styles ? How do you want to keep people interesred in your game if you don't add new characters ? (no brainer) No I don't wanna see them bring crossovers, and no new faces. While I agree that Ryo has SOME of Akiras moves, he doesn't play one bit like him. You need more skill to play with Akira and you guys know it. Ryo has a different feel and has a different movelist. (Sarah and Jacky = same fighting style but they don't play the same) same goes for Lan di. About the time issue, I can wait a little longer if it means having two fresh new characters + a couple from the Shenmue cast why not, seems like a good deal ? Ultimately who wins at the end ? US the consumers, the VF fans and Shenmue fans. C'mon you actually think that by doing that the product would lose its quality ? You think that Yu Suzuki would let something this big, two of his best masterpieces and pride and joy, be an inferior product. If the guy is in the hall of fame, you would think it's for a reason. More time, fine lets give him 2 or 3 months or whatever amount of time he needs, as long as the final version of the game is as USUAL, near flawless.

 

Heh, this is going to sound strangely phrased, but I want at least one fighting game out there that isn't all about the fun.

I know the point of games in general is for them to be fun. I know that there are tons of games that can totally capitalize on crossovers and make money doing it. I know these games are fun in their own way. But that doesn't mean you MUST apply the same stupid fun, moneymaking formula to every frigging game on the planet. You can't improve chess by putting pikachu in it, you can't improve The Godfather with ben affleck, and VF isn't going to be more fun or interesting with Ryo Hazuki. That kind of mentality reeks of the same thinking that said "let's merge AOL and time warner!" and "let's stick britney spears on lunchboxes, underwear, drapes, shoelaces, and hairspray!"

...Yeah it'll be cool and interesting and fun! This lunchbox will never get boring now that Britney is pictured on the side!

 

How can you say if it will or will not be? Doesn't the "fun" depend on how well Sega would do his character, or any other character?

 

And the lunchbox could be a damn fine lunchbox.
Still doesnt make it better then a regular lunchbox.
Another point can be that quality is compromised on things like that becouse hey the celebrety pull will ensure sales anyway.

 

Doesn't the "fun" depend on how well Sega would do his character, or any other character?

Not really. The "fun" depends on the game. It has nothing to do with whether or not I recognize the character I'm playing from somewhere else. Character recognition has contributed to not a single second of fun out of the 10,000,000 hours of fun people have had with VF1,2,3,4, and evo. So will character recognition drastically alter the fun level in VF5? No. VF5's fun will depend on the quality of the gameplay, graphics, sound, animation, etc... same as always.

Putting it another way, if you'd played VF4 and akira had been replaced with ryo ... how many minutes of fun do you think you'd have gotten from saying "oh hey that's ryo, he has the same clothes as he did in shenmue." ... to me it'd be about 20 seconds of fun, maybe 5 minutes if I can recognize specific moves... and then the other 999 hours of fun would come from the important stuff.

If you're tempted to pull out the standard troll-y "oh so you think we should be playing atari 2600 blocks" argument then you aren't reading correctly. What I'm saying is that whether vanessa is a black woman with white hair and 200 brutal moves or whether she's Storm from the xmen comics with 200 brutal moves, the game's going to be the same. So why not storm you ask? Because it cheapens the game and lacks originality.

 

I think your making an extremely slippery sloap argument here Creed.
Lets make it a bit simpler - call the hidden character "x". Sega can put just as much time into "x" as the other characters, make "x" balanced, fun to play, etc. Sega Could make X into Ryu, give him his own moves. When did I ever say anything about a pallot swap, which is what you were insinuating. Again, a hidden character from other series can bring in new fans, create more allure to the game..
wait...I hear the comming argument "I don't want VF to appeal to more people, more scrubs, blah blah blah."

 

Or drive them away. I know people who won't touch the home SC2 since McFarlane has "graced" it with his presence.

What's even worse is when they try to sell the game on the basis of guest characters alone. Did you see the ads for Ergheiz? All they showed was that FF7 characters were in it. Pathetic.

 

Serious? Most people I know are feeling spawn only second to Link, which is a tight character.

 

When did I ever say anything about a pallot swap, which is what you were insinuating. Again, a hidden character from other series can bring in new fans, create more allure to the game..

nah man, you aren't reading me right here - I'm not talking about a pallette swap at all, especially not with the akira/ryo or vanessa/storm analogy. Let's pretend you've gone back in time to before VF4's release. You'd NEVER ever seen vanessa in your entire life. Sega has a choice to make a new character for VF4. They want a tough black female, and they have the choice of getting their top guy (let's call him Jimbo) to design either a new character called "vanessa" from scratch or to take an existing tough black female from the marvel comics world.

My point was, no matter WHICH choice he made, that character would be fun no matter what because Jimbo just kicks ass at creating interesting looking costumes and moves and animations etc etc etc. Whether you see storm doing an army throw or chokehold or tackle, or whether you see vanessa doing it... it's cool looking because jimbo made it cool looking, not because you recognize the person doing it. When you have fun playing the tough new black female, it's because of the work jimbo put into making her - it's not like you're gonna mentally say to yourself "man, I can't believe it, I'm playing as STORM!" at the beginning of every round. That "I'm playing as storm!" feeling will last maybe five minutes and then it's gone forever, and the only thing that makes the game fun after that is jimbo's dedication to gameplay and balance.

PS: slippery slope means I'm basing an argument on a questionable assumption... one which could be expanded into something that destroys my own argument. In this case I don't think it applies, it's better to reserve cute phrases like that for serious debates on morals and ethics =)

Slippery Sloap is what Slenior Slitizens Slip on in the Shlower.

 

Just an observation. Holds little meaning for the Shenmue chars in VF debate...but....

Most of the people I know who hate the new characters love the story, play the game a lot , and love competition. This includes myself. I think I speak on behalf of this group when I say that the crossovers are hated simply because they don't fit in. Bright cheerful-green Link facing Astaroth, then Spawn crawling way from the future comic books onto "the stage of history"...looks awkward to me.

The people I know who think the crossovers are tight don't care about the story, don't play the game even 1/4 as much as the rest of us, and get their ass whooped by the competition.

 

Ok, so make storm available as a hidden character, alah SC, who's gameplay, aside from some crappy Mitsu/Cervantiez stuff (which is about as bad as Akira/Kage stuff), the characters are very balanced. I still do not see a valid argument against cross over characters. If anything, but your own argument, they would strengthen the game by drawing someone in who gets to say "Holy Allah Buddah Jesus, I am playing as Apu from the simpsons", but then stays cause he realize that how awesome the game is.

 

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CreeD said:

Heh, this is going to sound strangely phrased, but I want at least one fighting game out there that isn't all about the fun.

I know the point of games in general is for them to be fun. I know that there are tons of games that can totally capitalize on crossovers and make money doing it. I know these games are fun in their own way. But that doesn't mean you MUST apply the same stupid fun, moneymaking formula to every frigging game on the planet. You can't improve chess by putting pikachu in it, you can't improve The Godfather with ben affleck, and VF isn't going to be more fun or interesting with Ryo Hazuki. That kind of mentality reeks of the same thinking that said "let's merge AOL and time warner!" and "let's stick britney spears on lunchboxes, underwear, drapes, shoelaces, and hairspray!"

...Yeah it'll be cool and interesting and fun! This lunchbox will never get boring now that Britney is pictured on the side!



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It sounds weird but I understand where you're getting at. But look at VF4, what made it successful ? The game is fun almost too addictive, I can't even tell you how many fights I got in the kumite mode alone, way over 3000 and I'm not even counting VS and arcade mode. Sega already tried not being fun, the game was called VF3, that's why it didn't sell so well. Of course the hardcore VF fans bought it but everybody else bought Tekken 3, SC, DOA 2 and Powerstone. Was it because it was a bad game no certainly not. The amount of skill you had to have was sick and that's what attracted me to it but unfortunately most of the time I was playing it by myself.

VF4 attracted new people to the game, especially the addition of LeiFei, alot of new people will tell you that it's because of him and the curiosity of playing him that was the main reason they actually bought the game others will tell you it's because of Lion or Shun. Proof that characters, if they're FUN to play with (LeiFei) determines a games success.

My brother and cousin hated VF3 and they went bonkers over VF4 why because the game is fun. Yu Suzuki even said it in an interview : they went around and had a poll and asked people which VF game was the best and VF2 got the majority of the votes, why, because it was a FUN game and I also think that Lion and Shun had a bigger impact than Aoi and Taka anyway that's why VF4 as more similarities with VF2 than 3.

Look, I understand what you're saying, I don't want the game to go too commercial but I don't want it to stay too underground either. If a musician is too underground, sooner or later he's gonna get drop from his record label same goes for a videogame. Sega didn't do too well with its 2K series, so other games have to make up for the losses not contribute to it. There's nothing wrong about giving the consumer more, it doesn't mean that the game is selling out to its hardcore and loyal fans, adding bonuses don't mean loss of quality it means more replay value, hours and hours of it.

Is VF4 selling out with the addition of kumite items ? It's a fighting game RIGHT what do we care about playing dress up ? I didn't hear anybody complain about that though. But Is it a bad addition ? HELL NO ! That's the reason the game is so addictive, you can actually have fun playing solo and be rewarded for doing so.
Start a kumite with Akira, then Jacky, then Kage (Ryo, Lan di ... )infinite amount of gameplay. 1000 times better than a freakin survival mode. Now do the same without the items = (FUN) and what do you get ? The same old boring fighting game shit.

Also the exemples you gave were the same as the True Ogre comparisons if not worse. Britney Spears is extremely commercial and the Shenmue cast is not. Now if I was talking about Sonic they would of been valid but Shenmue doesn't have the recognition of J. Timberlakes ex and the Sonicman.

Guys it's an ARCADE/fighting GAME, not a simulator. Look a Bushido blade great fighting game, very realistic, one hit kills... but it lacked one major thing, FUN. It wasn't for everyone, so guess what happened, it remained underground and not alot of people played or even knew about it. Is that what you want to happen to VF. It's a business fellas, lets not forget that. The game needs its hardcore followers but it needs the casual consumers even more in order for it to survive. But I totally understand, when you say that you don't want the game to be all about the fun. You and I will definitly keep playing it but what about the others who aren't as dedicated ? And don't say : well I don't give a fuck about them let them go play SC or Tekken ! Because like it or not they're the ones bringing in the most money not the ones at VFDC.

 

The argument that people might come for the recognizable face and stay for the killer gameplay is a good one, but there are some reasons not to go with the recognizable face, which I'll reiterate:

1. It's unoriginal. No matter how well they do it, the basic character design is decided for them. You could be sacrificing a really cool looking, fascinating character with a completely original style in favor of a fairly cool looking version of a familiar character with familiar moves.

2. You're automatically restricted as to what you can and can't do with the character. Storm is fundamentally good, she's not going to dress like a slut, and unlike vanessa storm would never have a rifle or bazooka items... she's a pacifist, right? Storm is also a tough black chick with white hair, so at this point your new character definitely can't be a heavyweight, definitely can't have an afro hairstyle, and definitely can't have pale skin (if the designers do any of these things with storm they'd get yelled at for warping her image or making a poor representation). Once you decide to go with a known character, you're locked into a certain style and personality and clothing choice.

3. You're going to be tempted to force stuff into the game that doesn't really belong there, just because it's part of the character. In the street fighter alpha series for example, they removed chain combos for the characters because SFA1 chain combos were stupidly easy and strong. But when they put guy in there, they felt they HAD to give him his final fight jab jab gut punch elbow crescent combo. So guy gets a chain combo even when (almost) nobody else does. If you put storm in VF, it's expected she can fly and do some sort of projectile. I know this argument isn't entirely applicable to VF because ryo doesn't do anything supernatural, but the fact remains that time will be spent giving him moves that are just like his moves and canned combos in shenmue... rather than being spent on all new moves. The temptation will be there to slack off and say "well we got him those recognizable moves and that, let's toss in a few more that look similar and call it day". Certainly they aren't going to give storm 2 stances and 200 moves.

4. It just cheapens the game. If a game breaks tradition like that, it looks like selling out. It looks like sega's trying to make a few bucks off of someone's recognizable face because their own designs are just too boring. It makes the game too much like ... seeing PEPSIMAN in fighting vipers, or hearing your favorite song used in a car commercial. Or seeing aol advertisments during a movie preview. It just makes me feel physically ill. It doesn't matter how well they do their character, once you've sold out you're on the slippery slope (>")> to mediocre universal crapdom. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif