Brad's good points

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KiwE said:
You could ofc do some crazy eyes shit like against the QR riser but since you only get a few frames shaved of and it's P counterable you'd get a TC situation against you if he QR-Gaurds

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a + directly after the throw will not be even throw counterable. If something is guarded while tech rising, the recovery for the guard is longer for some reason - try it in free training - you can break the throw every time if they stand, guard, and counter with throw. If they crouch guard, it will hit.

 

That's great Siyko but it wasn't the being talked about but the there right? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

sorry, i should have clarified.. i don't see as a great option after + for a few reasons:

1 - you have to perform it pretty much immediately after the +, otherwise it will connect too late and be throw counterable on block. if your opponent decides to side roll or just lie still, then the move will whiff. you have to accurately predict what your opponent will do and this allows them a small amount of control (your opponent is forcing a guessing game on YOU, ie whether they will QR or not), whereas otherwise you would still totally be in control after a .

2 - if your opponent predicts a throw and ducks, then the + will hit for a float and can be followed by a short juggle, but to my mind if you're thinking they're going to go for a crouch then + is a better option; after it's followed with last shot and then a combo, it does more damage than a standard hit > combo on crouching opponents. of course, if they don't duck and just stand guard then you're at a large disadvantage, but you'd be in exactly the same situation if you'd have used .

so for me i very rarely use as a followup after +.. maybe useful as a suprise at the end of the match, if you need one, but otherwise i think he has better options.

 

I think you wrote wrong when saying + will hit for a float and ment so I'll asume that.

You need to seperate between 2 situations; attacking the opponent while he is QR'ing and attacking him after / at the end due to you predicting a when the animation has stopped (you could also do a small backdash > elbow and all of that here). In a totally even situation a is much faster than a +.

While the is good in the first situation mentioned, it is not as much in the second (as you'll be TC)... but... if we're talking about the second situation (someone trying to you after getting out of the QR situation) you should land a MC hit on them with correct timing and a 95damage combo (and above that if you're anywhere near a wall) which would be around 25points of damage better then the + combo would give you (at a maximum).
However, if you haven't read your opponent (the people I meet mostly QR's all the time) and he mixes TR's and QR's heavily you're right - not being able to start with the dashing motion hurts the as a tool greatly if your opponent knows what he's doing. All in all I guess that's why QR is the best option aswell for an opponent - I thought you could and not be TC until just trying it in practice (god that sucks). /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The best thing to do, if we put all things togheter then imo after testing is to start with a and then react;
1) Opponent stays down: +>
2) Opponent TR's; Hunt him with + and get the backstagger.
3) Opponent QR's and just gaurds: + (I like doing this cause you could always do a modified uppercut or other things and get a CH, the animation looks alot like a dodge so you can do mixups there aswell but any throw will do).
4) Opponent QR's and tries to at once (probably most common attack straight out of a QR): Abit delayed + combo?

Note that it's important to really delay the + as if you do it to soon you'll get a normal hit and not the stagger making the rest garanteed. If you're really going for the MC against the there are of cource other options like a etc or a backdash + (or if you really wanted to play it safe you could do a slipright and continue offence). Why not get really cute and + MC the and then do the Longshot for even more damage? Slip left (which doesn't require a CH) or fakeout slip left > throw can also be nice in this situation for showing off.
All in all there are many possibilites but considering risk/profit ratio I think the + combo would probably be the highest ranked option in this instance really. I can't stress enough though how much success I've been having with throwing a QR while playing VS in Evo though (people seem really afraid of doing anything while rising against Brad due to his strong wakeup options) /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/KiwE (Abuses ...> + to much).

 

(i did mean , sorry /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

yeah i think you're right on all counts. i was thinking that the opponent had the choice of recovering crouching from QR.. not sure where i got that idea. heh heh.

i hadn't thought of + looking like a threat of an uppercut.. haha that's priceless. i will incorporate that into my game at the earliest available opportunity. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

on another subject; what do you use against rising attacks? i've been countering the high ones (so.. satisfying! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ) and blocking the low ones so far, but now i'm thinking that slip left would be best because it's mid and you can start the aforementioned mixups from it after a + or a .. so i guess my real question is:

what are your thoughts on okizeme?

 

The point that looks alot like ducking is great, it's pretty much impossible to tell the difference between it and ducking after some moves meaning that you can mix it up with the ducking + kick against TR'ers if you want to and much more. About the uppercut, try modding it backwards for a change - it's actually quite nice (in a roundstart for example) to do as you move back and you ofc don't have to do the unless someone is coming after you.

Brad has loads and loads of options against people who do rising attacks. The best is probably +(MC)>+>Combo as the timing on the + is pretty forgiving. You can ofc also do a or even a if you have good timing (and luck) but it's obvious why the + would probably be the best (not TC and timing etc). I sometimes like to do slip left >combo etc too (although it's harder) for pure style points. Something that is very fun to do is to just CD like mad against someone you have put down to call out the midkick in 9 times out of 10 from the other player and then reverse it. Other nice options is being just in range for the rising attack and doing slipback , dashing back +,,running in and doing a > combo on a whiffed rising attack etc. Against a blocked rising attack (high or low) (or if you care to make it Ducking and go for bigger things) is garanteed. A normal reaction of someone getting their rising midkick blocked is to so if you can keep it cool you can just gaurd as a setupmove and then do
MC punish it hard (but then again he might just block).

/KiwE

 

All series depend on your opponent. Some series work on different kind of opponents.
Best move is ducking and it's´many follow-up possibilities.

 

Btw, thought I'd share some fun stuff from the slipleft that I've been starting to use recently that aren't that obvious or just are plain stylish.

Slipleft >>Duck>Ducking+.
This is a perfect TR trap. Although you could ofc do anything else then the - if you do this whole thing without delay the timing will just be perfect for the ducking + to hit. Completely perfect. You simply can not miss hitting the opponent during his vunerable stage in his TR really and he won't be able to block the + in any way or form if he TR's. If he QR, you can do it anyways (since the pushes back abit and the + aswell you will be able to evade attacks after it's blocked and you're not within throwingrange) and hope he doesn't gaurd during his QR (so you'll get a hit) or you could always just stop after your ducking (and perhaps + dash in and throw).

Slipleft >() >(Small dash)>Dodge .
If you do this right with a bit of delay after the dodge you should get the opponent alot in while he's considered crouching, both if he TR's or he QR's, giving you the garanteed combo. Just watch for the struggle meter to pop up for your opponent (as your input into the second doesn't need to be directly after and it's delayable), if it doesn't come up; cancel and throw.

These combos are ofc for style points. The "normal" one that's listed as a max combo and should be the one used most I guess is:

Slipleft >(delay)>+, which is 65damage on a CH.

However.... I kinda like doing:

Slipleft>> (67 damage if he tries a rising attack or just lies there and 70 damage if he tries to QR or TR's). The can only be avoided by TR'ing in one direction and is garanteed in all other instances (QR, rising attacks, TR wrong way, lies still). I like using this combo alot cause
1) It's easy; if you miss the delayed in the slipleft > >+, combo you have nothing.
2) Much much much better Okizeme options. The +, pushes the opponent back killing your wakeup game (not even a slipright will be in range) while if you do the above combo you're right by his feet.

Over and Out.

 

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what are your thoughts on okizeme?


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do you mean blocked low attacks? if so then a ++~ + is just sheer blaytantness, especially with delayed rising low attacks which go up to atleast -14 (or 16?). delayed high rising attacks also go this far, so you may even get a guaranteed ++. (which is 14 frames right?).

interms of pressurising attackers (i guess which is the whole point ) then i think that a slip forward + or are some of your best options. i say slip forward mid-cut round house more because you can close in from a distance and delay it. plus you get a free ground attack if they fail to TR from the arquard fall. the + (or even ++) can be used for closing down your opponent from close range should you want to as you dash in making the opponent chose under pressure.

well, those are my two cents comming from a rusty brad..... /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

peace.

 

Nah, + isn't an elbow speed attack so it's not garanteed after you block a low rising attack but yup, against a rising mid attack the + (which is elbowspeed) is garanteed (totally slipped my mind) which makes Brad one happy Italian \[^.^]/

Now, that being said it raises an interesting question; why would you ever want to try and reverse a midrising attack when you could just block it and deal out more damage thru your garanteed +>Combo if not just for show? (Hint; you wouldn't). So the fact that he can reverse all rising midattacks regardless of position (which some have stressed) is of small importance as compared to him having an elbowspeed combostarter on normal hit actually.

Against a blocked rising attack it's just + and the likes that are garanteed. The boring part about + is that in most instances where you have it garanteed as in blocking Lau's you're better of with punishing with actually as it's more damage. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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is just sheer blaytantness

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You're abusement of the word blaytant is beyond blaytant. Stop or me call police! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit; forgot to say but being able to connect the after a Slip left is stance specific for some characters (Akira, Sarah, Van, Pai, Kage, Jacky, Goh) and not for others (Wolf, Aoi, Brad, Lion, Jeff, Shun etc). It somehow seems impossible to hit Lei with it regardless of stance making him and Shang exeptions in lameness.

Btw, is it just me or is Brads jumping down attack extremly flaky and misses to much as compared to other characters?

/KiwE

 

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KiwE said:

Btw, is it just me or is Brads jumping down attack extremly flaky and misses to much as compared to other characters?

/KiwE

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Try to compare it with Shun´s pounce after evade. It misses hell of a lot more...

Pouncing is for sissies, anyway... /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

Shun doesn't count - what being an old, nearsighted drunkard of a Git who pisses his pants every mornin'?
He couldn't hit water if he was dropped with a parachute into the Atlantic.

Fuck Shun and the ghey Mule he rode in on.

/KiwE (Doesn't like powerup chars in in a serious fightinggame, do a Taka on the old Sod and make it hurt)

 

so how fast is brad's d+p+K ~ f+p? (being that there is no frame stats on brad on this site).. as i said, the delayed rising attack is very punishable, i'm sure it is atleast -14, but i also think it goes as high as -16, don't tell me that brad's d+p+k is knee class? (17+ frames!?) having not tested it yet of couse i'd like to say i sure doubt it.

but if i'm wrong.... then *mehhh*...

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Now, that being said it raises an interesting question; why would you ever want to try and reverse a midrising attack when you could just block it and deal out more damage thru your garanteed f+p+k>Combo if not just for show?

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because you only get a guarenteed elbow if the opponent's rising attack is *delayed*, otherwise it's not even counterable. (that's why it's a good okimeze tool for people who try to reverse and screw their timing) i consider taking advantge of this of course because it is an instant combo starter to dish out guaranteed damage. anybody who actually perfers to reverse it needs their heads examined unless non-delayed.. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif (which is most advisable in that circumstance)

and about brad's pounce, try looking at wolf's it actually randomly misses about 2 out of 10 times even in guaranteed situations such as arquard wall hits and even his armlock swing ~ canned clothesline (back turned pounce)..... -__-

watch bunbunmaru vs freeloader on your evo disc to watch the whiffage in action!!

 

+ is 15 or 16 frames (Elbow+ counter) so it's just under knee at elbow+ class togheter with + actually. Rising delayed low attack -should- be -15 (although I read once a post saying it was -14). According to this site a delayed rising attack should be 'Upper' counterable in Brads case which according to the legend = 15 frames so that would mean that Brads + should be 16 right if that's correct (since it's not garanteed)? A non delayed rising attack that's blocked puts you on a large dis yeah with nothing garanteed (oh well, Okizeme is more for Tekkenheads).
Worth to note is that after testing this (comp on gaurd all and rising attack and then +) I found that , also is garanteed against the rising attack and +, (which is also Elbow+) is not so curse that bloody one frame.
First one to post a clip of jumping over a delayed low rising attack in a match and countering it with a garanteed , gets a cookie! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Btw; Why do pounces whiff really? I have no memory of them doing so in VF2 ever (never got into VF3 really) but then again you had two jumps for two different ranges but seriously - is this bad coding / a bug in the game and why didn't they fix it for evo? (I find it hard to believe it was intended to be like this). I mean, the difference between you landing your pounce and you missing by an inch and letting the opponent get a free shot on you is actually beyond crucial and sucks.

<font color="yellow">Important Edit: </font> Is there any way in hell of punishing a blocked delayed low rising attack with ? That is, doing that move fast from crouching position in this case without getting the non garanteed uppercut instead? I sure as hell can't find it (and it could be usefull to be able to do the from crouching at other times aswell).

/KiwE

 

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KiwE said:
<font color="yellow">Important Edit: </font> Is there any way in hell of punishing a blocked delayed low rising attack with ? That is, doing that move fast from crouching position in this case without getting the non garanteed uppercut instead? I sure as hell can't find it (and it could be usefull to be able to do the from crouching at other times aswell).


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you just buffer a normal dash before the move.. for example, to do a normal instead of a from crouching, you need to do .

 

no real need for .

, is better - elbow class and gets knockdown, would also screw them up pretty bad if they hit the wall as you can pounce or ++.

 

Aaahh.. Wrong my dear. is risky. is fast and it can be delayed. + sure is a fine move. It causes a fine stagger and your opponent is in trouble. You can throw or do follow-up attack.
You can do the throw without a dash.
Follow-up attacks:
(risky?) or
ducking and throw or

 

In , is guaranteed when elbow connects, but the timing depends on hit (counter=longer reaction time to get a certain hit). +, + is always a handy way to stop crouchers, btw...

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KiwE said:
Btw; Why do pounces whiff really? I have no memory of them doing so in VF2 ever (never got into VF3 really) but then again you had two jumps for two different ranges but seriously - is this bad coding / a bug in the game and why didn't they fix it for evo? (I find it hard to believe it was intended to be like this). I mean, the difference between you landing your pounce and you missing by an inch and letting the opponent get a free shot on you is actually beyond crucial and sucks.

/KiwE

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Pouncing is a bit weird in Evo, IMHO. It still seems like a better tactic than in VF4, but luckily not as integral strategy like in earlier games (luckily so indeed!!!). Wolf has 5 down attacks/pounces so use those that seem to work for you (I miss that old pounce animation, sigh). Pounces are for sissies.

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KiwE said:

Shun doesn't count - what being an old, nearsighted drunkard of a Git who pisses his pants every mornin'?
He couldn't hit water if he was dropped with a parachute into the Atlantic.

Fuck Shun and the ghey Mule he rode in on.

/KiwE (Doesn't like powerup chars in in a serious fightinggame, do a Taka on the old Sod and make it hurt)

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Shun is not only a powerful powerup character, but also a "better" character in some ways to Brad, IMHO. Shun about must get those 6-12 drinks to really rock the house and it depends a lot of players skillz (and opponents, obviously) how this actually gets useful in any way. At least it is a lot easier to get people seriously pissed with Shun than Brad (leaving out LeiFei from this conversation), with his amazingly versatile weird move collection. I love Shun (fanboy I am...)

 

*jumps up and down in hate of VirtuaPai and late trains*

There, all better now. /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Yes there is a need for - atleast I'd like the option to try it out (and the knowledge of how to do it could be trancended to other characters so that's kinda also why I asked). Moves that people see rarely in flowcharts are moves that connect - I can see the second elbow MC'ing for example alot if you do it from a CD etc but has to be tested (and the move is hellasafe). And regarding damage after a wallhit - I kinda think I'd get kinda more out of a + wallstagger then a + right? /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
If it's not close to a wall though you can try doing this (who said Brad didn't need fast command input?):
(Stagger)+


Neonomide - there is an edit button - stop postwhoring man.

*Runs of to beat his Sandbag to oblivion thinking of VirtuaPai and all the crap he gets away with*

 

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Aaahh.. Wrong my dear. is risky

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what? it's a mid elbow like everybody else's how can it be dangerous in a guaranteed low position? you do realise i am talking about after a delayed rising low sweep don't you?

KwiE - getting a guaranteed f+p,K ~ pounce will do more than enough interms of damage. df+PP followups is an option, but i wouldn't want to try it when you are both at 30% health left. the best you could do with it is guess a throw or attack which is riskier either way. i'm only suggesting how to pressurise a riser which is to stop them dead on and deal damage making them choose another option or to feel pressured in doing it.