Community Tier Chart

@marly,
U fail to understand from stance he has less options than anyone has not in stance. Once you include stance, and moves that beat any options from stance, and the fact that he cannot insta-guard, he is option deficient. What you call "all those options put him above average"..."all those options" are less options than anyone on the game has not in stance. "All those options" put him below average because stance defense is weaker than normal defense. You can't argue that you not knowing how to crack lei's stances make them good defensive options.

I give all the characters that don't lock themselves into stances without guard options as better defense. That's what i rate them as. Consequently, online i am a lei fei sniper, even in a laggy environment that minimizes some of his disadvantages.

U may note that i am not simply trying to talk down lei's strength as a character. I also pointed out why he was rated too low in zoning. I am just giving an honest appraisal of lei's strength/weaknesses as a player who used lei for 3 years. Those weaknesses have not changed, if anything they have been amplified as his sabakis have smaller windows and he lost some excellent stance options for mix ups (like zero frame throw, but i won't list them all).

Marly you have it backwards. If lei is blocked going into stance (sometimes even after entering stance on hit) the opponent forces the options/pressure, not lei. So by your logic, the opponent is employing the 'strongest thing in the game'.

 

I'm lost here, what's all this about?

Lei can perfectly fine, using his stances are optional, no?

 

I use pai. 3p+k shuts down every single stance and every single sabaki. Thus all the stances for lei fei are free damage. (lei fei can use 43p+k to do the same thing). Akira can (or at least he used to on vanilla) 46p+k. Lots of characters have a move that is unsabakiable and can easily be used on reaction to flatten lei everytime he goes into ANY stance.

Can't really say on a character by character breakdown, as i've not used all the characters, nor have i used lei on FS. But i know playing vs lei on FS that, at least for me, the only hindrance to grabbing a free knockdown and damage vs EVERY STANCE, is my own diligence in punishing.

Sooo, with that considered, you can't paint his stances and sabaki's as defense with one broad brush. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are the antipode of defense.

Edit: agree with Feck.
However, I would say that you can't really us Lei fei to his fullest without using lots of stances. So he has an inherent risk built into his game that others don't. But the trade off is a fair and balanced one.

 

You are right.
However, it would be somewhat illogical to use lei and not use his stances. His stances are extremely powerful offensive weapons, and to balance that he is lacking in defense when doing so. He is a glass cannon in that nature. But people are arguing that his stances are not a defensive hinderance and they don't know what they are talking about.

 

Social_ruin :
Garanteed in which case?
Against which move? Which follow up ?

Of course 2P can shut down Lei's Hai P P+K ! Hai P is a high, even if it wasn't interruptible it's a high, it's not broken or whatever. Or make Hai transition bad.
Yes some moves will tend to eat sabaki, but that's the case against each character.

I actually understood what you meant, but you can't limit Lei's game to blocked move into stance = disadvantage.
Most of the time you will force answers, and limited answers.
Those limited answers will not be garanteed 100% of the time, and Lei Fei will be able to counter them.
>> Yomi game.

So of course you can find stuff that will limit me in what I will do with lei fei, but the contrary is true too.

If you played Maxi in SC5, it's really the same stuff.

EDIT : Btw, it is not illogical to use Lei Fei and use G after stance if your opponent use mid circ. (Jacky, Vanessa, etc...), low circ. or any slow stuff to counter what you do.
If it's unsafe you'll punish it, if it's safe you'll block it, worst case scenario you'll eat a low sweep and be advantage on hit.
Of course your opponent can switch to fast moves... then the answers are different.

 

Alright, i am going to leave it alone. I've said my peace.

 

lei enters kyo stance he still has +3 advantage with 3p or 6p+k p and +4 with 6p if guarded. if those moves hits instead he has better frame advantage there are various options to use in kyo after depending on what opponent does.
opponent abares = use kyo p fastest option, opp guards= kyo p+k guard break, opp evades= kyo k+g full cir
matchup wise against vanessa she has the defensive elbow that simpify the guessing 1p > kyo p, 2k, p+k, k+g
its the same boat when i fight jacky. his 46 k+g full mid cir shuts down koko p, 2kpp, k, 2/8p+k+g, g cancel stance to BT when you enter koko from disadvantage. Only nehan k+g special hi puts lei in adv on guard

 

Lei also has some stances that make him immune to a lot of attacks like bokutai.

I'm not a Lei Fei expert but from the small experience I have fighting him, there are two kinds of Lei those who know when to play it safe and cancel stance to guard and those who don't and get escaped into launcher X N.
Hit checking maybe even more important with him than other characters.

Still you cannot say that having sabakies is not a plus for defense, that is even more true when one of his best is in neutral stance.

Where I would rank Lei a bit down is in Anti Yutori. I remember a japanesse top player (I think it was Fuudo) saying something like "He is weak cause he has to hit with his mids".
At the time the game was not even available for us and I admit I hadn't really understood what he meant.In think I do now.

In a game where you can throw escape the opponent best throw while guarding. It is indeed a problem. A problem that he had not in vanilla due to no lazy TE and stance cancel to 0 frames throw whic made him hit with his mid a lot more.

He still has good low attacks, but his guard break is so so (has to be in stance, and gives small guaranteed damage). Then his throw game suffers the "only one strong throw syndrome". So I think he is a bit under average.

Someone I would rank a bit up is Aoi for ring out potential. Her PP6P has crazy carry.
When I do 33P+K (NH) from training starting position (no dashing) and do P, PP6PP the opponent hits the wall. I can't remember that from any char I tried yet. I have to check a few other chars. She also has that 2KPP OTG string that can ring you out if you stay on the ground. PP6PP the last hit can ring you out on CH over half fences, nasty

 

Transition into bokutai or suirakan will indeed duck under some mids like Akira's DE or SDE, or Jacky's 46K+G.
Some tools will shut down one stance 100% after some moves (any transition into kokoshiki VS Jacky's 46K+G for exemple).
It's especially problematic in the Jacky match up because it shuts down 6K which is probably his best standing circ.
But those kind of solutions are very very limited in the game. Most of the time you can do something to complicate the answers your opponent has and put yourself into a easy yomi situation.
Exemple : just like Numbers said Vane's DS 1P will eat everything after 3P P+K+G blocked except Kyo KK and Doku transition. Kyo KK will lose to evade. You have easy mind game between 3P P+K+G Kyo K+G, 3P P+K+G Kyo KK and 3P P+K+G Kyo~8P+K+G (Doku transition).
You can complicate the thing once the opponent is conditionned but that's the simple stuff.

I agree with you chibitox about his anti-yutori. His lows are great though and his side hit game is good.

 

Hey guys, I just wanted to challenge some of DS Vanessa's scores so watch out for the wall o' text:

DS

Mids - 3.5

I believe these are some of DS's most noteworthy native mids (not derived from strings):
• 1P, 4P, 3K, 6K, 66K, 3K+G, wsP, 44K+G, 6P+K+G and let's not forget Intercept Position K hmm? I'll discuss them individually if anyone has a question about one of them.

I'd say that DS has some good mids if not slightly above average. You're really spoiled for choice because each one of those moves have great uses and properties even if most are not fast enough for 15f punishment (Throws work just fine and I think learning a good throw mixup game is important since it can be applied earlier than 15f, and both directions for DS are good damage: 60/70). Guaranteed damage is nice but sometimes you can't wait for that (or worse your opponent won't give it to you), and that's not how DS works anyway. I don't think it should be the only factor in this score.


Standing Punish - 2

I don't disagree with a low score in this category but definitely not a score of one. Like some may already know DS has a 10f move that can interrupt some strings and delayed attacks entirely. While its range is short, Cut Upper (3P) does exactly what its name says by cutting off your opponents offense and giving you some frame advantage to start your own at +1 on block, +4 on hit and +6 on CH. This is real punishment because the opponent must now guess Mid/Throw.


RO potential - 3

This is another category I really want to challenge because again, a score of just one is simply way too low especially for a character that actually does have some scary RO options. For one, I think the ability to reverse positions with a throw is definitely a plus (P+G and 44P+G). Second, the ability to ambiguously RO when parallel to the edge is just plain boss. I haven't seen too much written about the RO potential of DS Vanessa's Arm Hold so I'll post some of my findings here, the rest I'll make a thread for later.

Parallel RO potential of Arm Hold (No Fences or Walls)

Hold Facing Front: Both 4 and 6P+G will RO. When dangerously close to edge inputing nothing (5) to release will RO opponent.

HFB: Only P+G will RO opponent however since the other throws are still quite damaging this creates a crucial mixup of RO or Damage (Scary, huh?)

With all this evidence I think we can safely say that DS's RO potential is pretty darn good, again, at least average or better. DS combos may not carry that far but they certainly aren't stationary. Please don't give Van a score of one, that's just silly.


Wall Game - 3 or 3.5

DS wall game is definitely not boring and I believe it is on par with most of the cast if not slightly above average. When an opponent is backed up against a wall some options are 2K+G(Stagger), 3K(Stagger) and 4P(Splat) to have a mid/low circular mixup. When parallel to wall and facing it Van can again do a mid/low circular mixup with either 2K+G or P+KP and put them in side crumple with 3K, then switch to OS to slap them into the wall again with 3KPK and use a finisher. I left some parts out but all in all the combo does either 116 or 109 damage on NH depending on the starter. Not only the above, but DS can also setup wall opportunities with either 44P+G or P+G (a rising attack can be countered with 4P and lead to a wall splat I believe).

Please take these into consideration and thanks for reading, I know it's a lot but I really want this tier to be as accurate as possible and leave no stone unturned as far as Vanessa goes.

 

No feed back on the best way to put standing punish list ? I guess I’ll leave it like it is

@ TaNooki_kun About Vanessa here’s what I said for giving her 2 in mids

I don’t get why you raised the point of guaranteed damage. I didn’t mention it. There are already 2 categories for guaranteed damage this is not the point of the Mid category. Besides most –15 punish are HIGH launchers.

The mid category is about versatility of mids, risk reward ratio, tracking, anti sabaki, speed, hit confirmability, jumping mids etc.

If I had to rank her mids without comparing to other chars I would give her 3 or maybe 3.5, cause I’m happy with what she has. if I compare with others I feel they have even better.

She has no fast input 14frames, some have confirmable 14 frames
She has no 16 frame confirmable into combo (like Taka’s 4P+KP)
She has no 17 frames big launcher, her equivalent is 3K+G
She has no jumping above low mid

Yet she has good mids like some of those you mentioned, I would add 6P, I feel it’s a very good move.
The two other chars I see as on par with her in mids are Lion and maybe Jeff. I gave 2 to Lion, and Jeff is at 3 but may be that’s a bit overrated.

If we agree that on a scale of 5 some chars must be 1 or 2. But it’s true I would rank her above Lion and Jeff so may be she is a 3 after all and they are 2s. that's why I put her ceel in blue. What is good about her mids is that almost everything is safe.

Just saw that Sarah has also been ranked 2 for her mids, may be a bit low ? What you guys think ?

Interrupting string is linked with defense category, not punishment. 3P is one of the reasons she got 5.

Relying on holds to create ring outs doesn’t seem uber risky for you ?
What if opponent does a throw or something else she can’t grab (aka 75% of opponent moves).
Basically you are gambling your life with something that have a low percentage of chance to catch a move, and then it’s still guessing game to do the RO.
And I guess you have to be pretty close to RO for that to happen.
Near RO opponents will try circular stuff on you, you will eat CH a lot.
I didn’t know that stuff from holds to be honest, it’s interesting, I’ll test that
But I feel it’s too risky/unpractical to have a big impact compared to her weaknesses.


This category is more about being able to carry opponent, something at which she may be the worst in the game. 6PKK combos’s carry is not good, and it’s even worse with combos ending in KK it simply doesn’t carry at all ! Plus she is not a juggle character, she won’t get as much juggles as others.

2K+G will NOT wallstagger if opponent is back against the wall, it was the case in Vanilla, it’s no longer true.Try it in Dojo, you’ll see you need to be at an angle.
3K will wallstagger only on CH like all midckicks do, it’s nothing special.
Same for 4P wallsplat, it’s only on CH iirc, its wallstaggers on NH from an ok distance though which is more realistic cause hitting counter with a 21 frames mid is not gonna happen everyday .
It’s range have been toned down too, it’s even harder to hit with this move now .

One of the "true" 50/50 she has when opponent is back against the wall is jumping K variants.
The mid= wall splat fuzzyable on block, the low=fullcircular to a smal combo if opponent is close enough to the wall. It’s a good mixup but it requires jumping, not really practical.

Now her // to the wall options are nice, but some chars get nice // AND nice perpendicular options, she doesn’t. You have to compare to others !
Aoi has setups with an unescapable catch throw into 100ish damage.
If she uses it on tech roll the catch can nullify sabakies ! THATS’s strong options.

Also Vane wall throw is sub par. Iirc It does less damage even with the pounce after (which I believe is not guaranteed).









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Thanks for breaking it down Chibitox. I guess I went about scoring it the wrong way. I agree with your reasoning for the scores now.

I'm not too hung up on the exact score for the RO potential but let me know what you think of the Arm Hold stuff after you've got a chance to try it out. It may not be deserving of a bump up to three points but maybe a half a point increase or something? The distance the opponent gets thrown is pretty decent I think. Sure it's hard to set up, but even if you don't see it that often I think it is still a real threat on stages it can be applied to (curse those low fences!). I can't think of that many other characters that have an option like a parallel RO beside's Jeff's 4P+G, and then that can be guarded against by LTE. But since Arm Hold is not entered through a dedicated throw (albeit CH) and has multiple options I'd say it is at least worth giving a shot every now and then (me? I'll be trying it every chance I get).

 

RE: standing punish, put Akira, Lau and OS Van in the same bracket. Happy for Brad to be

Yes and no. They get better damage at -15, and they also get even more damage at -16 where she has to wait for -17. Maybe 5 for the 3 guys and 4.5 is pretty accurate.

Can we go for a 3 then ?

True but for oki it's one of those things that are pretty useful, and 1P no longer sabakies low rising kicks (Taka is an exception).

 

Yeah Chibi, 5 for Lau, Brad and Akira. 4.5 for Vane is right imo.

@Standing Punish

 

So what can you guys tell me about Sarah and Wolf?

 

@MasterHavik: there are some info on those chars in previous posts of this thread

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq4G2cgfZ2JwdGg0YmNGc1dBWTlNVmdRU1ZZcTZUbkE

@Everyone, I will be on holidays for 2 weeks so I won't be able to update the chart.
So we will review some categories when I get back
The categories we already settled for are in gray

I feel we may need some more opinions on Goh, Sarah, Jacky and Eileen and maybe Jean's marks are a litle highs, so if you think some marks are not coherent with the rest of the chart, don't hesitate to post.

Atm if we look at the rankings:

48: Akira, Brad
46,5: Jean
45,5: Taka
45: Wolf, Lau
44,5:Goh, Kage
44: Lion
43,5:Jacky
42,5: OS Vane
41: Aoi, Lei Fei
40,5: Shun
39,5: Pai
38: Jeffry
36,5: El Blaze
36: Sarah
34: DS Vane
32,5: Eileen

 

Can we change weight to something like combo vulnerability?