Community Tier Chart

Jacky is clearly too low down.

 

I also think Jacky should get a 2 for defense. It's not great, but it's not the absolute worst.

 

Jacky
Lows - 2/5? I think his lows are 3.5/5 or 4/5.
RO potential - Should be 2.5/5, some combos with 6_K:G against lightweights and some midweights make the opponents travel quite far away.
Defense - I don't know other characters but I don't think his defense (sabakis vs. Only Single-hand highs/mids Punches) deserves 2, does it? What about 1.5/5?

 

Wolf's strings definitely shouldn't be in the same league as characters like Lion and Sarah. Wolfs got two strings that can both be high guarded. Comparing it to someone like Jeffry, who got a 1, it definitely seems a little haywire.

Also why are Lion and Sarah so low on the string totem pole? They both have great mixups, especially Sarah in flamingo.

Shun's range and zoning is one of his strongest attributes, why only a 3?

And as Pana said, Jacky's lows are definitely stronger than a 2.

I think a lot of this suffers from not enough input from the community, we need more posts!

 

Which Lion's strings would you say are good ?
Good strings attributes examples imo are: Safeness, good risk reward (combo oportunity, Brad),confirmability, high/low mixup, multiple options (Eileen), cancelable (Aoi)

 

He's at least got some basic high low mix ups (like pp p+k) and strings into his stances (like pk p+k+g) which lead to more mixups. Add in his decent amount of half circulars in his strings and that there are some good opportunities for delaying and hit confirming and I'd say his strings aren't nearly as awful as Wolfs.

Am I missing a huge weakness? I'll admit I'm not a Lion player and I'm not as knowledgeable as I could be.

 

Well, speaking strictly in terms of strings, I don't really see why Brad has 4. He doesn't have a lot of strings and they don't have many ramifications. At best, they are delayable.

That said, it doesn't prevent him to have good mix-up situations, specially thanks to his stances. And going by your argument (having a good risk reward) I believe that what you are speaking about (about Ducking P+K,P).



And I find that 4 for anti-Yutori a bit high for him, specially if Wolf has 3 or Jean 4.
Brad throws are weak excepted one direction (so the one that will be TE'ed) and his low don't knockdown on NH. He does have a guard break, but it's in stance, it's high, it's slow and it's not cancelable or chargeable. His catch throw is from stance too. 3 should be more reasonable IMO.

 

PP, P+K = no mixup, where do you see a mid variant in this string ?

There are very few moves that are actually confirmable with Lion, 66KK is one of them, it's not exactly the best. 6PP is not confirmable, unless you punish a whiffing low P. iirc it doesn't combo on standing CH. It is unsafe on block for poor damage on second hit.

4PP, to stance = any options gest stuffed by low P ON HIT, how you gonna mixup with that lol.

PK stance can add variety, but honestly you have almost better options not going into it.

May be Wolf should be a 1 in strings or Lion a 2.5, but I really think his strings are sub par so I put him at 2

Brad at 4 in anti yutori is too much, is basically a close to Lei in term of options imo, may be 2 or 2.5 is better.

 

I second this, Jacky has really good lows. Safe on block lows are a rarity and he gets a fullcircular sweep too. Low combolauncher too. Should be at least 4/5.

 

You mean you would compare him to Lion ?

I think that Lion is far ahead for lows, so I'm carrefull about giving other chars marks that are too close to him, he really is unmatched in this category.
So 4 why not but certainly not 5 imo.

 

At the time, I was thinking that strings were referring in part to mix-ups, and I think he has some that are direct and high damage.

I don't think that his guard break is too great, but his catch throw is pretty nice. It's not that I think that his anti-yutori is all that special, but I had to think in terms of what was average, and what Brad could have to put him over.

 

I was thinking that 1 was the lowest, which would represent a character with no sabaki's, inashis, etc. It doesn't matter if his special defensive moves aren't that great. It just matters that he has them. So with that, I'd give him a 2. It seems that we're working with decimals now, which I despise (It's essentially the same as a scale of 1-10, which I find are too many numbers with which to work.). But if we're going to use decimals, then maybe a 1.5 is fine for Jacky, as you've stated. Also, Brad should get a 1 for defense, I guess, if we're going to use decimals.

 

Considering Lion has only one safe low, I wouldn't say he is "far ahead" (Jacky also has 1) although I admit he is bit more ahead than Jacky since he has multiple low combostarters. 4 and 5 then, imo.

 

PKP sideturned...

 

what about the chart ?
Blue is for maybe underestimated, orange for maybe overestimated, pink is for we need more opinions, right ?
So go(Goh) players ^^ !

 

I'm back from holidays, so I'll try to finish the chart with you guys.

About lion's string.
PKP is very good from the side but so are a lot of strings (ex OS Vane PP string) so it's more something that should be counted in the side pressure category when it will be added. Otherwise it's nothing special, the P is a special high whose reward is not worth the risk of being ducked imo. The PK alone leave you at +3 where almost all chars are at +4, the stance options are ok but not great (low P stops everything but stance P+K which and gives a combo that is not as good as 33PP would have gave if used after PK).
For ex I prefer using OS vane or Brad PK or options than lion's PK mixups by far.

Good strings for me are:

• Multiple hits (preferably mids) that have multiple options, preferably ending with a combo on last hit CH (ex Eileen 6P+K,PP)
• 2 hits mid that are confirmable into combo (taka's 4P+KP, Brad ducking strings)
• 2 hits mids that are confirmable and safe on block (Vane mid Punch strings) or 6P,Ktype moves
• High strings with mixups (Lion's PP= no real mixups)
• Long range strings confirmable on CH like lau 3KP
• "spamable" 2 hits like Jean 33PK

Lion is pretty poor, two things that are practically confirmable are 66KK (for an amazing ( 35 damage), and 3P+K+G PP string.



@Manji:
I don't agree with you at all

• 2 hits lows that are safer than the frames may show (ex 2K).
• Lion has 16 frames KD on normal hit low, jacky doesn't, nobody does.It gives a 60 ish damage combo on CH and has good range and ducks highs.
• Lion has a full circular KD on normal hit low, again nobody does.With the new system it will give CH on evade, even better than before.
• He has a semi circular safe on block low, jacky doesn't
• He as a semi circular, side turning low with +5, which creates wall combo mindgames." only" -16, not that much. what else ?
• He has a semi circular low that wall staggers or gives wall side hit into guaranteed combo (44K+G)
• He doesn't need to jump, to have a low that gives a combo on NH, (43P), plus the moves ducks highs and Only -14.
• He has a two hit low/High string that combos from side turned with +4/5
• He has a stance low high, string that give a combo on NH.

Lion has a lot of lows that are -14/-16, which means a so so punish for a lot of chars in the game.
Jacky has nothing on 41236+P IMO. I've seen a lot of japaneese matchs (ex fullswing), where they almost win the match playing mindgames after that move again and again.

 

I change my mind on Brad's anti-evade. Maybe a 4 would be better, because his throws aren't very good.

 

Doesn't anti-evade excludes throws since they have their own category ?

 

I think they need to be included. It would be a strange contrivance to omit such a common, effective way to defeat evades.