Community Tier Chart

In a way I agree with you but in this case throws should play a role in the punish category, which we kinda agree it doesn't anymore.
What do you guys think ?
3 for Jacky's low seems OK, maybe 3.5 is even better ?

So Jacky's RO potential is below average ?

 

But it definitely should play a part. Maybe leave throws as its own category out, as they play a part in anti-yutori, anti-evade, offense, and punishment. What's the point in regarding them in isolation when the purpose is to use them for all of these things?

 

Jacky's RO potential I think is below average. His throws have no carrying capabilities and his 'change sides' throw is an awkward angle. His combos carry a medium range, but nothing special and he doesn't have many modifications to get extra distance in exchange for less damage. He is pretty good at pressuring the RO once the opponent is already with their back to the edge of the ring (full-circular mid and a throw that pushes you straight back is good), but he can't do any of the 'throw you out of the ring from near the centre' crap that some others can do.

For his lows, I think 3 is too generous, since it puts him at 'better than average' for lows. Like I said before, his low-sweep thing only knocks down on counter, and his only other low is the low-backfist, which is disadvantage even on hit, and is a really piddly amount of damage. Nothing like the stuff a lot of the cast have. Even Wolf has a knockdown on normal hit low that's half circular, and his style is fake!

 

Taka got the grizzly now bro.

 

Fuck are you talking about?

 

I see where your comin from chibiaya but i would give him a 3/5. Genzen is just saying compared to other character his low game IS limited. He doesn't know about that side wall combo 1p and 1K+G though. Besides those 3 all his other lows are predictable. Low slash SSBK, Mid jab low high. they all go high to low. People who play against jacky crouch guard his strings because the last hits are high or low. yes ik SSS is the mix up BUT it can be stopped by 2p. i think le, ka, and Li deserve 4and 5's

 

It's rare this is actually relevant in a fight though. Sure, when it does become a factor, it's quite useful, but to get the fight up to a wall and exactly at the right angle for both players... just doesn't really seem like it's going to be any kind of a factor 99% of the time - I'd rather just have a knockdown on NH sweep or something like Shun's 2KK.

 

what you can do with it is make the opponents freeze up the use OM on wall to use it. it also depends on direction. (Jacky's back towards the wall). But its guaranteed dmg. But its 3/5. Chibiya gave good examples of his 3 good lows. See if he had more good lows like those 3 id give him a 4 maybe 5, but there limited so its 3. Average

 

I guess we're arguing the semantics of 3/5 then. To me, 3/5 is 'better than average', whilst 2/5 is 'worse than average'. I don't think Jacky's lows are better than average, since I believe at least half the cast has as good/better lows than he does.

The main problem is just the lack of a knockdown and lack of damage - there's just no fear involved when considering lows from Jacky. No one really cares if they eat a low-backfist for a pissy 10 damage or whatever, if it means they're defending against all his mids/highs, and covering a throw direction. The whole 'standing guard throw escape' defence is really quite strong against Jacky, as he has to make use of Iaigeri for adv-on-guard (which is hard to do just out of nowhere), watch stance for the K+G 2 K+G (where the low-sweep is guaranteed in closed stance after guarding the high sweep), or try to 'out-guess' the opponent's throw-direction.

Thinking about it that way, I reckon I should probably make more use of neutral throw. The damage itself is garbage, but it's rarely broken, and allows the use of all the 'opponent rising' bollocks (where cheesy Slide Shuffle mid/low mixups start to shine).

I dunno - maybe I'm just biased because I play against a lot of Kage and Lion, who both have really strong lows, but I find it quite annoying that my opponent can just turtle up into 'standing guard throw-escape' defence and be pretty hard to damage, but when I try the same, I just get swept to the ground three/four times in a row, only then to eat an elbow when I go ahead and crouch guard.

 

3 should be average because it's....in the middle.

 

The middle of 5 is 2.5. 3>2.5

 

Ok so let's settle fo a 3 then.
iirc SS low-high string can lead to a serious wall combo with the right distance.

 

If you have 5 people lined up, whose in the middle?

Just Lol.

 

It can, but again, it's distance-dependent, and not something that can just be applied at will. I mean, when you're playing against a Jacky, do you ever really fear his low-strike capability, outside of SS? Do you ever think 'I best work some crouch-guards into my defence to stop those lows of his'? That's basically how I judge their value - how much effect they have on the gameplay. Getting swept to the ground a few times over because I was holding standing guard is going to make me consider different defensive techniques. Getting tagged for 10 damage and being at +1 a few times from a low backfist isn't going to make me change up much of anything.

When I'm using Jacky, low-strikes are the only area that I feel like I'm lacking. I purposely have to force myself to use them just so that I'm mixing things up - I never really feel like I want to use them so much as I have to try to work some in. With most other characters, it seems like they have one or two decent lows they can have as part of their staple 'go-to' toolbox.

 

Fight GT using jacky, myself or denkai. That move is VERY relevant near a wall...and in the fight

 

Fair enough. Maybe I'm not particularly spacial-aware; I just don't find it practical to try to direct a fight towards a wall and then negotiate us both into the right angles and positions just so I can try to slam you against a wall. Seems like I'm gonna lose more fights trying and failing at that than I'm going to win by getting the extra option, and if I just try to wait until if/when the fights naturally progress to the positions where the wall options open up, I might see it happen once every three or four fights.

Would like to fight a strong Jacky though - only one I've found is Zekiel, and he has an... unorthodox way of playing Jacky. Kicks my ass, but I've only really picked up one tactic from him (which, when it works, is like 60% life, so it's quite useful). Need to play someone who's good at beating strong defences and plays the poking game well.

 

Wait, I thought our scale included 0. Or was that just for extreme cases?

 

The sweep only knocks down on CH, is -4 on NH and -18 on guard. For me, the value of a low is to break through standing guard - none of Jacky's are really very effective at that.

Also, isn't there a 0/5 rating? 0,1,2,3,4,5. That's what I was assuming, and is why I've always viewed 3/5 as better than average and 2/5 as worse than average. Guess it's not too important either way.

Also, does anyone know what the minimum amount of Slide Shuffle frames have to be performed before an attack can be launched? Like, I'm wondering what the speed of Slide Shuffle > 2KK is when you factor in the Slide Shuffle start-up.

 

Genzen.... Contrary to what you may believe his low sweep is one of the scariest moves in the game. The thought of it alone could pressure any turtler and create 50\50s.. Secondly if you find it difficult to break an opponents guard thats standing still... Thats your problem.... Not Jacky's.