Community Tier Chart

You know that isn't true

 

Thanks again for all your contributions!

I'm planning to do a community tier chart gathering your info (still not sure how to handle multiple opinions on one char, any idea ? ) .

Also would you think some categories should weight more than others?

Considering Vanessa I pretty much agree with Marly's marks on DS

Here's what I would put:

Weight: 2, I don't put 1 cause for me ther are a lot of combos that work on Aoi that would not work on Vane, so I cannot give them the same mark.

Throws: 4, same as marly

Strings: 2 or 2.5
I don't feel PP is great or am I missing something ? What the difference between this and other chars P into elbow-->confirm--> followup ? For me it serves the same purpose BUT PP is -9 on block where elbows are -4/5. I don't use it much but may be I'm missing the point ?
6P,KK is an OK string but the return on the last hit hit is not that great compared to risk and to what other chars can have (Brad stance strings, last hit of Eileen 6P+K,PP etc)
Originally I had put 2 but P+KP KK and 66PP are not that bad, but I tend to think that strings begin at 3, but I shouldn’t


Mids :2
She has good mids, but who hasn’t ? Still there are some gaps, and for that I think she still is one of the worst in the game. KK is nice but would Brad trade it for his 2P+K,P ? She has no big launchers.
WS P is nice but AFAIK it doesn’t give stagger on crouching hit. Also, you need perfect timing for 14f exe, and the execution is a problem if u need to react fast, still an awesome move against bad strugglers lol.
I can’t think of a char that I would put less than her for the mid category, so she has to be 2 even if she has some ok moves.

Lows : 2
One of the worst if not the worst in the game. She’s the only char I can think of that have a sweep that doesn’t knock down on counter (only one being jumping K). 2K+G also used to create wallstagger with char back to wall, now you must be at a pretty specific angle. I would not put 1 cause 1P+K is quite nice, and 1K+G is interesting.

Standing punish :1 same as marly, probably worst in the game.

Low Punish : 3
Kinda agree with Marly BUT :
Need to check if jaw crusher will stagger, I don’t remember it doing so
Non blocking crouching chars ARE launched as high as standing ones, the difference is on blocking ones.

RO potential : 2, again the worst in the game

Anti yutori : 2, pretty weak, 3K used in the right hands can be helpful, good throw game though.

Anti Evade : 4 pretty strong as Marly said.
Zoning : 3, pretty good but I wouldn’t bet on 66K anymore, it’s range has been really reduced so that you must come in opponent standing P territory in order to hit with it so you will be interrupted. I find K or KK really useful for creating a comfort zone 2D style and it works for me, that’s why I give her 3.


Defense : 5
Finally something where she shines ! Best defense in the game with Aoi. She has a lot of useful moves to play active defense.
46KP is one of the best sabakies i the game
1P is nice to avoid high and lows (no longer works on low rising attacks though)
3P is nice for interrupting otherwise non interruptible flowcharts, or to really limit your opponent counter attacks when at small disadvantage
1P+K is the stance/sabaki killer
46P+K, giving combos for midkicks and knees
Those moves wins you rounds


Wall game :2
Few juggles so no carry to the wall. very few options to create wall stagger when opponent has back to wall. Wall throw not very good
Sidegame : 2 below average, probably the worst in the game (again). From KK options are standard but limited. More choices from K+G CH. Side throw does the least damage in the game (Why ??). She misses that big launcher that becomes safe from side. 3K on crouching hit will not guarantee PK due to 12f punch. She has no catch throws to defeat lazy side TE. She has no knock down lows and if 2K+G hits NH it’s still disadvantage on hit so she struggles against good side lazy TE. Really below average.

Okizeme : 3, like Marly said 66K helps a lot in this oki, jumping low throws/P is an option.
But I don’t get why you say most low rising attacks can be sabakied ? 1P doesn’t sabaki them anymore does it ?
I remember coming to the shout box a while ago saying I felt DS Vane was the worst in the game, people saying she was absolutely not. Still waiting for other chars but she seems to be filling that spot in this list for now

For me it really takes to the player to use her good defensive moves at the right times and it can really destroy opponent offense. I feel she is one of the few chars that still don’t play in “spam-that-super good-move-over-and-over-it’s-safe-and-super-good-reward-mode”. OS Vane is another story though

Will Akira defeat Taka for first place in this list, in mine he didn't

 

Wait, are we supposed to fill in the spreadsheet for all characters? Are you going to compile them afterwards? That would be an awesome idea!

 

Like I said I'm planning on compiling the marks posted here, but that doesn't mean people can't do their own chart and post it if they want

The thing is ther is already several opinions for one chars (Taka for ex) So I'm a bit clueless about how to handle that.

 

Two ways to handle it, really. Either choose one person's opinions per character, and use those, or just take an average of all the opinions given per character. The benefit of the first is that you can select whom you think has the most knowledge or has given the best explanations for their character - the downside is that it's biased and more subjective. The benefit of the second is that it should offer more objectivity since it's an aggregated total, but you run the risk of allowing poorly-constructed and ill-formed opinions to skew the results.

Your call, really.

 

About Taka maybe he should have another category to balance his strenght: the natural combos and NCC of the cast ?
I posted about the 46P+K PP of Goh, I think it's a NC force crouch and +7.

 

Here's my input, gonna try and deal with solid numbers here.

Akira

Weight - 4
Fat guy, weird hitbox.

Throws - 4

Decent damage from his & throws, great positioning & oki on his throws too (especially neutral).

Strings - 1

Akira doesn't know what these are.

Mids - 5

Has one of the strongest elbow class moves in the game, tons of other great mids that are totally safe on block. Could probably talk for days about Akira's mids but the command list is right up there ^

Lows - 2

Not much to say here, is pretty useless though it's exe of 14f does give it limited use.

+ looks great on paper, safe on block, +7 on NH, decent size combo from CH. Exe of 25f and the linearity of this move makes it very situational imo.

Standing Punish - 4

Wasn't sure how to call this due to not knowing the other characters as well as I should, solid standing punishing game for -14 onwards with etc.

Low Punish - 4

Among the best for low punishers in the game imo, for -13 he has dblplm, for -14 to -15, +/Shoulder Ram for -16 ....beyond that you're looking at some tasty damage from minor counter specific combos.

RO potential - 4

Combos can carry quite far, his throws are also good tools for positioning the opponent towards a ring out.

Anti Yutori - 5

13f Guard break and decent variation with his throws, stand there holding at your own risk.

Anti Evade - 3

The master of linearity, that said his half circulars + & ++ are solid this time around and fuzzy safe too. Would have marked him lower but can't ignore those two moves and his throw game.

Zoning/Range - 2

Pretty terrible at long range, has a few moves like and dblplm that make baiting whiffs possible but this is one of Akira's weakest areas.

Defense - 4

Pretty much fuzzy safe after every decent move he has, ++ sabaki for punch/kick class attacks that leads to some big damage. Reversals for stopping stuff mid string.

Wall Game - 5

Pretty average damage at the wall but everything he does will float/wallsplat/kill you so you really don't want to be near the wall against the guy, it doesn't matter if his back or yours is against the wall just get out of there.

Okizeme - 5

Yet another area where Akira shines, he has great tools for Oki. Really easy to time meaty attacks with , , , + etc. Possible to get +13 - +14 on block with meaty ...free guard break :/

Great options for crushing rising attacks too, (again), and even Bodycheck (less people know about this the better) are great tools vs rising attacks.

 

Just checked:
DS Jaw crusher won't stagger on crouching NH or mC
Chars get floated lower when crouched but during mC it's different they get floated like NH standing.
Tested with vane 9K counter on Sarah sweep.

 

Obviously the biggest issue once the data is compiled is that people can and do have wildly different ideas about other characters and their strength. In fact, it seems to be a habit for people to downplay their character. Focusing on their shortcomings rather than their strengths.

This is a common phenomenon withing fightings games known as Hazzerone syndrome.

I'm unfamiliar with Lau in FS. Not a clue what he can do. My only experience is getting raped in the side by Krye once or twice. With this experience I would give Lau an innacurate reading because I'm not aware of his downfalls because the person I associate with him really doesn't show them.


I think my blaze is accurate yet I don't doubt other people will have differing opinions. Also, a 1-5 scale only causes issues. Vanessa a 1 in weight? That's where i put blaze. I eouldvhavevhad vane at 2 at the very least

Needs to be a curve of some point. Some sort of standard Akira is a 4? I would have said 3.5 with jeff and wolf at 4.

 

Taka is pretty unique as far as weight is concerned, sure he's the heaviest in the game bit his weight also brings drawbacks that don't apply to any other character. For that reason I find it odd to pin his weight down with just a number. So Akira and other mid-heavyweights = 4, Jeff/Wolf = 5 makes sense to me.

Tbh, decimals over complicate things imo. A scale out of 10 would make more sense.

 

Eileen and Blaze are the same weight class, so both should be 0.

 

Weight class encompasses weight + hitboxes. Taka being the heaviest makes it damn near impossible to keep him in the air, but his hitboxes make it possible to pull off damaging combos against him that won't work with any other character in the game. Same goes for Eileen.

So Taka being a 6 and Eileen being a 0 with everyone else filling out the middle makes perfect sense to me...

 

LAU

Weight (3/5)
Absolute middle of the road for Lau. Most combos will work on him, and he doesn't have any special types of hitboxes as far as I know. Can't get the super amazing SLW or LW combos on him though.

Throws (3.5/5)
Only reason I give him a 3.5 is because I don't think he's quite a 4, but he's not a 3 either. His throws don't have high damage. His highest damage forward throw is 60 damage (good!). His highest damage back throw is 50 but hardly the one that's threatening. The throw that nearly makes him a 4 in my book is . Guaranteed side turned situation and mixup. Can also lead to wall combos with the right positioning.

Strings (mixups) (3/5)
Lau's strings are lackluster at best, with nearly all of them being high strings, or mid high. He has one high mid string and it starts with a relatively slow (17f) high. His real strength is in hit-check ability. His 6pp can be hitchecked, as well as his 3ppk (disadvantage afterwards). His best strings are his +1 strings, which can all be stanced after, leaving you at +3. I'd say these strings very nearly make him a 4.

Mids (4/5)
Standard elbow. VERY good 3k. And 4k is great pressure near the wall. His 66p+k turns men into women near the wall. And his 4p+k, while slow, still leads to big combos on CH.

Lows(2/5)
His 2k+g is among the slowest sweeps in the game, and is only half circular, and STILL gives -18. It's range is it's only saving grace. His 1p (special low) is great for evading highs, and can stagger on wall hits. 1k can lead to specific wall combos and is great for interrupting the flow of the enemy (though i'd still say 1p is better).

Standing Punish(4/5)
46p. Not much else to say. It's great for +15 punishes. He needs to be +20 and up for bigger damage on standing opponents which isn't great. Realistically, he can punish with 2_3pp+k on +16 and up, but the buffering is very hard for punishing while standing.

Low Punish (crouching opponent) (2/5)
I felt like Low Punish has to be cut up into 2 parts for Lau. He gets no real punish on a low that leaves the opponent crouching until -18. And you have to waste ZERO frames with a 46p input to get the punish, which can be difficult. While Rising K and standard 6pp can be used at +15.

Low Punish (standing opponent) (5/5)
2_3pp+k on mCH launches. Big combo. Can be done at +15 or more. Nuff said. Best low punish in the game if the opponent is standing.

RO potential (3/5)
His 3p+k combos can carry pretty darn far, although at 20f and -15 it's a hard move to land. The real meat of his RO ability is from 46p (safe and the combo carries relatively far), and his 2_3pp and 4p+kp on CH, which are + on block and lead to large floats on CH. His throws are basically terrible for ringout ability. He can control sidesteps near the edge of the ring rather well with 66p+k and 6k+g. 66p+k pushes the opponent toward lau's backside well enough. And 6k+g on hit makes the opponent fly pretty darn far to the side, making his parallel to the edge of the ring game pretty good.

Anti Yutori(4/5)
Assuming Akira = 5/5 for yutori, Lau's guard break lands him at 4, just for being slower. His lows don't help him here, 1kk doesn't combo on normal hit. 2k+g knocks down but is really slow.

Anti Evade(3/5)
His 46p+k can lead to very damaging combos if you evade the wrong way. 66p+k is a nightmare near the wall. His 4k+g and k+g are both slow, and his 6k+g, while fast, is unsafe.

Zoning/Range(4/5)
Lau's 46p travels a lot further than Goh or Akira's, making it pretty damn good for space punishing. His 3k has ridiculous range. His other rangy move is 33p, and 33pp leaves you at +1 making it great for closing gaps(slow move though). Overall I'd say Lau fights better in close, where his frame traps with 2_3pp and 4p+kp can begin.

Defense(3/5)
Lau relies almost entirely on basics for defense. He lacks a sabaki or reversal of any kind. However, he does have several high crushes (sweep, 1p, 1kk) And several low crushes (8k+g, 7,8,9p+k) Both make him jump however, which can lead to combos if you get jabbed out of them. His other evasive move is 1p+k, which moves him back a bit and leads to a very small combo.

Wall Game(5/5)
Among the best if I say so myself. 4k staggers on wall. 66p+k for side wall hits as well as 1k. His 214p+g throw can lead to wall staggers given the right spacing. His guard break can lead into small wall combos in the right stance. 6p+g can lead to wall combos. The possibilities are almost limitless for him.

Edit: Stop using 0's and 6's lol. Eileen and Blaze are 1s. Hands down. Taka is a strange 5. And I say that because some characters get BETTER combos on Taka than they do on Jeff or Wolf.

 

It's because people have a better idea of their own main characters strengths and weaknesses. In my opinion people who don't play a character can vastly overestimate that characters strengths because they aren't familiar of the right way to play against it.

I played a bit of Lion recently and now I understand better why he is top tier, lol.

I dont understand why Blaze is different from Eileen, they seem identical in terms of combo weight to me. Even in some hitbox cases they seem similar (like for example Brad CH 6_K 9P+K whiffing on them both in open etc)

 

From my experience with Vane and Lion combos I cannot put Aoi and Blaze in the same category than Sarah/Pai/Vanessa.

When Eileen combos don't work on Aoi there usually is a substitue for very few points of damage less for Aoi. Then there is usually less damage for the 3 others.

Take OS Vane 9P (NH) combos, on any hit they will give K P ISK,3KK for massive damage on Eileen, Blaze, Aoi, then it stops and you have to do other combos for the rest of the cast.
Same idea with Lion's 33P combos.


@Manji there are a lot of Eileen only combos that won't work on Blaze cause of it's weird hitbox.
I agree with Marly that Eileen is a category on his own.



But Marly's list also makes sense if you don't want to go into decimals. I feel decimals are OK, it's just another way to have a /10 scale and it allows for the perfect average at 2.5.



Thanks Feck for your input on Akira, anyone got something to say about Feck's marks ?

I would rank low punish a bit under at 3.5 cause he has no low throws and is 16 frame punish is OK but not as good as Brad or Taka. Alos does 6KP mC combos match Brad's knee combos in term of damage, I haven't checked. But I guess it's debatable


On mids I didn't put 5/5 to Akira cause he doesn't have:
-A 16 frame confirmable mid to juggle
-A semi circular that launches on CH or a special high like 6_K
-A 14 frame confirmable elbow
-mid strings
-« he doesn’t have a full cicular »

What I meant was that his mids are very strong but you can evade them for medium risk.

For me the king of mids in this game is Brad that's why I ranked him at 5. Am I the only one who thinks that ? Is Jacky Better ?
Brad mids are extremely good, he got almost everything (semis,range, 44K for zoning, confirmable elbow, 16 frame confirmable mid with multi-hit, 6_K, jumping mids, a semi circular that gives + on block, confirmable mid strings that gives combo on second hit)

Only thing he lacks for me is anti sabaki mids like Shoulder moves or headbutt so he may struggle a bit more against Aoi or chars with good sabakies(those chars still need to guess between P or K attacks, and Brad has a lot of good kicks).


Also we got two marks for Taka’s mid Yomi gave 5/5, Maxou gave 3/5, could we agree on 4/5 ?
That’s what I had ranked him.
What he has :
-4P+K,P, aka one of the best move in the game, with this move alone I cannot go under 3.5
-One of the best midkick K in the game (best range by far and +1 on hit unlike most (all ?) midkicks) for a sumo to have the best K that’s logical doesn’t it ? -_-
-Knee launcher/string for those punch sabakies
-More anti sabakies stuff with 3P+K/two handed strikes
-A 3 hits delayable mid string
-Massive range on his 33P+K, seems to tech crouch a little and insane damage/carry on CH for those desperate comeback times ^^.
-Good OTG moves
-Moves that are + on block for TR


What he doesn’t have :
-only one semi-circular, and no special high semi
-No full circular mid
-no 14 frame confirmable elbow followup

 

Thanks Johoseph

I think I agree with all your marks. For low punish I will put the average of the 2 marks you gave so 3 ?

About Taka being 6, I was trying to represent:
- the fact that some moves don't even knock him down even on CH,
- It shuts down character RO game completely ! Everyone speaking about damage but basicaly Taka's weight is an insurrance of not being Taken to the wall that easily and not being RO much.


For combos I think the occurences where he takes less damage weights a lot more than the rare times he gets to eat more.Think of it like that, would you trade your char weights for Taka's ? I would say 100% yes, it's definitely a + for him.


To be fair the chart lacks a part for the strings that are guaranteed on him that may change the match, but it's really character dependant so it's hard to show in the chart.
Maybe giving him 5 instead of 6 in the weight class is the simple way to take that into account ?

 

Just make Taka 5 and Jeff and Wolf 4.5 in weight, Taka is the heaviest so that makes the point clear

4P+KP alone bumps Taka's mid game up to 4 for me, all the other goodies like K are the extra points. For "no 14 frame confirmable elbow followup" 66PP is hitconfirmable if you ask me, but it's not an elbow though. He also has more than one half circular move, also 4P+K+G after absorbing a hit is full circular, unblockable and special high, but that's a rather special case.

 

Imho, the best way to correctly poll opinions is to ask participants to RANK each character for each category. Which one do you think is the worst, say for example, when it comes to punishment, the least worst, the somewhat less worst etc. all the way to the absolute best for the punishment category, then move on to the next category.