Community Tier Chart

Compiling has begun:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq4G2cgfZ2JwdGg0YmNGc1dBWTlNVmdRU1ZZcTZUbkE

 

The simplest way to take that in account would be to make a character match up thread for every character. You'll have your theorical tier list then.
But it will need a lot, a big big big lot of discussion !
And character knowledge too.

I always found those thread interesting, we learn stuff that we wouldn't without training mode, or explain stuff that we didn't think of explaining, etc...

Akira doesn't need all that !!!
Are you talking about his middle overall, or his middle used in gameplay?

About Taka :
Akira's safety alone makes his middles WAY better than Taka's. And don't forget he has two semi circular middle in both side...
Taka doesn't. Everything can be evaded to the stomach against Taka ... I can't agree on 4/5 if Akira has 4/5.

Some remarks :

Actually that K is strong but not as a middle tool (it's really strong as a antibackdash tool). It's only +1 on hit, -8 on block, the pressing afterward is fairly limited.
Besides you mostly use K to whiff punish at range in a safe way, most of the time you're not even in range to follow up with anything after K.

Doesn't need CH to deal big damage or to have really good carry. But it's -17... And terrible on evade.

And by the way :

What he really doesn't have :
- Semi-circ that could hit someone if he evaded 33G to the stomach. He actually has some semi-circular (4P, 1P+K, 2P+K, FC 6P) but all of them get owned by evade 33G to the stomach.
- Full circular mids... Taka has wet dreams about them.

 

Really don't think it's as simple as Taka = the heaviest so he automatically gets a 5. Like I said earlier he has drawbacks that no other weight class has.

1. He can't CD fuzzy at -5.

2. His floor recovery is different from the rest of the cast, makes it easier to time meaty attacks on him among other disadvantges in oki situations.

3. He can be combo'd in situations other characters can't, combine this with my previous point and guessing between doing floor recovery or eating extra damage is a hard choice for Taka players.

4. Him being the heaviest doesn't necessarily mean he eats the least damage. Two of my launchers, and on Taka are equal to if not more than the damage these moves do to lightweights and though my knowledge for other characters isn't the best out there I do know this isn't exclusive to Akira.

N/A makes more sense than a 5 for Taka.

 

Oh and Chibitox, Akira gets 60 - 90ish from mC. Don't think low throws really matter for his low punish game, he doesn't need them.

 

It's just that weight is kind of two categories in one : max guaranted damage sensitivity and ring out'/carrying to the wall sensitivity ( floats combos, NC combos on Taka), but the number would be the other way round ^^.
By the way is there some list of natural combos on Taka by each character ?

 

aoi weight:1.7 she is very light but knowing your opponents launchers helps put her amazing defense into play
throws: 4.5 if your opponents is not familiar with it her chain throw can devastate them with 102 damage she has a position change throw a backwards catch throw and ground throws plus an amazing hit throw 3 which can go under highs and do 60 damage
mixups/strings: 3.5 her sundome really helps use it right and you will be knocking your opponents all around the ring
ro potential: 4 her catch throw and 66 can be godly here
anti evade: 4.5 very good all 7 of her elbows are half circular and she has 2 full circular lows zoning:4 66 is very scary but it can be cancel to act like a forward dash but the opponent will be to scared to attack in fear of a counter hit and her crouch dash is very safe because it can be turned into a hit throw
defense: 10 it speaks for its self

 

Everyone needs everything they can get, that's like saying having a 6_K type move wouldn't help Akira. I don' get the second sentence ? In what else can middles be used ? kitchen recipes ?

Having a two hit mid string that gives combo on 2nd hit kindah make the first hit mega safe, even better than SDE, even on evades you still have a threat. Moreso true against ring edge.
Originaly I gave 4.5 to Akira and 4 to Taka, cause of semis so I don't forget that aspect.
If you put 3/5 you put Taka on par with El Blaze mids, seriously do you think it's true ?
I think you need to play AGAINST 4P+K a bit more lol.
Anyway I think Taka and Akira both are very good in mids, so may be it's a bit exagerated to say "WAY better" ? What do you guys think ?

I don't get it. Nobody said it was strong for standard middle use, 4P+K is far better.
But compared to other chars single hit mid kick:
- it has better range so it's better for fishing backdashes.
- it's +1 on hit (others are 0 or have different properties)

So overall it's just a better version of everyone's single hit midkick that don't kock down and one of the best ranged move in the game. By the way And it's not -8 but -6 on block. May be you want to trade it against El Blaze' s or Eileen 's midkick ? ^^

-17 on Taka means damage close to what chars get for -15. It's -17 to ensure people can get real damage if they blocked cause a lot of chars get shitty damage at -15 on him.
It's terrible on evade like all 17 frames launchers, but it has a lot more range than most of them and is two handed.

You are mixing things up. I was talking specificaly about mid category, so when I say only one semi, I'm obviously talking about MID-semis, I know he has high/low semis...

 

After Akira elbows I think Taka 4P+KP is the best mid in the game. But it's no contest against SDE, 15f mid elbow that knocks down (and launches Taka) on normal hit and launches on CH with ridiculous range.

 

Most of people (like you Chibitox) play passive against 4P+KP.
"OMG he made 4P+K ! Let's wait for the second hit !" Just... don't !
Mixing it up with attack (not no 2P or P, just use any good launcher)/evade 33G destroy any kind of pressure I could do after 4P+K blocked, risk/reward wise.
Taka's mids are not THAT good. 4P+K will only get you so far. Apart from 4P+K there's nothing really threatening.

I can't talk about El Blaze mids, but seriously, they're not that bad from what I could see.

And Akira will always be the god of mids for me. You put a list of things he lacks, which he doesn't really lack since he doesn't need it....

 

Trying to harmonize marks a little, I put some colors on some marks I feel don't make sense compared to others.

blue= a bit low
orange= a bit high


For exemaple Brad throw game seems a bit too high at 4. Basically his throw game is the same as Jean but with a catch throw that has no guaranteed damage. Jean' throw game is at 1 and I think everybody agrees he may be the worst in this category. So we can't put a 4. Characters with a 4 have far better options than Brad.
I guess we could go with a 2.

From discussions on the shoutbox we came to a some kind of consensus on throws:

5- Taka, Wolf
4.5 - Aoi, Goh
4 - DS Vane, Kage, Akira, OS Vane, Blaze, Jeffry?
3.5 - Pai
3 – Lion, Lau, Shun (1 undrunk, 5 when 10 + drunks = 3 average)
2.5- Eileen, Sarah
2- Brad, Lei Fei, Jacky
1-Jean

No one for Kage at 4.5 ?

 

Nitpicking, but I don't think Jacky's throws are any weaker than Eileen's (or any better). I also think Kage's throws are on-par with Aoi and Goh - the TFT is such a threat that it almost makes his other direction guaranteed, and then with all his ring-out potential and wall-throws, the only reason he wouldn't be with Taka and Wolf is because they have the silly stupid way too much damage of doom.

Not knowing much about Aoi, I'm curious why she's rated as good as Goh (or stronger than those on 4). When I play against her, she doesn't seem to be as strong with throws as Goh or Kage. Sure, her strings and cancels and mix-ups allow her to land more, but I'm under the assumption that those strengths would be applied to the mix-ups/strings categories, not the throw one.

Just my half a nickel.

 

Her 270 4-direction throw allows for guaranteed down attack for 70 and 270 6-direction does 65 so damage is on par with Goh on those + she's got better positioning choices with some other throws.

For low throws Aoi has 60/55/60 while Goh has 55/25+tsukami/55.

Both have BT catch throw and groundthrows (Aoi's able to set them up better if you're willing).

For shenanigans Aoi also has her multiparts. I don't really see why Aoi would be lower than Goh.

 

@Genzen
Jacky= 60/50 throws
Eileen = 60/55 throws

Aoi also got that unescapable back throw to 40% against a wall.
Near walls she got that positionning throw for 40% (+ ?)

I kindah agree with you on TFT, still he has no catch throw, no low throws. But I wouldn(t mind putting him at 4.5. Even if its best damage throw is consistently escaped he still has a 60 damage one in his pocket, pretty strong.

 

You don't think the guaranteed pounce (if they don't tech) from Jacky's forward direction gives him enough weight to contend with Eileen? I know it is technically avoidable, but not everyone is going to tech-roll every time (and maybe the fact that you're forcing a tech gives a better opportunity to maintain pressure?).

 

@Kage

No catch throws, no low throws. Lower damage than Aoi and Goh right? Can't see why he'd be on par with Aoi and Goh

 

Kage with no catch throw ? Are you sure ? What's the P+G thing he has from BT ?

 

Because he has the best throw in the game (86 on 80% of the cast)
Because he can RO you from miles away with it
Because he can RO you over half fences with it
Because he gets even more damage with walls on TFT
Because he is a ninja

@kingo: you are right, not much used though.

 

Cool, he has a decent throw When you compare Kage/Goh's throw game as a whole ...wait nvm you can't, there is no comparison :/

Got me on ninja.

 

Yep on the whole Goh has more tools
But as far as standing throws are concerned

forward :
Goh=70
Kage= 86 + all the shit I said earlier

back:
Goh= 65
Kage = 60

Kage wins hands down.
Kage also has some side throw shenanigans near walls with 1P+K for nice damage.

Goh has those low and ground throws but I think we agree they have less impact on the final mark. Really I think 4 or 4.5 is debatable.