Community Tier Chart

Discussion in 'General' started by Chibitox, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. Genzen

    Genzen Well-Known Member

    I think the RO potential of TFT definitely makes Kage on-par with Goh. Sure, you *should* always break TFT, but you're not always throw-escaping, and by resigning yourself always to breaking TFT means every throw-counterable situation is a guaranteed 60 damage for Kage - or you risk eating the big-nasty TFT. Also, whenever you're within range of being RO'ed by TFT, you pretty much have to choose to break TFT, so you don't even have the option of [sensibly] choosing to break backwards to try to 'out-guess' Kage - the risk of RO is just too much. Then add on all the low-wall ROs from the middle of the ring and whatnot... it's just such a threatening tool that it casts a shadow over the entire match and alters the way you approach defending yourself.
     
  2. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

    PSN:
    kingofvf5
    XBL:
    kingofvf4
    My input on Aoi

    AOI

    Weight - 1
    Obvioulsy, big combo time everytime you launch her

    Throws - 4.5
    60 + 10 for 4 , and 65 for 6
    Positionning with 6 [P][+][G] followed by the appropriate direction for potential RO or Wall combos
    3 different low throws

    Strings - 3
    [P] strings and elbows strings what can be cancelled into safe sundome [K]

    Mids - 3 or 3.5
    43[P] 13 fr mid double handed attack
    66[P] with long range, not bad unless your opponent is back to wall
    Others mids are pretty safe but not offer much advantage on hit, unless it's a launcher.

    Lows - 2.5
    The famous sweep 2[K][+][G], can cancel the block animation with Tenchi
    1[P] is half circular, but slow. She has also a low kick that gives +4 on NH but it's unsafe and she can only access to it after a jump or Tenchi 6 so not that usable.

    Standing punish - 2,5
    Only [P][K] for -13, 6[P][P] for -14 but -1 on NH, 64[P][+][K][P] at -15 for 38 dmg. Not very good for blocking an unsafe launcher...
    At -17, she has the hit throw, and above -19, her launcher 33[P][+][K] or 66[K]

    Low Punish - 3.5
    Her hit throw [2_]3 [P]:[P][+][G] helps a lot against unsafe low from -16.
    Below, you have 6[P][P] or low throws.
    66[K] launches regularly even a crouch recovering foe.

    Ring Out potential - 3.5
    [P][P]6[P][P] is all you need...:D
    And at angles [P][P]2or8[P][P]

    Anti Yutori - 2.5
    A catch throw but need to be BT, and cancel sudome to mess up a little with lazy TE.

    Anti-evade - 3
    "Semi safe" Sweep 2[K][+][G] , slow [K][+][G], and 17fr full circular 4[P] but high and sabaki-able.
    Also, 66[P] and 4[K] evadable on different direction.

    Zoning / Range - 3
    66[P] and 66[P][+][K] with good range
    66[K] covers a long distance after baiting a whiff, and is a launcher.

    Defense - 5
    Should I say more ? lol
    Tenchi Stance, a sabaki against punch and elbows type attacks, a sabaki for kick and knee type attacks, and reversals for almost everything.

    Wall Games - 4
    She can gently lead you to the wall with her throw 6[P][+][G] followed by the right direction, or after a parry and if you' re back to the wall, beware her catch throw from BT or her half circular 66[P] . She can also make you travel to the wall during her juggles with [P][P]6[P][P] and even [P][P]2or8[P][P].

    TOTAL : 40 - 41
     
  3. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
    XBL:
    MarlyJay
    66P and 4K.Mid and special high, 2 of the better half circular moves in the game. Neither of which can be blocked with Evade cancel at -4. On top of that she has what is probably the best sweep in the game against a lot of the cast. And you give her a 3 for anti evade? C'mon she's gotta be considered above average.

    I think 2.5 for standing punish is overly generous given what you've just described as well.
     
  4. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Os Vane:

    weight : 1.5 to make Marly happy ;) (honestly I kindah agree with u, sometimes she even eats Eileen only combos)

    Throws: 3.5 or 4.
    50/60 throws would put her below 3, but the catch may be thes best in the game. and hcb can hurt u.

    Strings: 3.5
    some good strings, but they are pretty specific with lots of highs. Her P+K strings are very good. Some of her strings are very good against Taka.

    Mids: 4 or 4.5 very good mids and 6_K and 9P are amazing. Still she lacks semis to be a 5.

    Lows: 3 No full circulars and no knockdown even on CH keep her from being a 4. But 1P has very good stats. 1K+G is hard to use outside of tech roll pressure, but if you keep it at that it's a good move too.
    2K has very good reach

    Standing punish: 4.5
    11 to 13=PK
    14 to 16=6P+K for up to 75 on lightweights and 60/70 on others
    17= 9K = censored

    Low Punish: 3 Good, but no 16 frames launcher and no low throws keep her from being among the best.

    RO: 3.5. 9P combos carry is good but they end very low to the ground so you won't even pass super low fences. 9K carries a lot but it's a risky move. catch throw is very good for auto RO.

    Anti Yutori: 3 No guard breaks, but catch throw does the job. Still not has good as guard breaks though.

    Anti evade: 3.5 or 4
    6_K, 2K+G, 1P, 4PK and catch throw are pretty versatile.
    K+G will kill you if you escape on TR.

    Range/Zoning: 66K+G has great range, 4 K not bad, K+G can have it's uses too.

    Defense: 2
    9P jumps over lows on frame 1 with good reward so that keeps her from being a 1. otherwise she has no sabakies.
    1P tech crouches like other chars do, nothing special

    Wall Game: 3.5
    Catch throw is good against the wall. 2K+G wallstaggers on NH, 1P gives 110 when // with back to wall. 66P against crouch will give wall stagger too.

    TOTAL 42.5
     
  5. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

    PSN:
    kingofvf5
    XBL:
    kingofvf4
    And it's coming from someone who gives Eileen 2 for anti-evade ? lol
    Eileen has a fast high full circular K+G, two sweeps, 4K ( ok it's high but still ) what side turns, 4P+K what covers her back ( 4P+K CH lead to free qcf+KKK or qcb+PK right ? ), 4K+G and a catch throw.

    For Aoi, 66P's downside is the push back even on hit. 4K stagger is nice though.
    I forgot to talk about her cancel to bait failed evade though, so that's why I can put a 3.5, not for the 66P / 4K thing.
     
  6. Genzen

    Genzen Well-Known Member

    As an ex-Eileen player, I can certainly say that, in practice, dealing with evades is a pain in the ass, and was actually one of the main reasons why I switched to someone else. All of her main toolbox attacks are linear, and she mainly has to rely on delays to cause failed evade, or use an 'evade-beating' attack, that usually fails in other areas. If I remember correctly (which I might not - been a while since I played her), she doesn't have any mids that are even half-circular, and doesn't even have many highs/lows that are half-circular.

    K+G is alright, but it's high and doesn't knockdown on hit, and having it guarded or crouched leaves you back-turned and at a disadvantage - not a great place to be.

    Her low sweeps are both very meh. 2K+G doesn't knock down, is -18 on guard, -6 on normal hit, and neutral on counter hit. 3K+G is again -18 on guard, and has a 30 frame execution time. Not even sure how long a full failed evade takes, but I'm guessing this is cutting it close to catch it.

    4K, 4K+G, and 4P+K are all half-circular high attacks - nothing special and you'll find half-a-dozen scattered across most characters' moveslist. Not something that's going to make an opponent think 'I better not evade right now'.

    Catch throw is okay, but it's very slow, can be evade>crouch-dashed to cause a whiff (resulting in Eileen falling on her ass), or simply attacked for a free float, since she's already in the air. I wouldn't often recommend randomly throwing out Zenk > catch-throw without setting it up in a string.


    Just my observations, as someone who's played and quit Eileen precisely because of having issues dealing with evades.
     
  7. Maxou

    Maxou Well-Known Member

    About Aoi :
    Aoi's strings are way better than 3 IMO. The cancel sundome makes them incredibly strong and a pain in the ass to deal with.
    Aoi's all about string for her pressure game, I don't understand why you put them as "low" as 3. Would you explain?

    About Kage :
    Definitively one of the strongest throw game.
    Okay he lacks low throws or ground throw but his RO potential or wall combo potential out of TFT makes up for it.
    There's TONS of situations where you won't be able to break an other throw than TFT. That's basically free 60dmg.

    That's what makes Taka's throw game so strong too, there's tons of situation where you can't break an other throw than backward because if you don't, you will either get ROd or get wall comboed into oblivion.
     
  8. Genzen

    Genzen Well-Known Member

    I'd agree that Aoi's strings are some of the best. The speed and level mix-ups, combined with all those cancel options to stop and throw or start a new combo or whatever... you never truly know when she's 'finished' or when you can attack.
     
  9. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    @Chibitox: lol i disagree with everything except the weight :crazy: Anyway, i'll stick to specific moves:

    OS f,f+k crouch stagger p > combo is a 16f low punisher. We've discussed this in the past. It might be "hard to buffer f,f" but it's still there and does decent damage, can RO over low fences. Besides, theoretical tier chart, remember? ;)

    F+k and uf+p are special highs. Not mids. I think that one is obvious enough. No mention of df+k+g? It's safe and creeps into launcher damage. f,f+k?

    What sort of "good stats" does db+p have? It's -4 on NH, +4 on CH. If it's used to crush highs you get a RH for -4. If it's used to track stomach, well, why not use F+k then? Or her other two semicirculars that actually knock down? AFAIK its only use seems to be near walls :confused:

    Finally, range/zoning requires mention of jump > k IMHO. That move has crazy range.
     
  10. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
    XBL:
    MarlyJay
    Well we have to consider what an opponents possible responses are to see what makes a good anti evade move. Your opponent can abare, block or evade front or back. If the moves are mid or special high, they should count for more as they cover abare and one of the 2 directions. Aoi has both directions covered in this regard, with moves that are fast enough that evade dash cancel doesn't become a factor. This is actually pretty rare. You add that to her very good sweep and i'd say Aoi is one of the better characters in the game in terms of coverage.

    Eileen on the other hand doesn't even have a single mid/special high half circular. Even though she has decent coverage in terms of direction and speed, It makes her more vulnerable to the stupidly simple 2P/evade defence. Also her K+G is garbage. definitely below average.

    add the fact the risk on Aoi's moves is lower and the reward a bit higher and it's easy to see the clear difference. I'd say she's at least 3.5. Possibly a 4. Again, how many characters have safe mid/sp.highs in BOTH directions?
     
  11. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    You are right about 66K for punishing lows, may be I should upgrade her to 3.5 or 4 then

    I know 6_K and 9P are sepcial highs but if you use 6_K in nitaku situations (where throws can't be crouched) its purpose is the same as a mid, except it has better properties.

    9P has to be mentioned somewhere, I will not create a special high category, it would influence the global mark too much for a few moves.

    About 1P: maybe you forgot to say that : IT'S SAFE ON BLOCK
    At the end of the match it's good to have a low that will not fuck you up on block
    +4 Ch is something she can work with using 6_K
    See it as option select for guard + 50-50 on escape.
    Using it after a BD at advantage will take care of:
    failed Evades, guard Lazy TE, low punch AKA what people do.
    If they low block you are safe.

    Near the wall it either creates a wall combo if // or a strong 50/50 on NH if opponent is back to wall.
     
  12. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Sorry but, according to the command list, it will only beat low punch from +10. Which sounds rather pointless. If you want to beat failed evade and/or TE there's the catch throw.

    Look, i'm not debating your score about OS lows. But i sincerely think she deserves it because of d+k+g. I can't think of any other character that has a low that can switch positioning with the opponent. OK, maybe shun, but he has to be in lie down stance first.

    Maybe it's because my alt used to be Lion, but really, i find db+p unimpressive. I throw it out from time to time when i have the lead for shits and giggles but that's it. It's not rewarding enough for a 22f move.
     
  13. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

    PSN:
    kingofvf5
    XBL:
    kingofvf4
    Since it's the anti-evade category, the move should count more if it actually beats evade and evade cancel dash more than abare. I wouldn't say Eileen's K+G is garbage, it's 17 frames. Can't be beaten by evade dash cancel. Same for her others half circular like 4K, 4P+K, 4K+G.
    That's why she derserves more than 2 IMO.

    For Aoi, the problem is she has only 66P to cover her back. Forget about her slow 1P. And unless there is a wall, that move isn't much a threat. Her sweep is still 20 fr, and not because she can enter Tenchi after doesn't make it unpunishable, good players still make her pay.
     
  14. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf Content Manager Sarah

    My 2 cents about:

    Wolf

    weight (4/5)
    With Jeffry he's one of the heaviest character in the game (besides taka of course). No need further explanations.

    throws (5/5)
    He's a grappler, so his throw game is too damn good. The only character who can compete as good grappler is probably Taka, but Wolf has a 100dmg throw, a PGS that combos with walls (97 with [4][6][P] at right distance and [6][2][K] when near the opponent) and does ring out without them.
    Good back damage with throws (75dmg with the F5) and many catches that always gives a strong choice between 3 options.
    He has also low and ground Throws!

    strings (2/5)
    He's not Akira but damn he just have [P][P][P] and [P][6][P][P] Definetly one of the reason i can't keep pressure on many opponents.

    Mids (4/5)
    Great mids but sometimes a little bit slow. He has 3 14f mid: [3][P], screw hook, and [2_][3][6][P] the last one is great to punish low hits that leaves you at +14 since is a while rising attack.

    lows (1/5)
    He has no lows. Just [6][2][K] which is good only in CH. In NH it will just stagger your opponent and give you no advantage. At least it has to be blocked low to leave you just at -18... He also has [2][K] which is at 0 in CH -6 on hit and -15 on block... and that's it!

    standing punish (4/5)
    Some nice punishment but not the best one. -9 he has [6][P]+[G] whichs is a 9f exe throw that changes besides the condidions (no walls 50 damage, with wall 75, also is still 9f even from the side or back). Ok it's a throw so maybe it's not a real punishment but still a way to express the throwing nature of this character; -14 just the Elbow [3][P]; -15 is where the party starts with [4][P] which leads to a little combo (the lighter the better of course); -16 [6][P][P]+[K] or [4][K]+[G]![P]+[G] for the guessing game between the 3 follow up of the hit throw. at 16 also the Burning Hammer will connect but a throw is never a real punish. The my favorite [4][6][P] no combos garanteed but great damage for a single blow and great push; -18 [6][P]+[K] with his combos.

    low punish (3/5)
    Low throws for -10 situations; -14 [2_][3][6][P] or screw hook (really hard to input in time but it's a natural combo on a crouched opponent; -17 [4][6][P], [4][K]+[G] and his follow ups; -18 [6][P]+[K] which leads to a combo if used as punishment otherwise the opponent won't float high enough for the full combo.

    ro potential (5/5) 2nd only to Taka and Kage i guess
    PGS for a throw ring out when at +10, [6][6][P]+[K] pushes far away; [4][P]+[G] to switch position and a istant RO when Wolf is near the edge; great catch which gives you great control of the ring (when you aren't too obvious); [4][6][P] as combo ender pushes the opponent really far away. Also for the low stage many moves gives you a RO like: the screw hook; [4][6][P]+[K]; [6][P]+[K]; [2_][3][P] in CH; i can go on but i made my point.

    anti yutori (3/5)
    Not really sure about this, he has 2 nice throw direction (altought only [6] is the favorite one), good catches and a guard break that gives you a guessing game. So there's no guaranteed damage like Jean, Lion, Lau or Akira can have (i'm sure i forgot other dudes but i can't list everybody each time).

    anti evade (3/5)
    A slow full circular that is +9 in CH (nothing is guaranteed and the 9f exe throw can be evaded); a fast mid (screw hook 14f exe) and a 22f exe high hit that leads to a hit throw to cover his back; 2 mid kicks the first 18f exe which gives knock down and the 2nd 24f exe for a big combo. It's not really easy evade against this big guy but not impossibile especially when at small disadvantage.

    zoning/range (3/5)
    [4][6][P] is the only fast long range attack that this guy has but it's enough to scare people to now whiff anything. If your opponent like to back dash a lot [3][K] is your move with [4][K]. There also a chance to use the Burning Hammer with a back dashing opponent and still catch him off guard, but it's also risky.

    defense (4/5)
    Wolf is a Turtle, he has to block a lot and then takes is great chance to deal a big damage all at once. However he has some tools that make harder attack him like the RAW that eats all the high and medium pokes with one single hand, the only condition to have a successfull raw is that the hit has to be One handed or single kick with no quick follow up and shouldn't give knock down.
    To deal with low punches he has also 2 great tools: low reversal and bounding elbow :)9:[P]+[K]). The reversal gives you 3 choice: the hit throw with [P]+[G]; the switch with [4] or a guessing game since you are in advantage. Usually i like to do a big throw for the win.
    There's also [6][K]+[G] which avoids low when + on frames and avoids highs (just in the early execution) when ad disadvantage.

    wall game (5/5)
    One of the best damage dealer with a wall. Many hit gives you Wall splat on normal hit, but also other fast hit gives you a wall splat on counter hit so never have a wall behind you if you wanna survive agasint Wolf. If Wolf catches you near a wall be sure to escape NEUTRAL when the wall is behind you and escape BACK when HE has the wall behind (altought if he does [4][P]+[G] when in catch you can escape the struggle to avoid the combo). The damage is insane and if you'r light enough he may also reset the situation for another guessing game with [2][P]+[G]

    Any criticism will be apreaciate.
     
  15. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter


    No need to be sorry, you just need to re-read what I wrote.
    "Using it after a BD at advantage will take care of:
    failed Evades, guard Lazy TE, low punch"

    Try it after 9P, it will beat everything I said. Of course there are better options to beat evades like delayed knee or whatever, but what if they stand P or just guard ? You're fucked.


    2K+G is pretty hard to use imo, it has to be +10 to not be interrupted, will not duck under anything is -15 on block, and has a whooping 57 frames of total exe and recovers standing. Which means if opponent escapes the right side he will be able to read a newspaper before punishing you with his best combo.
    All that risk for what ? a chance to gives 80/90 pts of damage once in a while.

    Using it for side exchange, really ? you will use this 21 frames move, that leaves you at - on hit with your back against the wall REALLY ? Good luck then :p

    If you use it only on tech roll you will take away two of its drawbacks that make it hard to use (slow and non ducking) since you have all the time in the world to set it up. You can also set the distance so that you hit with the tip, to give you more breathing room on NH.

    That is a move to be used to pester opponent, especially lazy TE users, use it outside of low punch range. Like I said, at advantage it will beat most common reactions like guard, low P, evades at the same time. It's not uber damage but it has a high % chance to hit.
     
  16. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    I also vote for 4 with Aoi strings.
    Her punishment seems like 2.

    Eileen may be a bit low at 2 for anti evade, we have El blaze at 5 are their options that much different ?

    @Mister: thanks, I will update the chart !

    About defense I think 4 is a bit high, since I feel roar not as powerful as character at 4.5. DS vane and Goh have a lot more tools. I feel 0.5 difference is not enough. I would say 3 is fair.

    I didn't realize wolf low game was that bad ! I would even put a 0 lol.
     
  17. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Sorry, i don't know what a BD is, i assumed it meant "big disadvantage". Enlighten me.

    Also d+k+g is the only OS move that tracks to vane's back and thus lands all the time.

    EDIT: this post was made before discovering that OS b+p tracks to vane's back in this version. I've since re-evaluated a couple of things - and the usefulness of OS lows is one of them. OS [1][P] is a decent poke as long as you don't abare after a NH.
     
  18. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    BD was for Back Dash.
     
  19. Seidon

    Seidon The God of Battle walks alongside me! Content Mgr El Blaze

    I can't speak for eileen's anti evade stuff but evading vs blaze can cause problems.
     
  20. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    OK, in that case d+k+g is still better, the animation makes some attacks whiff, particularly lows.
     

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