Community Tier Chart

If you seek for normal hit, which is the case in this scenario, 2K+G is not be better, it's almost the same damage, one is safe the other is -15.
The good thing with 1P is even if they begin to catch up on you and guard low your are still safe.
I dont recall seeing any kind of evasive properties on 2K+G honestly, but I'll check.

 

Back dash > d+k+g tends to beat rising low kick. But maybe db+p works too, in which case i'll be inclined to use it more.

 

im sorry but putting jacky's lows anywhere lower than a 4 is crazy. 1p is one of the major points of jacky's offense. It high crushes, It has slide shuffle options to beat out different attack and defensive reponses, its safe (-5) and easy sidewall hit setups.

Slide shuffle 2kk is also a strong low because of his various options from slide shuffle.

1k+g = fastest sweep in the game.

I dont see how jacky has such a low score for lows he has such strong low options =\

 

It's as fast as Brad's 2K+G.

The big difference is that Jacky goes under the Highs, while Brad is arguably harder to read.



But I agree that Jacky Lows are good.

 

Is brad's low 19 frames? if so then i rephrase to "one of" the fastest lows in the game

 

Speaking of Jacky, the "anti-yutori" category is still blank. I'm curious to see how k+g,k will be factored in.

Also this thread needs some lei fei and shun feedback.

Also how about an "anti-abare" category. Safe CH mid floater damage really. This category would make moves like goh/wolf/kage f+k or Sarah's df+p+k or OS vane's f,f+k shine - moves that otherwise would only be mentioned in the "good mids" department and thus get bunched over with the various sabakis, spacing, pokes and other types of mids.

 

Yes, 19 frames.


And I just noticed the link for the Community Tier Chart.
5 for Lows for Brad is far too much. Lion is far better than him in this domain, Shun too. Brad has good options, but it's not his game.
Low punish in other hand could be 4 at minimum. Libertine already argued why.
4 for RO is far too much. Personally it should be 2, I already posted why.

 

I don't think I agree with an 4, I'd almost like to call it a 2 but 3 would probably be more accurate. First off 6P+G is not a punish at all, Wolf only has one 9f throw so it will be escaped 100% of the time from -9 situations. For -14 screw lariat is nc on minor counter against Taka. 4K+G+G is also a pretty poor punish because it just forces a 3-way guess and doesn't work from the side, 4K+GK would be better, but even then 6PP does more damage and reaches further. BH again as a punish is poor, not only is it a throw again, but it's slow enough for your opponent to escape it on reaction so you're giving guaranteed damage away. The damage from 46P is very range dependant, sometimes it can do a respectable amount, sometimes it doesn't do shit. You also forgot the most important punisher; PK for -12, and also 33P+K for -17, which is a launcher and good for punishing sweeps.

I'd also like to mention about Wolf's 2P+K~4 low punch sabaki, after this succeedes you get a guaranteed 46P+K to their side.

EDIT:

I'll mention about this too that he has 4P+K, which is circular to his stomach, and if your opponent evades into it it's +15 on hit, so a free 4P combo. Think of it as Lau's 46P+K. Then he also has rolling back elbow, 6PP+K, which again covers his stomach, it can catch people who like to evade after or before Wolf's 6P nicely, although it's high.

 

My opinion on Lei Fei : (weight and throws are already covered I believe so I won't talk about them, I will talk only about the areas I feel a little confident to judge with more or less accuracy, but please correct me if I am wrong.)

Strings : 4/5 or 5/5
Probably one of the best character for strings due to stance transitioning. Most of his moves becomes blockstun or neutral on block if you get into stance.

Mids : 4/5
Lei Fei has very good mids. In stance and without stance. Not a lot of fast starters without stance (mostly 9K and 9K+G) but his stance mids are all awesome.

Lows : 5/5
Without stance, 66P+K is good since it is safe and adv. on CH, he also has a low sweep but kinda slow. BT 2K is also a very good tool : KD on NH and semi circ.
With stance, he has tons of very good lows that are semi circ or full circ, and KD on NH. Doku 2K is an awesome pressing tool (free stagger), and Suirakan K is awesome too (free stagger too!).

Standing punish : 2/5
His standing punish is not that good :
- i12 : P6P 22dmg and +4 adv. Doku stance pressing.
- i13 : K+GP 38dmg +4 adv. and Hai stance pressing.
- i14 : 43P+K, 66P not that damaging, but can setup nice wall hits.
- i15 : 6P+KPP against Taka for 50dmg and +4 adv.
- i16 : Finally you can deal some decent damage with 9K+G and 9K.
- i20 : 1P+K awsomeness.
So his standing punish is mostly in order to setup pressing until you're against -16. When there's so much -15 move in the game !

Low punish : 2,5/5
Not that good either, but most low are more unsafe than -15, so you have more chances to hit with 9K and 9K+G.

Anti yutori : 3/5
Not that awesome, but there's all kind of pressing you can do with him. His throw game is not that good either, so you'll probably prefer to press your opponent into making an error. Don't forget his very good lows.

Anti Evade : 5/5
Probably one of the best anti evade game in VF5FS. His tools to counter evade are very good and there are surprisingly a lot of them.

Defense : 3/5
A punch sabaki, some various sabaki out of stance, good stance transitioning and stance dance can make Lei Fei very difficult to attack if you're anticipated.

 

If Lei's standing punishing is 2/5 then who's 1/5?

 

I put Lei at 2/5 because K+GP is a very good tool for i13 move. Only some character can punish correctly at -13 and Lei Fei can.

But since he lacks a correct i14, i15 punisher, perhaps that makes him weaker than 2/5.
What do you folks think?

 

Well who is considered to have the worst punishment? In vanilla I always thought Sarah's punishmrnt was pretty poor. Outside of throws wolf's was quite crappy too. A lot has changes in fs though.

 

People would prolly say Kage, but even though he lacks launchers I still think he has good punishers that either knock down for oki or give good frames.

 

Well the most important factors of a good punisher are damage and ringout potential. In my opinion anyway.

 

Kage seems actually not bad at all for punishment tools. He seems actually stronger than Lei but I didn't look what he could do for -16/-17/-18 moves.

 

Kage is better. 4P,K is 43 dmg -13 punish for knd. 1P+K, 6~P,K does 47 and +4. Then there's 1P+K -> throw for a lot of damage,throws escapable of course but it's still a lot with even a neutral throw. This one is outright scary in -15, IMO.

Sarah has a solid 50 against -15 with 6P+K. She can launch at -16. -12 - 13 she has the added option of 3P,K into FL though it's not more damaging than P,K.

Lei just gets K+G,P for 42 dmg and +4. He's "stuck" in Hai with opponent being pushed out. Backdash into evade pretty much sorts everything out from there. He also gets a combo at -16.

Dunno really what Blaze has? P+K,P,P for for 52 and KND i14f and big launch at -17?
EDIT: theoretically 2_6P+K for -15 punisher into combo? Pull that off consistently and Blaze becomes one of the best punishers.

 

I gave my reasons for the score I offered for his lows, but I can try to reiterate them.

1P is a decent poking low, yes, but the fact that it's very weak and linear makes it, in my opinion, not an amazing move, just a 'decent one'.

Slide shuffle 2KK is very good, but as it can only be accessed via a slide shuffle, it's not as easily applied as something like Pai's/Shun's 2KK stuff, which again brings it down from an amazing move to a 'decent one'.

1K+G's main problem is that it's not a knockdown on normal hit. For me, the biggest use of a low sweep is that it can beat out a lot of common defensive techniques (standing-guard-throw-escape, evading-crouch-dash), but since a normal hit from this sweep leaves Jacky in the minus frames, and is -18 on guard, it pretty much requires a counter hit to be useful, which basically means catching someone trying abare, or hitting a lazy opponent who doesn't cancel their failed evades.

Most of the time, when I'm playing as Jacky, I really only use Low-Backfist towards ends of rounds (for the cheesy low finish) or as a low poke if my opponent is doing a lot of standing guards, and then I will make a lot of use of Slide Shuffle > 2KK, but usually only to pressure a rising opponent (trying to bait a whiffed rising kick with slide shuffle, and then applying the low/mid mix-up from Slide Shuffle).

He doesn't have any 'knockdown on normal hit' lows or anything of major power, which, to me, makes his low game seem weak. When we look at characters like Kage, Lion, Pai etc... Jacky just seems lacking to me.

 

You are entitled to your opinion but i don't agree with you. You are also the player that says that jacky doesnt need to use Iaigeri and that is also incorrect. I've explained many reasons why you are incorrect in your assumption but to each his own in that regard.

So because Jacky's move leaves him at - frames it isnt good? LOL It requires counter hit to be useful? Man are we playing the same character? and since when is a move being -18 on block a reason not to use it? Jacky has such strong mid moves that the opponent would never want to block low unless they expect one. For that very reason jacky's lows are good. Slide shuffle 2kk knocks down on normal hit fyi =\

He doesn't need a knockdown on normal hit move. He has an amazingly good striking offense that more than makes up for that "weakness"

So 1k+g doesnt knockdown on normal hit and is -4. Lets see

If the opponent 2p alot then jump kick
if they throw alot, Abare lancher
If they step to try and beat out jump kick, Sweep again.

It also cause extremely easy damage on sidewall hit. How is this move not amazing?

 

About Kage :
Don't forget about his JF Shoryuken move for i15 punishment. Doesn't work on Taka though.

About Lei :
You underestimate K+GP !
After K+GP on hit, there's actually answers for everything the opponent may do.
Exemple : After K+GP against backdash evade > Hai cancel into Doku 6P+K+G Throw/K mix up.

 

Hmm, in regards to 'Iaigeri', I guess it depends on how one defines 'need'. Personally, I can (and do) win many matches and can perform quite adequately without Iaigeri, which, to me, suggests that it isn't a necessary ability. Of course I would be stronger were I able to use it, and I've never argued that one shouldn't use it if they're able, only that, from my perspective, it's not worth trying to use it and fail with it, which is what happens with me.

In regards to 1K+G, my point is that, because it leaves you at minus frames on normal hit and requires a counter hit for knockdown, it's not as good as some of the abilities that other characters have, which is the criteria against which I make my judgements - how good the attacks are compared to other characters' similar attacks.

I obviously agree that Jacky's mid game is great, but, personally, I don't take that into consideration when judging his low game - to me, the two are separate, and is why I give him a high mid game but a small low game. Using the threat of mids to work-in lows is not (in my opinion) a strength of his low-game, but rather a mixture of the strength of the mid-game, and the skill of the player. Also, because he has such a strong mid-game, I think it's [somewhat] indicative that his low-game wouldn't be that strong, else he'd be bordering on OP (which some may argue is already the case, but I don't think the game-makers would intentionally break a character with such an amateur mistake as 'let's give this guy the best mids and lows in the game lolol'.).

See, again, to me, this is taking the discussion beyond the realm of 'how good the low-game is in and of itself', and more to 'how can a player make use of his lows to be a strong player'. Of course, any good player can take the tools of their character and make them useful, but this doesn't necessarily mean they're 'as useful' as the attacks that other characters have in a similar category.

Lastly I don't place much weight on the whole 'wall hit' thing. In my experience, there're only a small fraction of times where this will be practically applicable, since you need to have both characters in the correct places in order to gain from it. That's just my observation though, and would be willing to accept that maybe it should carry more weight, because I never really look for it in a match and I don't usually capitalise on wall damage as much as I should.

You might consider making your own write-up for Jacky, such that you can offer your thoughts and give grades that you think are appropriate, especially since a lot of people seem to play Jacky and might agree with you more than they do me.