Community Tier Chart

I don't really consider -10 a punishment as nothing is guaranteed. Even with Wolf with his -9 throw.
Punishment should always be about guaranteed damage.

 

Yeah a guaranteed attempt is different to guaranteed damage.

 

@Jide:I see your point but I don't agree.
-10 situations exists, some characters can take advantage of them better than others. Ignoring it is like saying Kage or Taka= Lei in this situation.
The section name is punish, not guaranteed damage for this reason.

Yep about -10

About OS vane 4.5, my point was she was just under Brad by a tiny bit so I put her at 4.5 at the time I gave her the mark, it may not be accurate anymore.
I didn't cross check her mark with others, may be we should examine that.

-10= About same as Akira and may be a tiny bit better than Lau

-13= PK for everyone

-14= launcher for everyone, we must compare the damage. judging from the numbers provided by Feck she probably she has less than Akira, don't know about Lau.

-15= Lau can get FC3P ? is it realistic or is -16 more pratical ?

-16= Akira gets 6KP, lau gets FC3P for big damage, Vane gets 66KP but I think the damage is not that much more than 6P+K

-17 Vane gets 9K for very big damage (90ish) and excellent carry. So does the other 2 I guess ?


So you are right she may be a tiny bit under those 2 actually cause she gets very big damage later. May be we can settle with :

5 Brad/Lau/Akira
4 OS Vane/Taka

 

Chibitox :
Taka is in no way a 4 for punishment.
If he is, all character that have good throws for 60 or above are.

Taka :
- i10 : Throws.
- i11 : Throws.
- i12 : Throws. PPP and disadvantage on hit, or 2P and advantage on hit. Yay. Well, you go for throws if you can't kill opponent.
- i13 : Throws. PPP and disadvantage on hit, or 2P and advantage on hit. Yay. Well, you go for throws if you can't kill opponent.
- i14 : 66PP.

If you compare for real punishing character, you'll see that their tool are way better. Because yes, P+K is nice for i15, 4P+KP is nice for i16 but you won't get garanteed damage until i14.
And most people play safe.
When you can punish with Taka, you'll mostly be in that -10 to -14 range where he has no real garanteed punishment.

And don't exagerate Taka's punishment when he has garanteed damage :
- i15 P+K mC biggest damage : 75dmg (lightweight characters, timing dependant combo with 1f delay). Mostly you get 70 against most character.
- i16 4P+KP mC biggest damage : 78dmg (only against Eileen, Aoi and El Blaze). You get 73dmg against all other character.

So you need to go up to i17 to be in the top5 in the game like you said. But that's mostly low punishment.

Btw, I don't understand why Wolf is a 4 for punishment. I agree with Marly, I'd put him in 3, and Taka in 3.5

 

This is mine for Jeff:

Weight: 4/5. He's a heavyweight but not Taka.

Throws 3/5. His throws are slightly above average, but some non-heavyweights have better throw games. Jeff's RO throws are very nice, but all in the same direction.

Strings 3/5. His canned strings are easy to duck, but he has a good number of delayable 2-hit strings that allow for shenanigans and limited anti-evade (EDC beats it though)

Mids 3/5. Good damage but a little slow. Some moves like 3PP have more recovery than they should.

Lows 0/5. Low game almost nonexistant beyond a 26f weak linear low and your standard 1K

Standing punish 3/5. Great at big disadvantages, not to great at small ones

Low punish 4/5 Good options from low throws to launchers

RO potential 3/5 Great RO from grabs but easy to TE them, Decent RO from launcher.

Anti-Yutori 3/5. Two decent throw directions, some decent moves that are + on block if they're not going to do anything

Anti-evade: 2/5 Full circular is super slow and not super damaging, half-circulars are decent, but EDC jacks Jeff up.

Range 3/5. Can fight at long range, but not great at it. Often the mediocre option is the best option. 443PP is your friend. 66P is a good move for getting in, and is mad delayable so you can kinda mix-up with it some, but really good players will catch on.

Defense 1/5. Has very few options to deal with frame traps. no sabakis, and poor evasive moves.

Wall game 5/5. The only area where Jeff excels- easy wall damage.

36/13= 2.8 roughly. Given Jeff's easily exploitable weaknesses, that seems high and he should be closer to a 2 or 2.5.

 

Maxou:

I may have overated 4P+KP punish, but for P+K I was pretty close. I went through your combo and added 5/10 pts for mC.

The various disadvantages you are talking about are quite scarce.
AGAIN what moves are -11 ? -12 ?
What's the point of stating -12 then???
Same for -14, although it exists it's very rare and it's mostly for low attacks and we are talking about STANDING punish.

I don't even know if there is a move in the game that is -12. It's like stating 3 times the same thing for things that don't even exist.

What really matters is -10/13/15/17 or 18 and whiff punish

For -10 he is the best

For -15 there are two types of chars those who have a launcher and those who don't. He is among those who have a launcher, Top 2 may be Brad and Akira (+Lau ?) then he is just behind with OS vane and Goh. So he is among the best doesn't he ?

17/18/whif he also is very good.

-13 he doesn't have a 45ish damage string, but who cares ? He has a throw that makes you shit in your pants so he will at least P+G you all day if he needs to for about the same damage. Or he can hcf you and you will still be happy to not have to deal with hcb + pressure.
-13 is what makes him not a 5 for me.

If people agree to put a 3 on wolf, he cannot be anything else than a 4, he is better in every aspects besides PK.

You realize it's just 0.5 more than what you had given him lol


EDIT: @ Marly, nothing is written in stone, if you make a small analysis and prove the numbers to be wrong we will change. I just don't want to be the one doing the analysis everytime
Lion and eileen having the same marks seems OK to me at firts glance, Jacky feels even worse than them for -10 and -15 situations so a 0.5 difference seems OK to me, but maybe I'm missing something. For whiff punish Eileen and Jacky are better than Lion imo.

 

-12 moves actually exist (Lei's 66K for exemple). And you forget about the numerous -15 moves that go -12 because of side hit situation.


Throws are not garanteed. Period. Or every good throw character can be considered a godlike punisher.
It's not the case.
Do you count burning hammer damage or his HCB counterpart for -16 with wolf lol ?

3,5 reflects the i15/i16/i17 situation which is good but not as good as i10-i14 punishment would be.
4 for me is for good punishment. PUNISHMENT. Garanteed damage. Not gamble for throw. I'd prefer to have a PK nearly 100% of the time.

 

Let's say throws were 12f like Vanilla or even 16f, they wouldn't play as much of a role in punishment as they do here, still Taka would have 5/5 or his throws, that's two different matters imo.

But Ok, by popular demand let's not take throws into account (Kage stop smiling at me like that )

Lets Keep 3.5 for Taka then.
Is 3 for Wolf OK for you guys ?
Anyone has any idea about Pai punish ?

 

For Wolf I belive 3 is an appropiate vote, it's nothing special but there's worse.

 

Well, if nobobdy are going to do Pai...

PAI

Weight: 2
She's a little heavier than Aoi.

Throws: 3
Slightly better than average, her most damaging throw is with 4.( 60 )
6 is OK and can lead to a 80 dmg combo with a wall.
She also has 3 low throws, including one with combo opportunity.

Strings: 3.5
She has 3KPP and 6P+KP both delayable, PP4P and 3PP string mix ups,
But on NH, they don't provide much advantage though.

Mix ups: 3.5
She can start her offense with the low 3P ( though slow ) and P strings,
she has BT mix ups and bokutai mix ups and can delay some her strings too ( 6P+KP, 46KK, 3KPP)
to confuse you.

Mids: 4.5
She has, like her father, a 3KPP string starting with a mid kick. 3P+K is a double hand 12-fr attack.
46K+G gives advantage on block ( though slow), as well as P+K. 9K is her signature move, the famous scissor kick. 4P and 66P for wall stagger opportunity, somersault 7K and shoulder ram 466P+K against Aoi's parry.
From bokutai, she has 2 good mids, with one leading to a guaranteed launcher if it hits.
Most of her good moves are mids.

Lows: 3
2KK is only good online...
3P is pretty decent.
2K+G is slow but not too unsafe (-14) and give frames on hit.
1K+G is her sweep but doesn't KD on NH, unlike her Bokutai K. Both unsafe on block, of course.

Standing punish: 3.5
She has a 11fr punch, but PK punish leaves her at -1 unless she enters bokutai after.
At -12, she has 3P+K or 64PP.
At -14, her standing K lead to a 50ish combo only ( otherwise I would give her 4 for standing punish)
After -17, she can punish with her juggle starter 3K+G.
Not bad.

Low punish : 3
Yip kick at -14, WS P+KP at -16, and 3K+G above -17. Nothing crazy. You can try low throw attempts too.

RO potential : 2.5
Kinda average with PPKK in juggles. If you happen to land her 23P+K CH launcher, Pai can bounce you twice and the combo can travel pretty far, but not always enough for an easy ring out.

Anti-yutori : 2
3P can be annoying with its following options, but not good enough to go through the opponent's guard.
She has a catch throw but need to enter a special stance. And a running K lol, but it's high.

Anti-evade: 3 or 3.5
Her 4K+G is fast but high, K+G is special high and gives good options but is slow.
The second kick of her 2KK is circular too. Her sweeep 1K+G doesn't KD on NH and is unsafe.
Bokutai K is here if your foe tries to evade everytime she's in bokutai.

Zoning / Range : 3
Her 3K has a good range, 66KP for wiff punishment, 66P to start a wall combo, 9K to close the distance safely.

Defense : 2.5
She has reversal but they works only on specific attacks, 24P can avoid high and low punch at disadvantage, and 1P is a launcher with an auto backdash motion built-in.

Wall games : 3
Wall combo possible after her 6 throw, and at angle, fish for 1K and 466P+K crumple combo.
After combos ending at wall with 3PP6P or ( PP4PK but requires some specific angles) Pai can bounce you with 6K+G. When she's back to wall, beware her 64P+G throw.

Total : 42.5

 

Thanks Kingo

Now let's review the standing punish category one last time:

5: Brad, Akira, Lau
4: OS Vane, El Blaze
3.5: Taka, Pai, Goh
3: Eileen, Lion, Sarah, Jean, Wolf
2.5: Jacky, Kage
2: Shun, Lei
1: Aoi, DS Vane


For Jeff we have a 1/5 and a 3/5
-10 to -11 Throw only
-13 PK
-14 to -17 4KP for 40ish (or can he use KPK on mC ?)
-17 and whiff = Knee for big damage.

It looks on par with Jacky options to me, I’ll go for 2.5.


If we don’t take throws into consideration may be Lei should rank up a bit ?
We can aslo try to simplify if we want to :

5: Brad, Akira, Lau
4: OS Vane, El Blaze
3: Taka, Pai, Goh ,Eileen, Lion, Sarah, Jean, Wolf,
2: Shun, Lei, Jacky, Kage, Jeff
1: Aoi, DS Vane

or

5: Brad, Akira, Lau
4: OS Vane, El Blaze, Taka, Pai, Goh
3: Eileen, Lion, Sarah, Jean, Wolf,
2: Shun, Lei, Jacky, Kage, Jeff
1: Aoi, DS Vane

 

At -16 you get 3PP for Jeff, which is about 56 damage and knockdown. (not on Taka)
A bit better than 40ish.

 

I think there is no need to rank Lei Fei up for punishment : his i14-i15 punishment is not that good.
He is stuck with K+GP most of the time and while it's a good thing against -13 moves, if you compare to other -15 punishment ...

Of course K+GP can totally be awesome (K+GP into Doku 6P+K+G K/Throw mix up setup for very nice damage - 100dmg or more - and it makes opponent abare after K+GP hit which is always a good thing).
Still, it is not garanteed damage, and I believe most of the character have better stuff to do for i14 - i15 standing punishment.

In order to "finish" Lei Fei's score, I'll write my opinion about them.
Still, keep in mind that I have no claim to be a lei fei expert (I don't even claim to be a good lei fei player lol), and I believe VFNumers or some other Lei Fei players would probably have more accurate things to say about Lei Fei !
If they could talk about him, it would be great !

RO Potential : 2/5
While Lei Fei has good wall combos, and good wall stuff overall, I didn't find his RO game to be that good.
Perhaps I am biaised since I am also a Taka player but my RO are often quite situational with him.

Zoning/Range : 2/5
His pushback moves are not that bad, but he lacks range. He has some move that are nice to counter backdash (6K+G, Hai P+K), but backdash into evade wrecks some of them.
To counter backdash against stance you often have to go into indirect means (change stance into other things for exemple).
His whiff punish though is not that bad with backdash into 1P+K.

Wall game : 3,5/5
He has good wall combos and good carry. Some of them very damaging. In some situations, he can be very dangerous (Lei and opponent parallel to wall, 6K will wall them and the wall combo can be up to 150+... I even saw a 100% out of that wall combo in a video).
Still although I think his wall combos are nice, I don't think his positioning is that great, stances and how opponent play against stances play a huge deal in how you will play with the wall, and you won't be able to choose to go to wall at your convenience.

 

@Maxou,
if we are still rating defense lei would have to rate very low. 2/5. To use lei to his potential you have to utilize his stances, but his stances all of his stances can be punished/disabled if the move leading into stance is blocked. I know he has sabakis but any sabaki can be countered by shoulders, or 2 handed/feet, or full circulars. VS hai stance (2pkg) 2p can eliminate most options.

I believe his zoning/range should be a 3. He has 1pkg for quick retreat which cancels to back turned allowing a vicious, long range, half circ sweep that downs on hit and works for oki. Also you can use stance dance to gain nice distance into doko--if causes whiff you throw out the solid kp, or 2k for stagger. His arrow punch is a legitimate punish from long range, giving good advantage into good mixup options. Most importantly his stances allow him to zone and destroy rising attacks. I know this is more of an oki issue, but being able to hang out inside rising attack range and then instantly spin out of range and come back with stagger is beastly. I.e. bait the rising, 1pkg->k into combo/throw mixup off of stagger. Or you can 1pkg, 8 pkg, cancel and dash in for throw. This works better than one might imagine.

Could u please post the wall combo vid of 150+ and 100% combo. I'd like to see them if you know where they are.

 

Social_ruin :
What moves are you talking about?
In training mode, I found that there's actually very few character options that can eliminate 100% of Lei Fei's options (exemple : Doku KP blocked vs 43P Aoi).
The answer is kinda simple : avoid those move against the involved characters or mix it up.

Against most of moves that go into hai stance, you can actually go into Doku to sabaki 2P. And most of the time, there's enough pushback to backdash 2P with a nehan transition.
So I disagree with you here.

Here's the video of the 100% combo :


The 150dmg and other combos are variation of that one (well it's more that the 100% combo is a variation of the 150dmg one). Note that there is a stagger in the video and I don't know if you can break it.
You can also get 150dmg combos out of 6K W! into 2KPP W! + combo.
There's 120+dmg combos from other starters too but I don't have video.

 

@Maxou,
Akira/goh shoulder, taka 2-handed launcher, pai 2-hand push punch, lei 2 foot jump kick (9k+G), etc. These moves are stance killers and in many cases are guaranteed.

2p can shut down lei's hai p->p+k which is a move that is massive advantage on block and thus one of his strongest tools. I think u missed part of my point. Of course lei can doku reversal when expecting a 2p, but even that is still a stance hindered weakness. If you are expecting 2p when not 'stuck' in stance you could backdash and launch if they do 2p or do nothing (no disadv) if they do not 2p. The stance is a definite defensive weakness.

So regardless of whether lei has stance-related escapes after entering stance at disadv it does not change the fact that the inability to guard or only guard later than normal is a HUGE hinderance over not being in a stance where you have the option to guard or punish with even stronger options than you have from the stance. Virtually any punish you perform from doku will not equal the punish you could have netted from 1p+k were u not in stance. I won't go through every scenario but if you extrapolate out the inability to G and the limited options from stance you can see where i say that his defense suffers against someone who knows how to properly attack lei fei.

I'd be willing to play you lei vs lei (i haven't used him yet on FS but maybe 10 times) and (assuming you have a stance based game) i could demonstrate how powerful 9k+g is at destroying his stance flow and netting decent damage in the process. I don't mean this as a grudge match or that i'd even win given my FS lei inexperience, but it would still become apparent what i mean. I would suggest goh vs lei and using the shoulder but shoulder punish vs stance is very fickle in online play--often leading to CH for lei when offline would be shoulder for goh.

Hope that clears up what i mean. If you really want to see it in full effect play Denkai and watch as his jacky full circular mids you too death as you try to stance fight.