Dark Knight

The first two movies(Batman and Batman Returns) were good and Batman Forever was okay. But Batman and Robin sucked donkey butt. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif

 

Gota keep in mind what this movie is too. Despite how incredible the writing and acting turned out, it's a comic book story turned into a movie made to be a huge, blockbuster, hit. I have not ever seen a movie of that scope, be executed in the way it was. And never have I been so impressed by a film of this type.

So in saying that, I will agree with KoD in saying it is NOT the best movie ever. Though that title is always subjective, of course. But on the flipside, comparing it to Samurai 7 or say, Citizen Kane, isn't even like apples and oranges, it's like tugboats and countries. It'd be like comparing a FPS to a fighter. I suppose you can grade the overall quality but they're ultimately, very different.

 

I'm just curious what the new batmobile is going to look like since this one is trash.
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Yes, they are supposedly covering for the crimes committed by dent earlier. Batman specifically says that they can't let anyone find out about what dent has done, and gordon says "but he killed 5 people" (whatever the number was). That's why batman says "I killed those people" plural in the script excerpt I posted above.
As for realism complaints, I'm not complaining about realism. Complaining about realism would be stuff like pointing out that you cant really re-engineer cellphones into sonar devices from a distance or that batman shouldn't be able to jump multiple stories without injury. Its a comic book movie with its own internally consistent "logic" about how physics works, I give it that. I'm complaining that the reasoning behind the climactic ending is paper-thin; even taking the explanation at face value, it doesn't make sense. It's sloppy filmmaking.
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Krsjin is kind of right in that it's hard to compare this movie to citizen kane; different genres, different purpose. Problem is that's what people are doing, and in doing so they are ignoring that there are serious problems with DK's basic filmmaking.

If I say that genericUEshooter2010 is the best video game ever, maybe someone else would like a fighting game more, maybe they wouldn't. However, if i'm going to argue for genericUEshooter2010, it at the very least better have consistent control inputs, because the point of a video game is for the player to make decisions that control some aspects of the game.

The point of a movie is to show (or even better yet, imply), not tell. DK does a good job of this with regard to violent action being off-screen, although this was probably as much a financial decision as an artistic one. It completely fails at this regarding plot, theme, and the characters' emotions; it shows, then tells you, then tells you again (when it lets you hear the dialogue at all, that is).

 

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I still disagree, and I will say again, I think the biggest issue is that by that point in the movie, Batman really, really wants the citizens of the city to hate him. The entire movie was him setting up Dent to "take his place", and since that plan failed, his primary goal is to ensure people keep looking for someone else to replace him.
You're trying to create ways alternate explanations could have worked, but the truth is the character's went with the explanation used in the film because they wanted to, not because it was necessarily the most logical resolution.
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You're getting dangerously closest to that idiotic yet popular opinion about storytelling that making a clear point somehow cheapens the experience. Given all the special effects work, just look at the batmobile, and the glider scene... I find it ludicrous to suggest that they couldn't have done some more violent action if they felt like it... it was entirely an artistic decision, and it worked incredibly well.

Go look at some of the more simple, fabulous movies ever made... things like Finding Nemo and Wall*E come to mind. There's really just one simple clear message in the entire film, yet noone knocks those moves for not being more confusing. Telling us you didn't like the dark knight because it was consistent seems pretty lame. That said, as I stated early, I will agree there were pacing issues, so maybe we don't really disagree that much.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">batman is incredibly worried that people will find out that dent browbeat a confession out of a suspect, but doesnt care if they find out that he murdered multiple people? Cmon, now, disagree all you want, but your interpretation of the end makes no sense at all; it clearly was not only about who was responsible for dent's death.</div></div></div>

Then you obviously didn't notice the movie's rating. PG13 == bigger box office. They were skirting (breaking, imho) the limit as it was.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">making a clear point somehow cheapens the experience.</div></div>

Wow, way to completely twist what I said. Was the end of Usual Suspects unclear to you? The only on-screen dialogue was along the lines of agent kujan saying "Did you see where he went?!?" and the other guy responding "who, the cripple? he went thataway". Everything else was visually implied; that's filmmaking.

"q: Why ? a: because . . . because . . . because . . . because . . ." is not filmmaking.

 

I feel every turn they took was t make the film as much like the comic as the could, specifically Frank Millers versions. They did just that.

I also believe the way they approached the violence was also artistic and intentionally aiming to resemble Millers work.

 

I think you're a little too harsh by stating that the ending of TDK is "not filmmaking." It's not very strong filmmaking and dumbed down in my opinion, but I thought it was serviceable. It doesn't bother me, but I agree that TDK is not a masterpiece. The ending being one of the weakpoints. But overall I think it's a great a film despite it's flaws. Some people are saying that the film is Oscar worthy, I say no. Heath Ledger's performance in my opinion is.

Best superhero film yet. They could've done it better, especially if the studios just gave the filmmakers complete control. Unfortunately, it is a franchise and they had consider the demographic in which it is catered to. The ending was probably was to appease the studios as well making it open-ended and have a set-up for a possible third movie.

 

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All they cared about was preserving dent's image, in both situations. It doesn't matter what Dent did or didn't do, it matters that the citizens see someone as a "white knight", and that the members of the mob that Dent prosecuted stay in prison, or else Gotham goes back to being crime-ridden like the previous film. Of course Batman cares that people find out Dent murdered people, that's the other reason why he tells Gordon to put all the blame on himself. It's killing two birds with one stone, in essence. But you need both... if people find out Dent was a murderer, then the fact that Batman killed him would just make people celebrate Batman as truly their only option for crime control.</div></div></div>

Oioron: I still think I preferred Iron Man, myself. But TDK was very good. I agree, though, I don't think I'd consider it Oscar material, either.

 

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So what do you suggest would have been a better ending for the movie?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;"> If Batman didn't take the fall then they would have had to frame somebody else and even if that somebody else would've been a criminal, even if that criminal was dead already, I still don't think that was something that would have went along with their characters. The end makes sense to me in that Harvey took the fall for Batman once and Batman felt obliged to take the fall for Harvey. I don't think Batman really cared what the people of Gotham thought about him, just the criminals. What better way to strike fear into their hearts than to make Batman out to be a total psychopath? </div></div></div>

Oh, btw, this is one of the best superhero movies of all time. Not the best comic book/vigilante movie though, that title belongs to V for Vendetta /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Could someone please explain the flashlights.

 

Waddup bro! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
What flashlights?

 

Frank miller's dark knight returns is infamous for using a lot of exposition; he's been parodied for it repeatedly. But at least his is usually confined to the characters' internal monologues. If Nolan had actually been trying to mimic miller, he would have used film-noir style voiceovers, not have his characters literally repeat out loud what just happened on screen. When it comes to actual dialogue, miller's a freaking literary genius by comparison with nolan. Even when he's doing outright q&a to make plot points, miller is way more subtle than nolan:

miller:
<gordon & lieutenant standing in dark amid scaffolding>
lt: gallagher's gonna be pissed.
g: gallagher doesnt run this department yet.
lt: isn't there another way to contact him?
g: at least a dozen.
lt: then why?
g: I want them to know. I want everyone to know. Hit it.
<cut to scene of carrie kelly, head slumped on windowsill; across several panels, yellow light slowly brightens the walls; she looks up and smiles>
<next page, batman & gordon are talking, batsignal in background>

If nolan had written that shit, it would have looked more like this:
<gordon and lt standing in front of darkened batsignal>
g: hit it
<batsignal lights up the night sky>
lt: you're gonna get in trouble with gallagher for turning on THE BATSIGNAL.
g: i'm still in charge here.
lt: so why'd you turn on THE BATSIGNAL?
g: I turned on THE BATSIGNAL because THE BATSIGNAL is a SYMBOL of BATMAN and i want everyone to know BATMAN IS BACK. i want the thugs to be afraid. I want the citizens to be inspired. I want the politicians to know they can't force superheroes into hiding anymore.

I'm not saying it was all that bad, but there are multiple times throughout DK where characters are saying nothing but an explicit re-iteration of what just happened.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">better ending for the movie?</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">Look at miller's justifications for why batman has the cops after him:
The commissioner already has it in for batman. batman snaps joker's neck in full view of unrelated witnesses, who flee before they can realize he's only paralyzed. Here, the surviving witnesses will corroborate that batman is a killer. Batman actually attacks a bunch of cops in order to escape, because he doesn't have time to explain and they're armored enough he knows they wont get killed.
vs nolan's
Dent kills & terrorizes, and leaves living witnesses. These people won't corroborate that batman is the actual killer; what's gordon gonna do, kill them to shut them up? Batman attacks a bunch of cops, who shortly realizes the reason he attacked them was to prevent them from killing innocent hostages. Gordon's just gonna convince the cops to forget that batman saved their bacon? Furthermore, when batman kills dent, gordon's family is there. How's he gonna explain to the cops outside how they all got to an abandoned warehouse? Batman kidnapped them all and two-face tried to rescue them? So gordon just says batman did it all, and they all believe the big lie?</div></div></div>

 

Hey Tony!

When Batman knocks out the power to Lau's (?) building, we see 6 or so well dressed gentlemen jump up from the table and turn on their maglites.

I've asked all the financial analysts I know & none of them habitually carry flashlights about.

 

Yeah exactly. It was all too convenient. And did you notice Maroni standing straight next to Dent's hospital room? The night before, didn't he get dropped from like 4 stories right onto his feet? It would definitely have broken at least a pinky toe.

 

They were in the mob... have you guys ever held a maglite... those things are so freakin' heavy. 100x better than a baseball bat if your goal is to knock someone out (plus they're not obviously out of place in polite company).

KoD: I still think the events as they played out where most appropriate for the movie. I haven't read the comic book, but it sounds like they didn't quite matchup, so the Nolan's changes were appropriate. That said, I would agree that the dialogue is telling us things we already know. It didn't bother me in the particular case of that closing monologue, but I do agree it could have been better. They're kind of seperate complaints, though... sounds like you'd be happy with improved dialogue, which doesn't necessitate actually changing the events in the ending?

 

Haha, I didn't even think about that. I just figured that most businesses have some kind of power outage supplies like flashlights XD

 

Just FYI. The stories in Batman Begins and Dark Knight were not based on a specific volume of comic book. Several comic books were used as source material for the characters. Namely, The Long Halloween, The Killing Joke, and The Dark Knight Returns were cited as some of the source materials.

 

I loved the Sons of the Batman reference. Would've loved to see a reference to Peppi, but maybe that's just me. Scarecrow vanishing is sad.

KoD:
I vouch for support of the way too much exposition stand point. Especially (but not only in) the ending, that was just badly written, if you'd have plunked that down on paper it would have been too much already, let alone in a movie where you can let images carry a part of the message.

sanjuroAKIRA:
I never thought they were businessmen at all as well, they wouldn't be carrying guns. I thought they were bodyguards. Mag-lights are common among security staff.

 

Its true, though, watching Batman makes your cock grow at least 2 inches in length.