Dead or Alive 5 Announced for 2012! PS3 and Xbox

I have played a little. Liking Bayman. Try not to use the VF folk.

Yesterday I went into simple Match set to same area. Got matched with a 2 bar Sarah player who lagged really badly. The match started and he kicked me twice. The game shouted greatest and I was kicked back to the main menu. Safe to say I was pretty miffed.

Seems pretty glitchy online.

The game itself is okay, yet to really play it properly but the online is so poor that I doubt I'll be able to

 

I like DOA5, I just hope they patch the netcode. The netcode in DOA5 is only slightly better than the suck fest that is KOF13 online, but is still unplayable. I'm personally glad that they made counters harder to do, because counters were too strong and easy in DOA4. Due to how overpowered counters were in DOA4, that game was a turtler's wet dream.

 

Regarding frames... yes, they matter. There is one thing VF vets aren't taking into consideration: Familiarity with attack animations.

Attack animations remain the same in all fighting games, spanning all their sequels. VF vets that have been playing for years have the character animations branded into their memory... to the point that it's almost in involuntary reaction, rather than a see-and-respond action.

Example, VF vet playing DoA: I had a -17 on block and tried to punish with my 15 frame launcher, but I got hit instead, WTF. The mathematics are correct, there is a two frame advantage... BUT people need to consider the delay in REACTION to the blocked attack. How many frames had passed from the time you blocked the attack, to recognizing the recovery properties, to executing your punisher?

Another aspect regarding frames in DoA, and what makes it different from other fighters, are the throws as punishers. A quick research on DoA combat mechanics reveals that strikes are not necessarily the best punisher. Throws are. And the game is designed to be that way. They are meant to be the guaranteed punish, hence they are unbreakable excluding neutral. Aside from jabs (which obviously are not punishers) launchers and directional attacks are slow. What some people may not realize in DoA is that throws have their own frame count, and they're the fastest attacks in the game. A neutral throw from any character is only 4-5 frames, half the speed of a jab. Directional throws are around 9-10 frames.

Is a player getting pounded when trying a punish strike after blocking? All it means is that a throw is the proper choice in that same situation.

The other major property throws have in this game, and it's specifically designed to be this way, is that throws are the MAIN punish for people that whiff a hold. IT IS NOT A STRIKE. And there are three reasons:

1. throws have the fastest frame count... by far
2. throws are guaranteed, strikes are not
3. and most importantly, throwing someone that whiffed a hold adds an enormous damage bonus to the throw. A lot of throws are granted a 50% damage increase on a whiffed hold.

I don't know you, but these are the most level headed comments I've seen regarding DoA5 in this entire thread.

There is absolutely no difference from DoA/SC/Tekken/SF players that try playing VF and say "wtf!!! How come I can't do X??!! Fuck VF, I'm going back to DoA/SC/Tekken/SF"

@Rory: Correct. And you have just mentioned the fundamental mechanic of every fighting game, of every sport game, and of evey competitive game in existance. I was not saying every player that puts you in stun is going for CB in every circumstance. The point I was trying to make is that goes for CB tend to lead in with the same safe pokes to set it up.

A mix up is obvious in that situation... but there is no mix up if the person on the receiving end doesn't start HOLDING THE CB ATTACK.

 

lol I actually completely misread what you wrote earlier.

apologies.

 

I can't punish -17 with 17 frame moves when I'm actively trying to in training. This has little to do with reactions and all to do with the buffer window for attacks, or frames being flat outlies.

 

The game doesn't go past the Aoi match up and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you know what you are getting yourself into.

Maybe the attacks need to be buffered like an elbow after a blocked Dick punch?

 

^It just doesn't work for no apparent reason.

Sarah just doesn't have the hitboxes to keep up with the DOA characters in the spacing game. If they patch out the back stepping method I found, they are instant bottom tier. Their side walks are laughable compared to the DOA characters as well which means they have poor ring control on top of that.

Gonna try Akira for a bit cause I'm pretty sure Sarah is bad. But I'm guessing I will have to play a DOA character.

 

I thought it was just me who felt that way about the VF characters walking speed. It's laughable when compared to the DOA characters. And you are right they can cover and control the ring simply by free walking.

I've already decided that the only way to compete in this game is to use a DOA character. The question is who? Kokoro was my favorite in DOA4 and while many will disagree I honestly think she sucks now.

After days of struggling to just keep up with the madness some characters can do it's clear to me that it's use a ninja or bust at this point. Tina is pretty good, but I just don't feel like using a grappler for this game. I'll probably try out Hitomi first before I give in to Hayabusa or Hayate.

 

Hitomi ain't no Jean Kujo. You can be sure I checked!

EDIT : I just realized something. Every move is 66P in DOA.

 

I finally gave pai a fair shot on her own and I feel it is better for me if I just use Eliot my main right now, Lei Fang, and Gen Fu. As much as I like Pai in DOA (I really do). Playing her DOA style ruins my style of Pai play in VF and will bring out bad habits that will get me killed if I played that same way in VF. She is still good and I will still use her but I will do so sparingly. Mainly for casual lobby matches for the most part.

I will never play any ninja character period I don't feel you need them to win if you put the time in with your character properly. Why do people feel they need to play a ninja to win seriously. The thought of that alone make me sick to my stomach.

 

The thought of all that ninja hate makes me wonder what is being accomplished by bashing the character choice of anyone. I don't think I or any other Ayane player ever thought that you can't play seriously if you don't use a ninja. If you got that from an actual person, I'd avoid that guy, posthaste.

 

That's because the number the game tell you is the initial frames. In order to punish a -17 attack you need a move the game says is 16 frames or faster. That is because you have to add one frame for the hit frame.

The only time the rule doesnt apply is guard breaks. For gb you have to ve two frames faster for some reason. If you have a +24 gb like Bass' 1p+k you are guaranteed an attack that is 22 frames or faster.

The frame disadvantage is also done at the end of the string delay window. Not when the character has returned to neutral.

 

something i was thinking... If you play DOA 4.. you know that you punish certain disadvantages by throwing.. Itagaka must've knew this because he never had a real TE function except on links.. although He may be considered a douche and a pervert. He made DOA what it was for its time and that was very playable without questioning it so much.. The work he did on ultimate and 4 with the online feature was great for its time.. i don't see how this game could regress online that bad. Secondly i think although you might have frame advantages that should allow you to punish correctly.... the major factor could be the ticks/Length of the frames... I learned from creating characters in mugen Frames has Ticks (common knowledge) Maybe this game does a bad job at keeping frame ticks correct.. IJS.

 

To punish a move that the game says is -17 on block with an attack, you actually have to use a move that the game shows has 15 frames of startup. In frame data for fighting games it's usually that startup is the startup frames + 1 to account for the first active frame where the actually hits. Technically DOA is correct in what it shows on the frame data counter in terms of startup but the +1 method makes things simpler to understand because that's when you actually hit the opponent. So basically every move the frame data counter shows you have to add +1 to startup so moves like jabs aren't 9-10 frames they are 10-11 frames.

Also, for reasons I don't understand yet you can't punish on the first frame that the disadvantage is showing. If a move is -17 and you try to punish with a move that actually has 17 frames of startup, it won't work. Because of all this, if you want to punish something with an attack you actually have to subtract 2 from what the frame data counter shows.

An example, block Hitomi's 66K, 2K and try to punish with Sarah's 2P+K,K. The game says Sarah's attack has 16 frames startup, so technically it's 17 frames. Hitomi is at -17 if you block the move....and it doesn't punish. But, I can punish it with moves that have 15 frames of startup, like Leifangs P+K apparently.

That same Hitomi string also presents a situation where I would like to punish with an attack instead of a throw. After 66K Hitomi has a low or high followup. If I duck and then punish with an attack, I beat both options. If I duck and try to throw, the high followup will hit me as she can continue after the high attack. Just because people are saying it's best to punish with throws in this game doesn't mean you shouldn't explore other options.

TL;DR : Something has gone wrong with the DOA frame counter and it's very confusing. I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to understand . The Space Cadet's post hasn't said a single thing I didn't figure out myself the day the game was released.

 

I'm not entirely certain, but I don't think the intention is for a person to use strikes as a punish, especially launchers and directional attacks. I've never looked at frames as an absolute, and perhaps that's one of my weaknesses, instead I use them as a generalization and guideline, even in VF where frames are exact and precise. If I block a low sweep, I'm not thinking "that's -17 on block... now I can do THIS because it's 16 frames!" I just do a rising kick because in the context of the game in that situation, it'll connect. I have no true idea what the frames were of the blocked attack, I don't even know the frames of Pai's rising kick. All I know is that if I block certain attacks, the rising kick will connect.

The impression I've gotten is that the "punish" after blocking an attack is to counter with a quick attack that puts someone in stun, then follow with another attack. The other option, which is the only guaranteed method, is to use a throw. It's almost a complete opposite to what a person would do in that same situation in VF. You'd do a guaranteed strike to punish, while throws tend to be escaped. In DoA, you do guaranteed throws as a punish, while strikes can vary.

 

Ain't nobody complaining about this bullshit with all due respect.. if the fucking game itself tells you that you have a 2 frame advantage then you have a 2 frame advantage and should be able to punish with options unless in small fine print somewhere off screen it says "you have a 2 frame advantage to input a hold or simply guard the next sequence. Anything else is not in our triangle cause we dare to be different by saying fuck logic...."..."

 

The PS3 has 1 frame more input lag than the X360 in general:



On another note, I also still can't understand the whole 2 frame business on block. But.. A theory is.. Well you have to account for the active frame, so basically you have to add an additional frame to the data shown in the game which only shows you the execution frames, and, holds are zero frames, so, maybe that accounts for the 2nd frame? You can buffer it, so.. Yeah. Just a thought.

 

No, that math is not correct. If character X has to wait 17 frames before he can move or block, then I can hit character X with an attack whose active frames take effect before 17 frames expires, provided that character X is in a state where my attack will land (i.e. I'm not trying to hit a crouching character with a high attack.) and my timing is perfect. If that attack won't land, then the character is not at -17. If the game says that the character is at -17, then the game is wrong and is not showing you something that is material to the situation.

And people here know what frames are. The count frames. They study frames. You may not pay attention to exactly how many frames disadvantage you are at after you block a given attack and know exactly how many frames your responses take, but they do.

Tricky is correct....

DOA can have it's own rules, but it can't redefine math or time. Math is universal. 17 frame attacks land against -17 frame opponents. That's just the law of math. The only things that explain his situation are

1. There is something in the buffer window that adds specified frames to all the attacks, such that when he thinks he is doing a 17 frame attack he is effectively doing an attack 18 frames or longer.
2. The characters are not really at -17.
3. The attacks are longer than the frame data say they are, regardless of an buffer window.

Even if you change the definition of the frame count, such that you can move on the 17th frame instead of after the 17th frame. That would only explain 1 frame of difference.

Wait a minute....

What it could be that the frame data is telling you that a minus 17 character can block on frame 17, while a 17 frame attack becomes active after 17 frames. If that was the case then every test would be off by 2 frames.