Discussion from "VF5R for console effort" thread

You're right, VF requires considerable more speed and dexterity than say UFC 2009, but in terms of the actual count of moves in the movelists of a fighter in VF compared to the actual count of moves in the movelists of a fighter in UFC 2009, you might be shocked to find that they are comparable.

So the move to stringent will be a little different than you might think.

you're kind-a balancing demands for game-play as stringent as ours(Virtua Fighter) with demnands for game-play with more and realism and more of the options that are available in real life MMA.

What will happen to the THQ's UFC MMA game and the EA Sports MMA games is that the sophistication will move in the direction of giving the player more options for realism, instead of only having 2 or 3 judo moves, the player will have 10 or 12. Instead of having only Muay Thai, they will add Shotokan karate, etc.

So while the next generation games won't be as stringent in terms of speed and dexterity as VF is, they will be stringent in the sense that they will require the player to understand more about the particular mix of maritial arts. For example if my ground game is based in Judo and my opponents ground game is based in Brazillian Jujitsu, what strategy do I use in the game. And the strategy you pick in the game would have to work in real life, because the simulations will have more and more realism as time goes on. So the stringency will be you'll have to know more about martial arts,and when to use what, and that knowledge will have to be based in reality.

I think the arcade fighters will never go away, but in time when gamers talk about fighting games, they will be referring to the new generation of fighting games. And will look at fighters like Tekken with the old ("remember when...") Once the new generation MMA fighters have:

kick boxing,
muay thai
judo
san shou karate
wrestling
boxing
shotokan karate
brazilian jujitsu
some form of kung fu
vale tudo

(And they're very close right now)[/size] then the variety will be there, obviously at 3 to 4 million units sold there is a fanbase and there is online competition, and these games are also tied right into the live sport. This is a very successful combination.

 

But let me ask you this. Why are fighting simulations so much more successful that arcade fighters these days? I think it's because the simulations are easier for people to understand. You see, while the mechanics of simulations are based on the mechanics of real fighting, the mechanics of arcade fighters are often based on arbitrary principles that only make sense in the context of video games. In other words, a fighting simulations can be learned by taking knowledge you have about real fighting and applying it, while figuring out the right way to play an arcade fighter can be totally counterintuitive if you expect it to be like real fighting. I think when you look at the majority of the people out there who would be interested in a game that simulates fighting, they usually do expect that.

So therefore, simulations draw people into fighting games who just plain don't understand arcade fighters. But you know, my feeling is, the more people play fighting simulations, the more they will run up against their shortcomings. The simulations may be accessible, but in terms of game design they're lacking. Sooner or later people will grow weary of the limited game-play dynamics these so called "simulations" have to offer. They'll begin to want more. They'll begin to want games that succeed as what they are, rather than trying to recreate something they're not. That's when we'll get 'em.

 

Depends, most beat em up simulation players are casual players and just play the game because of the name. Or they are realism fanatics but those play flight sims or submarine sims.

 

I hope UR right and we do eventually get-em, but
be careful in your analysis

The original arcade fighting games felt incredibly realistic at the time they were initially introduced. I know that sounds weird. But if you understand the history of the video game, then you know that the fighting game publishers were trying to make the experience as real and as fun as possible given the hardware at the time.

Here's what happened once, tekken, SF, MK, VF were produced and people learned the system, the next version of the game could not deviate to much from the previous version. The customer demanded that the gameplay stay basically the same. So even though hardware got exponentially better, the arcade publishers couldn't change the fundamental gameplay even if they wanted to. For fear of the hardcore base complaining that this is no longer tekken, or this aint mortal kombat, etc. So each new version of an arcade fighter might get better graphics and sound, maybe some customization here or there, but the fight mechanics had to stay the same to satisfy the fan base.

My point is, if we high definition and the current computer power was available back when the original virtua fighter, tekken, mortal kombat,etc were made, those fighting games would probably have been a lot more like UFC 2009 and FNR 4 are today. Even if Namco, and Sega, wanted to make their fighters more realistic they couldn't. The fanbase would revolt.

But if you are a new fighting game publisher, and you don't have to worry about satisfying some pre-existing fanbase, you are going to produce something alot closer to UFC or FNR4, or Fight 4 new your or ICON def jam than something like a VF or a Tekken.

Also, don't underestimate the sophistication of these new combat simulations, like any other fighting game, to win against high level players requires a great deal of skill.

 

Simulation fighters sale better purely for brand. Also, the boxart for some fighters do not often lead you to believe they are fighting games. I know I feel lucky that I actually stumbled into such a great scene by giving a "random" Soul Calibur II game I heard about a try.

Alao worth noting, simulation fighters will never have the same life span as arcade fighters. Because fans will always want the latest stats/rosters which require more releases than the average fighter.

I do agree that Capcom and such were aiming after real fighting, but in a sense that is fun. Given the same tools of today I think Namco/Capcom would still put little schoolgirls in their fighters despite them not having any real chance in the real world.

The biggest challenge for simulation fighters is balance. You often see the real world champ being just as godly in the game. Arcade fighters do good to make their poster characters good without being too good, let alone balancing every person to fit in a certain spot.

 

I play UFC every now and then, fun game, but not SF or VF. Call me old fashioned. Those numbers are impressive though and I would be careful when comparing the two genres. UFC in many ways is a sim game, it would be like comparing Burnout to Gran Turismo, you just can't. I believe UFC is the new Madden though.

 

We should also write in the document that about 300 users made an account here just so they could write for the petition.

 

Yeah, it's pretty unfair to compare UFC sales to VF5 when the UFC product is a phenomenon in its own right, with a built-in fan base of millions and its own television and PPV market. It goes without saying that fans are going to buy the game based on the brand alone.

 

Hey, is there any way to know how many pages would the document have right now?

 

Has anybody posted this on NeoGaf yet? We could use them.

I'd do it myself if I wasn't banned.

 

Yeah there's a thread on neogaf, not sure about where it is as I don't post on there but someone else linked to it the other day.

 

Hmm... the pace of new posts is really starting to slow down. We really need another strong push to meet our goal.

 

We should keep posting on the Tekken website so the thread is active. Ive just done that.. the more active the thread is, the more ppl will see.

 

Ok, how about this? What if we start a massive Xbox Live chain-letter by each of us sending a message to all friends with a link to the thread passing?

 

I'm wit Chu on the arcade fighters. I've been playin them since they were first introduced. Way way back in the 80's.

But look simulation fighters can have longevity too. There was something called 4D boxing on the P.C. long time ago. It was a simulation for its time. The boxing sims have longevity, B4 the fight night series was Knock out Kings. So don't think they're just a fad. The MMA series have been around 4 awhile 2. Pride FC, K1-Grand prix had several entries in that series. So don't think ufC 2009 is just a new
fad. Those games have had a following close to a decade now.


But here's the bigger issue. Share holders, assuming Sega has share holders, they want the most bang 4 their investment buck. Savvy game investors want the gaming companies to publish games that are making the most money. All shareholders would like the gaming companies to make the next
Modern Warfare 2 with millions and millions of copies sold. The shareholders don't get excited about a genre that is going to sell 750,000 units a year, when there are other gaming genres that sell 1 million copies or more in a week.

When you look at strickly from a sales point of view, we should be damn happy that we got VF5 at all Really!

 

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. What investors look at is return on investment. In other words, based on the total resources that were committed to the development of a game, how well did it perform compared to other games with a similar amount invested in them. In that respect, you could almost say 750,000 copies was a great success for an arcade port, because the amount invested in developing it was only a fraction of what it would take to develop a new console game from scratch. All I know is, no one ever called BlazBlue a failure, despite sales only reaching 460,000 copies so far.

 

Can everybody stop quoting figures from VGChartz? Pretty much every publisher and site I've worked with has said they are wildly inaccurate and should be taken with a bowl of salt. I feel almost guilty for having used them in years past. I know better now.

 

Find the Neogaf thread. Bump it, make them believe. I have seen post go pages in a few minutes. They could be what is needed for a tipping point.

 

VF5 did not sell 750k between both consoles.
You can believe me or not on the numbers but its lower than 300k combined and it sold more on PS3.