DoA4... OMG

Re: Interview

I thought having two versions of dodges in VF4--successful and unsuccessful--was a subtle innovation that had HUGE implications on gameplay.

I wonder what they'll do in VF5...I'm guessing more emphasis on customization and hopefully online play.

 

Re: Interview

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ice-9 said:

hopefully online play.

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On PS3? I doubt it. There is always the problem of lag. It simply would not be good except for in arcades. Believe me, I want VF5 online more than anyone, but I highly doubt it will happen.

 

Re: Interview

Jeff,

in your own words, it's a "subtle" innovation. It's a tuning of an existing idea. In VF's evolution, it was actually a tuning down IMO, getting rid of the more complex (yet to me, more effective and interesting) E Button system.

I guess by big changes, I mean ideas that are totally new, and while the dodge system is unique (and it does change the mechanic drasticly, like you said, by adding more risk to dodging at the wrong time), it's not really something that re-defined what was possible.

I watched the new DOA4 clip, looks like fun to me. I think the partition mechanic looks interesting, very DOA. Lisa has the Throw Rising Attack that I talked about in the Goh/Judo thread. Maybe I'm crazy, but could it be possible to Counter out of the new down animation? Probably not. Sadly, the new characters seem to fit exactly into the same kind of play all the existing charcaters have: everyone has strings, power hits etc. Seems like if you're gonna copy Akira's concept, why make it almost (seemingly) just like other characters, with 3 and 4 hit strings, her SPoD is just like Lei Fang's etc... Seems like Gen Fu is still DOA's Akira. But, looking forward to playing it.

Bryan

 

Re: Interview

I doubt your sincerity when you say you "want VF5 online more than anyone," given the speed with which you say it wont happen and its impossible.

you have to start somewhere, and even a little lag and online play is better than playing with yourself alone in your bedroom all the time

 

Re: Interview

i dunno screaming kids with a lisp on losing a match about how some random car hit them because of lag doesnt sound that appealing to me. I want my chocolate milk now!!

http://files.foundrymusic.com/WMV/xbox_kid_yells_at_mom.zip

 

Re: Interview

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PhoenixDth said:

i dunno screaming kids with a lisp on losing a match about how some random car hit them because of lag doesnt sound that appealing to me. I want my chocolate milk now!!

http://files.foundrymusic.com/WMV/xbox_kid_yells_at_mom.zip

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RS was the second game I played on Live and I remember all the kids sounded like that. Not so much with DOA, CvS2, or GGXX#Reload tho'.

If online play was possible are very very close to it, it would still be cool. Yeah you get shit talkers and whiners but with the headset you can mute them or turn the volume down which you can't do at the arcades. The whining is too fun as well. I remember when DOAU came out, I was playing as Lei Fang and whoopin' ass then these guys started bitching that I'm cheap because I was doing the same move "all the time" ( ) and that my character "was cheap because her blocking is too good" when I was kicking back blocking their predictable attacks.

I can only imaging what VF5 would be like assuming Fuzzy Guarding is in it and doable online. "OMG!!11!! let me grab you!!" /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I pray for a somewhat playable online version of VF5 /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

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To the minds of VF players, if you attack, and you've guessed wrong (the oppt Guarded or Dodged, or you Whiffed), we feel (and the designers of the game feel) that you've spent your turn, or "guessed" incorrectly; now it's the other guy's turn, because you made a mistake, and now you're at a Disadvantage. Are you fucked? No, you just have to guess right to protect yourself.

Risk and Reward. Attacking is a Risk, do it right, you get the Reward, do it wrong, and the other guy does. The ability to either protect yourself well at disadvantage or turn the tides into an offensive from disadvantage (what people call "Abare") is the language of advanced VF, as I see it. More damaging moves usually carry higher recovery times, with the best moves leaving the defender at an advantage such that substantial Attacks are guaranteed upon guard.

It sounds like DOA players would like to be able to attack safely & repeatedly, with a well defended offensive actually punishing the defender, who just guessed right? Wouldn't the example I gave above be made worse for the defender by the shortened Counter window, so that Delay is stronger now?

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You are right about the mindset of VF players. We, or at least I, feel that if you take the risk to attack and guess incorrectly that you should be at a disadvantage. Any attack that gives an advantage on guard should be so slow developing that you take risk on the front before the attack executes. However I think you underestimate just how broken the DOAU and DOA3 reversals are (I say this only for the versions released in the US). DOA reversals place the attacker at a disadvantage even if he guesses correctly. I'll give a simple example to illustrate my point.

Pai has a string that is
Kasumi also has a string that is

If I am playing as Pai on Evo and I say to you, "I am going to attack you with , try to reverse me." If I land the first punch, then I am going to land all three punches unless you use some other form of defense.

If I am playing as Kasumi on DOAU or DOA3(US) and I say the same thing to you, you can allow the first punch to land and still reverse me on the second blow. You can even allow the first two to land, and still reverse me on the third blow.

Although DOA has other flaws for the technically minded gamer, this is without a doubt the single biggest flaw in my opinion. There is no way I should successfully hit someone and be at a disadvantage because he sees what I hit him with. When you add the disgustingly long hit windows high damage of the reversals on top of that you end up with slower game than what you should have.

I may by wrong on exactly what frame statistic is responsible this, but I think it is the 0 frame execution. In VF reversals execute in 1 frame. I think that forces characters to come out of their stun before they can execute a reversal.
Whereas in DOA you can reverse while stunned if you guess right. Someone correct me on the frame statistic responsible for this effect if I am wrong.

Having said that, I can understand why Itagaki is not trying to add substantial depth to the game. Some people play for sport and some people play for fun. People who play VF play for sport. Many of us probably buy all 3-D fighters just to keep up with the genre. We will continue to buy our favorite fighter unless they screw it up and refuse to fix it. Success comes from courting bandwagon fans who play for fun and don't want to practice, not from courting die-hard fans who play for sport. It takes years of screwing die-hard fans to run them off. However bandwagon fans are fickle and don't buy fighters unless something draws them in. They have to be enticed by flash. If DOA began to perfect and balance its game it would add complexity that would discourage the bulk of it fans, people who like flash and fun and don't like to think when they play.

 

There is no such thing as a 0 frame execution, for logical reasons. Reversals in both VF and DOA execute in 1 frame; the difference you're looking for is simply that in VF, reversing while stunned/staggered does nothing (as it should).

Edit: I didn't take buffered commands into account when I said there are no 0 frame executions. I'm not sure about those, but it doesn't really matter: you can't buffer reversals.

 

Yeah, the difference between DoA and VF is that you never come out of hit stun during a string, while in DoA apparently you do come out of the hit stun while they're still doing the string.

 

Seems like from my fooling around, it depends. I tested only one string in DOAU, which was Tina's +,,. I think the final hit is always Guard-able (maybe if 2nd hits on Counter, no delay to the last 2 will string?). It seemed like on Counter, 1st and 2nd hits would put you into a stun you couldn't Hold out of, while you could Hold/Guard the . On Normal, you could Hold the 2nd hit. If I'm wrong, DOA heads please correct me, but I think I'm remembering this right.

Not that this string is great or anything, I just wanted to know if it was case-by-case, which I guess in DOAU it is.

[ QUOTE ]
VPai wrote:

In doa3.1, You can counter out of it wether its on normal/counter/hi counter hit.

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not sure if this now applies to ALL strings on Normal/Counter/Hi Counter, or just that Bayman string. I guess DOA makes an exception for Holds the way VF makes one for Throw Escapes: you can do it in recovery. I'm not sure if this applies to stuns created by being in Guard Stun (from having your attack guarded or guarding a "+ on Guard" attack). but it seems to apply to hit stun. In VF, even if you're at -20, AFAIK you can TE, right (even though a missed TE won't show as a whiffed Throw)? Seems that if a Throw is Escapeable in VF, you can always escape it with proper timing, regardless of your situation.

So in newer versions of DOA, you can always exercise a similar right with Holds while in Hit Stun (whether it's a short poke-style Hit Stun or the bigger, set-up types)? I could test this if no one answers.

Bryan

 

I actually don't think reversals in DOA are unbalanced at all...in DOA, every character has an attack that leads to a big combo, and throws that counter whiff reversals take a huge chunk of damage. The basic DOA engine generally balances risk with reward.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:

hmm, is it a case of always coming out of hit stun, or that you're able to cancel the hit stun with a hold?

If you always came out of hit stun, then normal combos wouldn't be possible. That is, after the first P hit, I should be able to simply guard the following PP if I'm not stunned.

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well either way I dont like that feature, you should be stunned when you're in hit stun.

 

Okay let me clear something up, so you guys can understand the stun system a little better in Dead or Alive.

In DoA there are basically two kinds of stuns: Hit stuns and Critical Stuns.

Criticals stuns are basically the ones that most fighting gamers complain about: They grant a huge amount of advantage for the attacker who lands them, allowing them to follow up with blow that will hit as if it was a CH (ie launch etc.). However they can be broken with a defensive hold as you noticed.

Actually "hit stuns" cannot be broken by a hold. Try these strings out.

Leon
pp
p6p
6pp
pk

Jann
pp
p6p

Zack
pp
pp

Hayabusa
1kk (i believe this works to)




(For guys with 3.1/3.2 you can also try Leon 4P+K,P)

You CANNOT counter hold the second hit, remember that DoA was basically a copy/build of VF2. The hit stuns are still in it they are just very few. Also all of these hits are for the most part not guaranteed on CH/HCH because they become critical stuns when done that way.

I will admit that critical stuns are a bit ghey that way but if you think of it, it's all balanced out. And technically the attacker has a huge advantage as you guys seem to want it to be.

(Note: There are actually alot of instances where a string that produces a critical hit still is guaranteed. This is a big part in telling the differences between intermediate and low level doa play as people who know how to play the game are abusing the strings for the most part, here are some examples:
Hayate 8pp
Leon 66pp
Hayabusa 3ppp [when done on a crouching opponent, otherwise only the last two parts are guaranteed]
Tina 7pp)

 

[ QUOTE ]
akiralove said:

Seems like from my fooling around, it depends. I tested only one string in DOAU, which was Tina's +,,. I think the final hit is always Guard-able (maybe if 2nd hits on Counter, no delay to the last 2 will string?). It seemed like on Counter, 1st and 2nd hits would put you into a stun you couldn't Hold out of, while you could Hold/Guard the . On Normal, you could Hold the 2nd hit. If I'm wrong, DOA heads please correct me, but I think I'm remembering this right.

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-It is case by case. There are attacks with small hit stuns, and there are attacks with huge hit stuns. If the attacker's attack recover before his opponent recover from the hit stun, The attacker will recieve frame advantage. The attacker will get a guaranteed attack if his opponent hit stun is 2 frames longer than the execution of his next attack.

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Not that this string is great or anything, I just wanted to know if it was case-by-case, which I guess in DOAU it is.

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-On normal hit, the in is a 2 in 1..in other words a true combo. The last like you said can be counterheld. On counter and High counter blow, all of the attacks in that string can be held.

- For hit stun, and Critical stuns, there is a limited buffer for holds. Meaning, you cant enter in the hold at the beggining of the stun. You will have to buffer the hold mid stun. The only time Holds are pretty much similar to a Buffered TE, is during limbo stuns. You can buffer in a backward Hold, and it will only become active if your opponent attacks or Throws.

-Also, what most people dont realise, A critical stunned opponent is infact in a disadvantage(frame wise). When Critically stunned, Your slow escape(recovery) and Hold become active only after the innitial stun phase. All critical stuns in the game have different durations, and the better players have figured out which stuns yeild the most advantage. For example, There is a Technique called water crush That uses fast recovering attacks that cause trip stuns on slippery surfaces. Due to the fact that most critical stuns that we done over slippery surfaces produce longer lasting initial stun phases, Players take advantage of this by Free stepping around their opponent to get a back turned advantage. Because of the longer innitial stun phase, The stunned opponent cannot slow escape. If they try to hold, Their hold will be delayed. What this does, It forces the stunned opponent to choose their punishment. Hold and get easily thrown, Or stay there and get hit with a counter revised Juggle. Another Example would be Christie's on counter hit. The first hit on critical stun produces a long enough innitial stun phase, so that the 2nd hit is guaranteed.

 

I'm really confused by DOA talk sometimes. Seems that the EXM and VPai are usually on the same page, but a few pages back I talked about how strings SEEMED abuseable in DOA, and I heard in reply:

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VPai said:

"Strings in doa is not an issues due to how unsafe they are."

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now EXM is saying, in agreement with what I think/my (limited) experience playing DOA:

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"There are actually alot of instances where a string that produces a critical hit still is guaranteed. This is a big part in telling the differences between intermediate and low level doa play as people who know how to play the game are abusing the strings for the most part"

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/versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Anyway, I'm also confused by this:

[ QUOTE ]

EXM wrote:

"You CANNOT counter hold the second hit, remember that DoA was basically a copy/build of VF2. The hit stuns are still in it they are just very few. Also all of these hits are for the most part not guaranteed on CH/HCH because they become critical stuns when done that way."

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This seems to be in agreement with:

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VPai:

"-On normal hit, the in is a 2 in 1..in other words a true combo. The last like you said can be counterheld. On counter and High counter blow, all of the attacks in that string can be held."

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K, I understand what you mean: Some strings, Counter and Hi Counter hit will lead to LESS hit stun, so that the defender can Hold out of the subsequent hits of the string; whereas on Normal hit some of the string may be a "true combo". Is that right?

If this is the case (and this rule is commonly applied to many strings), it's more or less the opposite of VF, where many strings will NOT combo on Normal, but will on Counter Hit.

I get this much, but sounds like EXM is saying that a simple on Counter will send someone into a Critical Stun? And from here the rest of the string isn't guaranteed? Seems like the 2nd of a string would always be guaranteed if the Stun was actually bigger, but are you saying it isn't because once in Critical, you can Hold out of the Stun?

This would mean that while some Critical Stuns have a VERY short window before you can Hold out (High Counter ), and some have a very long window (like the "Water Crush" or "Slip Stuns")? I get all this (I'm not really this dumb, just trying to understand, as I stated before, DOA's system at some very important points stands in complete opposition to VF's), just wanting to clarify. This is a VERY important point for any VF player wanting to try DOA, and I didn't even know it 'til now. The idea of a String being guaranteed on Normal and NOT on Counter or Hi Counter hit would seem really strange to a VF player. Most of us would say "Oh, that string is guaranteed, even on Normal" meaning that of course it's guaranteed on Counter. That's VF's way. This seems crucial to understanding DOA, and I should watch the little messages/stun animations more.

Hey, I actually know what "Limbo Stun" is, like Bayman's + in Open Stance (looks like what we call a "Stomach Kuzure Down" in VF, pushed to your Knees), or Ayane's ++ ? Are Limbo Stuns always dependant on stance, or do some attacks always Limbo Stun?

In VF, we call "Stuns" a time when you're at Disadvantage, from being Hit, Guarding certain Attacks etc. What you guys call "Critical Stuns" are more like "Staggers" in VF (Japanese: Yoroke). This is when the Shaking Stick appears and you want to do something like DOA's "Slow Recovery", shake the stick and push buttons. From what I saw in a Training Mode video someone made on DOAC, DOA's "Slow" Recovery is actually very quick, and seems faster than VF's with less effort.

Staggers are pretty complex in VF, but that's VF discussion, not DOA /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bryan

 

[ QUOTE ]
akiralove said:

K, I understand what you mean: Some strings, Counter and Hi Counter hit will lead to LESS hit stun, so that the defender can Hold out of the subsequent hits of the string; whereas on Normal hit some of the string may be a "true combo". Is that right?

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-Yes

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If this is the case (and this rule is commonly applied to many strings), it's more or less the opposite of VF, where many strings will NOT combo on Normal, but will on Counter Hit.

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-Not exactly. Vf has a progressive hit stun system with minor emphasis on staggers. Meaning more advantage is given depending on the type of hit..ie Normal < Light Counter < Medium Counter < Heavy Counter. Doa doesn't work this way. Doa Uses a progressive Critical stun (stagger) system, with minor ephasis on hit stun. With more advantage given to the type of hit that was used ie, normal < Counter < High counter.

In Doa, there are often times when both systems are combined. Like The tina example. There is neither progressive hit stun, nor progressive Critical stun in these situacions. The attack either Produces an advantage on hit/critical stun, or produces a disadvantage on hit/critical stun. So there are 3 different types of stun systems you need to be aware of: Critical, Hit, and the combination of the two. When it come to attacks being guaranteed, all of that is dependent on the amount of frame advantage you recieve on hit. ie, recovering from your attack faster than your opponent gets out of hit stun, and having enough frames so your attack is guaranteed.

[ QUOTE ]
I get this much, but sounds like EXM is saying that a simple on Counter will send someone into a Critical Stun? And from here the rest of the string isn't guaranteed?

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-No, lol. on counter will result in a hit stun, only on high counter hit will you get a critical stun. Even on counter hit the follow up to the will not be guaranteed due to the fact that on counter hit produces a small advantage, not enough to warrant a free attack.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like the 2nd of a string would always be guaranteed if the Stun was actually bigger, but are you saying it isn't because once in Critical, you can Hold out of the Stun?

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-No. Whether a 2nd attack in a string is guaranteed or not is dependent on the amount of frame advantage you will recieve. That doesnt change if its a critical hit , cause the 2nd hit in Christie's is guaranteed on critical stun.

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Are Limbo Stuns always dependant on stance, or do some attacks always Limbo Stun?

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-All limbo stuns are dependant on stance(as well as other stuns such as stomach Crumple).

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From what I saw in a Training Mode video someone made on DOAC, DOA's "Slow" Recovery is actually very quick, and seems faster than VF's with less effort.

Staggers are pretty complex in VF, but that's VF discussion, not DOA /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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-All I can say is, Its much harder to do than it looks.

 

So exactly how to you produce a critical hit, counter, and high counter?

How to get a counter hit seems obvious, but I think I need it explained in DOA terms so that I can differentiate it from a High Counter?

How is a critical hit different from a normal counter hit?

 

[ QUOTE ]
Mcoleman2 said:

So exactly how to you produce a critical hit, counter, and high counter?

How to get a counter hit seems obvious, but I think I need it explained in DOA terms so that I can differentiate it from a High Counter?

How is a critical hit different from a normal counter hit?

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Critical hit: Generally all blows that hit on CH/High CH result in a critical stun. There are plenty attacks on normal will still give you a crtical stun. (such as Jann Lee 4p or Hitomi 6P+K)

Counter hit: Doesn't need to be explained.

High Counter Hit: Happens when you are hit during a throw attempt or while you are backdashing. Basically high counter gives you a 150% dmg revision and generally a slightly higher lift when it comes to launchers. For throws and holds it's different.

Counter throw: happens when your throw animation reaches it's hit frames before your opponents throw animation... or you standing throw in order to beat his command throw.

Hi-counter throw: This happens when land a throw when your opponent is holding. If you use a set up throw (ie one that grants you BT advantage or frame advantage) on CH or high counter you'll get more frame adv.
Example: Hayabusa 6F+P
Norm: +7
CH/HCH: +17

Counter hold: This is when you land a hold within about 10-8 frames (your window is 22).

Hi Counter hold: Like the above but only when you land a hold within 5-1 frames.

I don't know if those frames are exact but that's a good estimation.


BTW: Vpai, I found some situations during water stuns where you can step around them and hit them to continue your combo. You even get BT advantage! Water crush is too good.

 

...

Who's up for a ten page discussion on the game mechanics of Karate Champ?