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Esoteric Frame Data

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by noodalls, Jun 11, 2012.

  1. Fulan

    Fulan Well-Known Member

    If you have the time could you test this: Gohs 46k sabakis mid and high kicks. what are the active sabaki frames on that move?
     
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    This thread has been renamed due to the emoticon in the subject breaking forum links, and also stickied for all the awesome info it contains.

    Thanks noodalls!
     
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    Ah, so this confirms the throw escape window is unchanged, being 10 frames either side of the throw active frame.
     
  4. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Ducking Pai standing [P]
    Pressing down
    P1
    [P] on F10

    P2
    [2] held from F22 --> hit
    [2] held from F21 --> ducked


    [2] pressed on F11-21 --> duck/DM
    [2] pressed on F22 --> hit
    [8] pressed on F21 --> hit
    [8] pressed on 11-F20 --> DM

    Releasing down
    P1
    [P] on F10

    P2
    [2] on F0-22 (release on F23)--> not hit
    [2] on F0-21 (release on F22) --> hit

    Compare with normal guarding
    P1 Pai [P] on F0
    P2 Pai [G] on F11 --> guarded
    P2 Pai [G] on F10 (release F11) --> hit
     
  5. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Goh [4][6][K] sabaki
    Goh's move completes on F20 ([6][K] input)

    Akira [3][K] input on F5-18 will be sabaki'd.

    (grey 14-1, between [3][K] and [G], where Akira also presses [G] on F20 as a marker. )
     
  6. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    VF is certainly funny in the way that it interprets commands.

    For example (all inputs for a single frame each, unless otherwise specified). / will designate the end of one frame.

    [P]/ gives standing punch
    [2][P]/ gives sidestep
    [2][P]/[P] gives side step, as does [2][P]/[P]/[P]/[P]/[P]/[P]/ etc.
    [P]/[2] gives ducking jab
    [P]/[K] gives [P]+[K]
    [K]/[P] gives [P]+[K]

    [3][P]/ gives [3][P]
    [3]//[3][P] gives [3][P]
    [3]/[P]/[3] gives [3][3][P]
    [3]//[P]/[3] gives [3][3][P]


    [6][P]/ gives [6][P]
    [6]//[6][P]/ gives [6][6][P]

    Only reason I went into depth in this is that I couldn't get a yoho to work with what I thought should be the command. If anyone is programming combos, it's worth being aware of. Not sure if it has an impact on buffering, probably not.
     
    akai likes this.
  7. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    Request: Can you find out what difference (if any!) there is between Evade > Standing Dash Cancel vs Evade > Crouching Dash Cancel.

    A possible test scenario to use would be to program the following with identical characters chosen:

    Player 1: [8] > [6][6] > [2][P]
    Player 2: [8] > [3][3] > [2][P]

    and see which Player's [2][P] hits first. It might also be worth swapping Player 1 and 2's inputs around, and/or testing with a few different characters to verify consistency.
     
  8. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf Content Manager Sarah Content Manager Aoi

    I also suggest to do it with bot evades [8] and [2]
     
  9. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Akira vs Akira

    [2] on F0
    [P] on F14 is earliest possible (nothing happens with [P] input on F13).
    Same applies to [8] on F0.

    Note however, this [P] is buffered, so it is not executing from F14. 2P Akira inputting [P] on F25 will double hit with 1P Akira F0 [2] F14[P].
    Same applies to [8] on F0.

    F0[8]/F1[3]//F3[3] gives no obvious evade, does give crouch dash. F4[P] will execute immediately (i.e. clash with 2P Akira F4[P].
    F0[8]/F2[3]//F4[3] gives obvious evade cancelled into crouch dash. F5[P] will be beaten by 2P F5[P]. 2P F12[P] will double hit with 1P F5[P].
    Same applies to F0[2].

    F0[2]/F2[6]//F4[6]/F5[2][P] gives evade into [2][P]. 2P [2][P] done on F12 will double hit (as per above note, 2P input is F12[2][P]/F13[2].
    Same for F0[2] and F0[8].
     
  10. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Putting the CD and dash techniques against each other as you suggested Myke yields a double hit. I.e. the two techniques appear equally advantageous.

    1P
    F0[2]//F2[6]//F4[6]/F5[2][P]/F6[2]

    2P
    F0[2]//F2[3]//F4[3]/F5[2][P]/F6[2]

    --> double hit
     
  11. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    Thanks noodalls!

    Can you clarify exactly what 2P is doing above? Are they just performing a [P]? If so, then it should be expected that an ECD with a buffered [P] is slower than a naked [P] performed at the exact same time.

    But having looked at the results, I think we can only conclude (at this stage) that there's no difference when an attack cancels either a standing dash or crouching dash.

    Can you revise the test case to determine the difference between:

    [8] > [6][6] > [5][G]
    [8] > [3][3] > [5][G]

    and see which is able to guard sooner? I would suggest have 1P perform the above technique vs. 2P peforming a delayed attack at various timings. Thanks again!
     
  12. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    1. P2 El Blaze does [K]+[G] on F0 --> P1 presses [G] on F17 --> blocked.

    2. P1 does F0[2]/. If P2 El Blaze does F8[K]+[G] it is not blockable during the evade normally (tested by holding guard, and also it gives +9 on hit instead of +6.
    If P2 ElB does F9[K]+[G] it is blockable normally (holding guard and also -6 on hit. Checking with PStick, this means pressing [G] on F26 for P1.

    The same applies to pressing 1PF0[8].

    Note, Blaze's [K]+[G] has at least 2 active frames (7 according to the guidebook). So with spacing, it is possible to evade a F8[K]+[G] and block, however this is revealed by the fact that the frame data is +4 on guard, not +5. All testing I've tried to do at point blank range to eliminate this problem.

    If P1 ElBlaze does F10[2] (F10 as I need to have 2P Blaze's [K]+[G] occur earlier) then he can block P2F4[K]+[G] upwards. Interestingly, this is -1 on guard (normally +5, i.e. you are blocking the final active frame.).

    2PF3[K]+[G] will hit a F10[2]//F12[3]//F14[3]/F15onward[G].


    Using [6][6]

    Elblaze 2PF7[K]+[G] can be blocked by 1PF10[2]//F12[6]//F14[6]/F15onwards[G]. A 2PF6[K]+[G] is not blockable.
     
  13. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Testing against low full circular

    2P ElBlze does F4[2][K]+[G]/F5[2]. This can be blocked by 1PF10[2]//F12[3]//F14[3]/F15onwards[2][G]. Gives +18 on block.
    2PF3 [2][K]+[G]/[2] cannot be blocked in time.

    2P ElBlaze does F1[2][K]+[G]/F2[2]. This can be blocked by 1PF10[2]//F12[6]//F14[6]/F15onwards[2][G]. +18.
    2PF0 [2][K]+[G]/F1[2] cannot be blocked in time.
     
  14. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Yes 2P is just throwing [P] out naked. The reason I looked into this is it explains how much time is spent in the ECD motion before an attack can come out, i.e. 12F.
     
  15. Cnul

    Cnul Well-Known Member

    Good job noodals but i have to admit most of the time it takes times to understand your notations [​IMG] .

    If i resume your results i understand this :

    / means next action

    // means the next action was input neutral aka [5] aka nothing

    You could also write this /[5]/ instead of //

    ------

    When you input something with player 2, you have to add the one frame of "lag". The game wait one frame to see your next input.
    Input [P] on F12 means [P] actually start on F13

    -----------

    Normal evade took exactly 24 frames after you go in neutral to finish. You start acting (block/attack) 25 frames after you go neutral or 26 frames after release [8] / [2] (F0)

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2P Akira inputting [P] on F25 will double hit with 1P Akira F0 [2] F14 [P].
    Same applies to [8] on F0.</div></div>

    means akira start the [P] on F26 (lag input from player 2)

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If P2 ElB does F9 [K][+][G] it is blockable normally (holding guard and also -6 on hit. Checking with PStick, this means pressing [G] on F26 for P1.</div></div>

    The example show that you can start blocking at F26 !


    Those data applies to attack and defense

    -----------

    Dash evade take 12 frames to finish after you go neutral. You start acting (attack) 13 frames after you go neutral (if you do the dash fast enough of course)

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F0[2]/F2[3]//F4[3] gives obvious evade cancelled into crouch dash. F5 [P] will be beaten by 2P F5 [P]. 2P F12 [P] will double hit with 1P F5 [P]. </div></div>

    That means [P] from player 1 actually start on F13 because of the lag from player 2 (he input on F12 but in reality it's on F13)

    -----

    You examples with the guard are strange.
    It's look like you cannot block thought you can already attack. You cannot block on F13. This is what i understand from your example. More stranger is it's look like [6][6] let you guard earlier that [3][3] in some cases

    [6][6] is good versus high circular and bad versus low circular
    [3][3] is good versus low circular and bad versus high circular

    That's it ?

    Can you rewrite your examples in adding the frame where P1 block those attacks. It will help people figure out those cases

    ----------------

    This confuse me a lot
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[3][P]/ gives [3][P]
    [3]//[3][P] gives [3][P]
    [3]/[P]/[3] gives [3][3][P]
    [3]//[P]/[3] gives [3][3][P] </div></div>

    With Eileen 99% of the time when i try to do [3][3][P] i endup doing [3][P] and that piss me a looooot.
    Your examples show that [3][3][P] is hard to get. Can you do more case because i really don't understand. I am suppose to always hit [P] before input the last [3] ? o_O
     
  16. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    Did you do any tests where you actually input [2][G] or [3][G] instead of neutral [G] at the end? Im saying this as I believe it is possible to duck the high circulars after evade crouch dash cancel instead of having to block them. I also think that at the same time you also block the low circulars.

    I believe the old "you instantly duck highs if you are pressing down" is now extended to crouch dash also. My proof:

    I set CPU to block and punish with P. I hit Jacky beat knuckle on block (-10) and buffer crouch dash = I will duck the punch. This wasn't the case in vanilla.

    Obviously my character cannot be crouching from the first frame of CD or fuzzy would be bonkers, so I believe the "instaducking highs" is the cause.

    Because of this, I believe evade CD cancel is superior to evade dash cancel.
     
  17. noodalls

    noodalls Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    El Blaze vs El Blaze

    2PF4 [K]+[G]/
    1P F10[8]/./F12[3]/./F14[3]/F27[G] will block the [K]+[G], giving -1 on guard. Any slower inputs (P1F26[G] etc. will not be hit, as ElBlaze will crouch dash under.)

    If you hold P1F27[2][G] then he will duck under the [K]+[G].

    ---

    2PF7 [K]+[G]
    1PF10[8]/./F12[6]/./F14[6]/F24[G] will block the [K]+[G]. +5 On block.

    Can't just hold [2][G] to duck after this.
     
  18. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf Content Manager Sarah Content Manager Aoi

    Is it possibile know how many frames are needed to cancel a successful evade into a offensive move? tnx
     
  19. G0d3L

    G0d3L Well-Known Member

    In the last 2 days I have been in the dojo doing a lot of cross tests to take apart the ECDG and the EFDG for an article on our italian blog and only after posting my results here on vfdc Cnul told me about your work Noodalls.
    Not having a programmable stick I'm happy to see that my findings are confirmed by your professional work [​IMG]

    Making it short:
    -ECDG -> you can standing guard from the 17th frame onward
    -EFDG -> you can standing guard from the 14th frame onward

    ECDG however is faster for guarding low, being able to do it from the 15th frame onward.


    About the [2] > [6] [6] > [2][P] and [2] > [3] [3] > [2][P], as arleady proven by Noodalls, I found that you can cancel a failed evade in the forward dash and crouch dash after a minimum of 10 frames and that you can cancel the forward dash and crouch dash with an attack after a minimum of 1 frame making the two options identical.
     
  20. Fulan

    Fulan Well-Known Member

    noodals, could you test how many frames opponents are vulnerable to low throws after techrolling from different knockdown positions? face down head toward, face down feet toward, etc, and also the spinning knockdown like Gohs 3pp.

    I'd like to know how tight the window is to catch people with low throws when they techroll. and also if they can attack out of this low throw or only have the option to tech.
     

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