EVADE advantage Master List

Because evading a P or 2P cannot be punished in the traditional sense. Same goes for 6P and 3K, especially those with canned follow-ups for reasons already stated.

Instead of "punish", perhaps you meant "respond" and with that I do agree. Learning to evade-check -- to be able to recognise the type of attack you evaded and respond accordingly -- is a valuable skill. Crunching numbers can bring awareness to the situation at hand in order to improve how you respond.

Intuitively, some people might think that it's always their turn to attack if the evade is successful, and while it may hold true for the majority of attacks in the game, there are situations where it isn't, and the Standing is one of those. So with that, let's take a closer look at the numbers:

Resulting Frames from Successfully Evading a from Disadvantage:

Code:

Disadv  Result
==============
  -1      +3
  -2      +2
  -3      +1
--------------
  -4       0
  -5      -1
--------------
  -6      -2
  -7      -3
  -8      -4
  -9      -5

Firstly, between -1 and -5 you theoretically shouldn't be evading as a defensive technique. Why? Because it's laden with a lot of risk for little reward when compared to the Fuzzy Guard (-1 to -3) or Crouch Dash Fuzzy Guard (-4 to -5) techniques.

So if you accept that you should only be evading at -6 or worse (when 'true' nitaku kicks in), then you can mentally discard half of the results to clear up your head space. However, you'll notice that your resulting frames from -6 or worse don't look good at all. You start at -2 frames disadvantage and it goes downhill from there.

Therefore, suggesting that you can "punish P with an evade" can be misleading, and this is where the evade-checking skill comes into play. If you're evading from a large disadvantage, and the attack you evaded has a short total frame duration, then chances are your successful evade was not rewarding, as evidenced above, so you should respond appropriately.

In some cases, your response after the successful evade should be a defensive one, and this is where double evades start to come into play because the moment you've recovered from the first evade you're already disadvantaged. Double evades (or triple for the brave) are effective when you recognise that the attack you initially evaded (such as ) has a canned follow-up and your opponent is willing to use it.

Example: Jacky's Smash Upper
Now let me share a practical situation you might apply this knowledge in to help you problem solve for yourself. Say you're facing a Jacky player who's getting a lot of success out of Smash Upper () which has huge reward if CH (approx half life combo) for little risk (-6f disadvantage). Let's say that one of Jacky's favourite ways to initiate the Smash Upper is from a CH which starts him out with +7 advantage. One thing you can do is Guard and gain some good advantage, but what happens if you successfully evade? Let's check:

• Smash Upper total frames: 43
• Frames for successful evade: 23
• Your disadvantage: -7

Result = 43 - 23 - 7 = +13​

Having +13 frames advantage at Jacky's side is a great situation to be in, and for many characters this represents some good, guaranteed punishment.

In conclusion, being aware of the resulting frames is key to understanding your options from a successful evade. So while I previously said it's better to know the formula so you can solve your own, specific problems (like the Jacky Smash Upper example I shared), having awareness of the universal cases like P, 2P, etc, is still a good thing.

Spoiler: Bonus Round

For some characters, their is actually shorter in total duration (i.e. recovers quicker) than their standing . This has the potential for some characters to gain even more advantage should the opponent successfully evade. All the details can be found in the VF5FS PKG Cancel Rankings thread posted by @akai in 2012, and be sure to read my lengthy explanation and breakdown in the first reply if all of this is a bit over your head.

 

I was speaking about the case of evading a standing , for which there is no reward, and in fact is actually the reverse. So evading a standing from -6 leaves you at -2, which is the exact same situation had you guarded it instead. But I digress.

I still maintain that evading during small advantages is inherently high risk (which you can reduce with dash cancels, but that's another conversation) with little reward. To elaborate, you just guarded a standing , leaving you at -2 and you decide to evade. What happens next?

Here are all the things that can go wrong:

• You eat a full circular CH, end up side-turned (maybe), and have a guaranteed attack on your side to deal with (maybe); or
• You eat a half circular CH, potentially a combo starting move, and lose a good chunk of life; or
• You eat a throw (66% chance) for which you can lose a good chunk of life / the round / the match (depending).

Here are the things that can go right:

• You get a guaranteed -string natural combo from the side, provided you have a with 11f exe.

Simply put, you're comparing a potential PK (29 pts) or PP4P (36 pts) damage against a Throw (50 ~ 70+ pts), Half Circular Combo starter (60 - 80+ pts) or worse, if unsuccessful. To me, that's high risk for little reward.

Alternatively, if you simply Fuzzy Guard at -2, then you guard all mids, potentially make high circulars / half-circulars whiff, and make all throws whiff. To me, that's low risk for high reward -- the reward coming from punishment of a whiffed high or throw, or potentially an unsafe mid.

Additionally, for the case, most (if not all) the cast have canned follow-ups which, when used well, should make you hesitate with an immediate follow-up and so this effectively diminishes your reward even further. As I said previously, your mileage with this may vary, but hey, if your opponent let's you get away with it then by all means. Of course, as the attacks lengthen in duration then so does the potential for reward, and that's the case I tried to highlight in the Jacky Smash Upper example.

Thanks for bringing to light some of the universal situations that many people will encounter. Now, we can argue semantics if you wish with what's considered high/low risk, or what the recommended "textbook" defensive options might be at varying disadvantages, but that won't get us anywhere. At the end of the day, the information is out there and how people decide to use it to improve their game is ultimately up to them.

 

Not everyone has a 14f mid (shun, DS Vanessa) and not everyone's 14f mid is an elbow.

Most of the cast do having a 14 mid of some kind though. And these are usually -4 or -5 on block, about neutral on normal hit and +5 or better on CH.

Shun has a 14 elbow that's a special low (can be blocked standing) that has Frames not really like general 14f attacks and a 15f elbow that's close to the general one except it's -3 on normal hit.

DS Vanessa has while standing P, crush jaw, a 13f mid punch that'll stagger on CH and is +1 on normal hit. If buffered properly it takes 14f to do from standing.

Sometimes these 14f attacks are referred to as elbow class attacks and colloquially as "elbows", which leads to a lot of confusion

 

Block? There is no formula for moves on block. You're +6 and that's it. The reason the equation is there is because there is no contact (block or hit) on evade and the successful evade takes a set amount of time.

 

The answer to the question:

"How do I keep advantage when I'm at +6?"​

is simply:

"VF"​

Spoiler: P.S.

You're welcome