Frustrate your opponent

Great Vid. A lot of good things summarized and accordingly demonstrated. Surely useful for both intermediate and advanced players.

I definitely have to work on different aspects there by myself; "don´t be lazy about defense techniques"...i should remeber that one...

 

Nice, video! Great that there are still people contributing to the education of VFers, to making visible what is, in game, happening in an almost invisible way.

 

Fair enough Manjimaru. I think that's what I was trying to get at in the dislcaimer I wrote at the bottom of my first post:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Above all, remember that frustrating your opponent isn't always about doing the move that provides you with the best frame advantage - it's about throwing them off their game, putting them on tilt, and acting in a manner that they are unable to predict. Sometimes this means making genuinely bad plays, or taking risks at the times that your opponent is least likely to expect it. This doesn't mean playing stupidly (don't try and throw out a move with 30 frames of execution time in the middle of your opponent's canned combo).

Understanding the difference between bad play and unpredictable play can be difficult to reach, and requires a solid grasp of the basics. When playing, continually ask yourself "Now what does my opponent think I'm going to do next?", and play accordingly.</div></div>

You are correct that there are more useful things to abuse than punch, and also that "getting in control" is the first thing you should establish. But by that token, all of the fundamental principles of the game should be applied before you try to do something like try to frustrate your opponent.

Have you ever noticed that strong players typically have difficulty with weaker players when they first play them? Many of the matches I've watched between in an unbalanced match-up like this usually having the more advanced player getting caught by moves that they shouldn't be (2P repeatedly is an excellent example, but there are many others). Usually by the second round the better player has figured out what is going on, and able to adapt their game and control the new players.

The reason this happens is because the better player is giving the other player too much credit. He is assuming that the poor player will not be doing something as foolish as 2P repeatedly, and plays accordingly. It takes him a while to figure out that, yes, this player really is completing that awful PPPK string, and the break point that usually exists in the combo is simply one strike later.

Here is my angle - when we are aiming to frustrate our opponents, we are aiming to replicate that feeling that the better player has during that first round. We want to continually have them in a position where they are having to think "why isn't that working?" and adapt their tactics. You are 100% correct - doing something like 2P repeatedly over and over will get you crushed. But doing it in one instance, in one round, is just one more small piece in the greater game of frustration that we have available.

So, while I agree with you that doing anything repeatedly will get you killed, and that the most important aspect here (and realistically, probably in every fighting game) is controlling the match (which includes controlling the rhythm of the match, the spacing in the stage, the ebb and flow of your offensive strings, and everything else), I think that the suggestions I have made still have merit.

Appreciate your feedback - you obviously think deeply about the game and I love hearing from other players that share an appreciation for the technicalities of VF5.

 

so I should spam, but not the same thing every time?

edit: seriusly now, this thread is misterious. frustrate your opponent - then we see a vid of a mad stepping lau owning random people online, maybe they are all noobs who stand there waiting for the death blow like I do ( I call this the cat crossing the road phenomena). maybe if we knew who that lau was and who those other guys were then it would make all sense....

 

You can use these techniques against all players. If you are looking for matches against high level players, you will be disappointed watching this video. There are many examples of high level play where these techniques are used, just not as obviously as I tried to point out. The video is meant to show the examples as clearly as possible.

The last match against a good Jacky is meant to show most of the techniques in summary. For example, I step but mostly after knocking the opponent down. I only use sabaki after confirming the opponents reaction. If you see the end of round 1 at 6:40, I 2p which is guarded and take a step back. The opponent will p in response. In round 3 at 7:16, I do 2p which is guarded and I will sabaki in response, which works.

In the last round the Jacky is quite smart because throughout the match I've been poking and use a lot of 2p. The Jacky player guards my 6pk leaving Lau at -6. The Jacky probably thought I was expecting him to throw and I would abare or p to force a clash, so the Jacky player attacked with 33k looking for counter damage. I sidestepped and seeing that 33k whiffed I attacked with 6+kg to win.

To add to my notes in the video, if you can't confirm an opponents reaction, don't randomly use any attack or technique. The video is a show of pieces in VF5 that a player can put together in order to beat or frustrate his opponent.

If you can step against an opponent, use it to create or reduce space.
If you can sabaki an opponent, you guessed his reaction correctly.
If you can bait an opponent to whiff an attack, take the best damage you can get.
Use your defense to make the match last longer and hopefully go in your favor.
Use stance to take maximum damage.
Have one or a few difficult to guess setups where your opponent is put in a situation to make a forced guess.

It is exhausting to play against someone who can use all of the above against all VF5 characters, because this kind of players losses are mainly because of poor guessing (Yomi) instead of knowledge, input or reaction. Against the very strong players in VF you also cannot get any kind of consistent offensive reaction from them.

With the exception of the p sabaki, you don't need to be Lau to use the above. You can be any character in the game. Hope that clarifies the video a bit more.

 

Thanks for those video and general-purpose tips Az,
I'm trying to do as much as u described on Lau and hopefully I can be used to him.
Btw, do u have any idea how much difference on Lau between 5 and R?
Sorry I didn't pay attention before watching the R matches.....

 

Matteo please see

Also compare to

If you can hit your opponent first, do so. If you can't, don't.

 

I don't think you should spam anything ever, only repeat what opponent has shown to be vulnerable to. If he eats some certain move/setup, keep doing it until they show they can deal with it. The moment they do the right response, stop doing it and change tactic. But thats not really 'spamming' in my books.

In my opinion, best way to frustrate non-noob opponent is to completely shut down what THEY are trying to do. This sometimes leads to "It didn't work, I must try it again until it works" -syndrome. Certain people do that, for instance if they fail a combo, they try it again immediately just to see they can still do it.

For Jacky, you could repeatedly throw out his f+P with variable timing. At some point they may get fed up colliding with Jackys fist over and over.. But the frustration comes from them being interrupted with what they are trying to do rather than eating the elbow(misnomer: gut punch). This tactic is also pointless unless you can also defend yourself enough.

 

I'm not sure this really applies to the video as only the spacing from stepping and baiting attacks to whiff require keeping a distance. Also keepaway Lau isn't accurate as you can play in a similar manner with all of the cast in VF5.

Sabaki, defensive techniques, applying stance when possible and arranging offensive setups generally require a close distance to the opponent. Consider that what might be obvious to you, might not be to others.

 

I believe that advice cannot (and should not) be generalised that easily in VF and without afterthought.

Backdash > sweep is a staple flowchart for lau but there is a reason you don't see (i'll use the character i'm most familiar with as an example) vanessa doing that. Her sweep has less range and doesn't knockdown. Said lack of range is probably the reason vanessa players rely on her infamous midkick after fancy stepping or plain backwalking. On the other hand the flowchart is probably worth copying for (another character i play) Lion since his sweep also knocks down on any hit. I'm guessing that for Brad (a character i'm just vaguely familiar with) it's not worth it that much since his sweep doesn't duck and only knocks down on CH.

Same goes for sabaki advice, this time applicable to vanessa, lion to a lesser extent and not at all for brad. Once again i'm refraining from commenting on characters i'm not familiar with.

Finally advice about stance-checking floats is by definition character specific.

Now, concretely speaking, I see a video concerning a single character. It is a good video, it's just, you know, a video about Lau.

"Frustrating your opponent" is, afaic, definetly too broad a title for this vid. I fear that even "frustrating your opponent with Lau" might be too broad. Too optimistic if you will - you cover just a tiny fraction of lau gameplay that can potentially be frustrating. Kokei shenaningans springs to mind, along with using his +frames moves and delaying unsafe attacks (qv. deathsushi's post).

I remember konjou came up with some similar vids about Kage. He was more "humble" about labeling his contribution. Unfortunately i fear that his looking at the task at hand the "realistic" way daunted him and he must have given up when he realized the wealth of possibilities to be explored on video.

To sum it up, I applaud you effort and praise you for it; however i'm trying to add a "disclaimer", warning those less versed in VF than you are that, as they say in commercials, "results may vary" depending on your character

 

Thanks for your detailed reply, but I do share a different opinion on the advice shown on video. Most of the information is general tactics and can be applied to nearly the entire cast. I do agree with your paragraph about back dash sweep with Lau vs back dash sweep with Vanessa. It's because of the complications with moves and flowcharts that I never discussed the subject of character specific stances and moves. Lau's Kokei as you mentioned in your post is a specific move that not all characters have. I did touch on some mid distance moves that can be replaced with Lau's 33p and 9k that I use to attack whiffed moves. I felt enough of the VF cast had something similar that I included it in the video.

In my first post it says,

Use movement to back up or stand still and wait for the attack. Many opponents will continue to advance to place pressure on the opponent. Keeping space and patiently waiting may cause your opponent to whiff attacks. You can also keep a mid distance space to purposely seek to interrupt your opponents forward dash attack. In a mid distance Lau should use 33p or 9k, Shun can use 3p or 2_4p, Akira can 3pk, 2_46p etc.

In the actual video and from the first post I attempted to be as general as possible. In the video text I said "If you can see stance use the correct combo for maximum damage". The example is with Lau but can be applied to any character. More often than not, if you can learn to see stance with one character it will carry over to another. With Jacky, for example, I would have shown examples using 4kg and 33k with maximum damage stance combos. Even about Sabaki, I said "If your character has a Sabaki/Reversal" because not everyone in the VF cast has a Sabaki/Reversal, but enough do that I included an example in the video.

The advice is more or less time tested general advice using VF5's more open ended movement. I really could duplicate the video with much of the VF cast and it was a consideration of mine when I made the video of what to show.

The video is to illustrate a situation and get people thinking about how they can recreate the situations with other characters. I used Lau for illustration only.

If you think that the title is too specific, you're correct. I can agree with you that there are loads of possibilities to explore to frustrate your opponent. I didn't say that the video is a complete set of available options and I apologize if anyone read into it that way based on the title. Some of these situations, like strong stepping and baiting, might frustrate someone and it might not to someone else.

I do agree with you that results will vary by character, but advice is just advice. It's not written in stone that anyone needs to play this way to win. General advice is worthwhile learning so long as it lets you start thinking about improving and doesn't take away from your game.

 

Well said Azusabo, everything is clearer for me now, thank you

 

Maybe the "sabaki" part is character limited, but I think rest of the describition is pretty general-purpose ideas.
For me, the best way to frustrate your opponent is to join the session with gray pins and then pulling...

Perhaps the title is a little bit specific for some broswers, but it's still helpful~ Thanks for all the comments.

 

Azusabo, thanks for the reply, and thanks for being so patient.
It might seem that we do not appreciate your vid, but it's not that I dont LIKE your vid, especially because its clear that your are very good and I envy those mad stepping skills,

What probably confuses me is that in a few istances in the vid I clearly see that you are the better player. The sarah was spamming ramdom stuff, the Jeff eat P Throw 5 times in a row. dont get me wrong, I spam P throw myself. My feeling is that you are good because of your spacing ect... not sure if that is frustrating oppoents or just plain being good at the game. But being hard to hit is definately frustrating.

 

Matteo, that's no problem to explain as long as there's some benefit to you. If I had tried to take the examples from matches against stronger players, the examples would not have come out as clearly as they are shown in the video. When making the instructional video, making it clear is the first and main goal. What you took from the video was the clear stepping example, so I hope that you might learn it.

About the Jeff eating P throw 5 times in a row. This isn't accurate as that's the example of the 50/50 setup and is not like a normal standing P throw. After Lau's 42pg the opponent is sideturned and Lau's p,4p,p will completely hit the opponent sideturned. After the first P hits, the opponent must guess if they should attack or not as they can't guard, duck or sidestep the follow up 4p, p as long as the p from 42pg connects. If my opponent attacked and I complete the combo I get sideturned counter hit damage. If the opponent taps guard he will go back to normal standing guard and I can try to throw again. So this is a 50/50 setup and because the Jeff player guessed incorrectly a few times, it seemed that I used P throw in a row.

 

good stuff!, now i hate your lau on paper! damn you!