Help with Shun

Training tidbit of advice

in case you guys are having problems with the training for Shun.. I stumbled across this little piece of advice.. which is probably well known.. but I think someone out there might find it handy..

some of the training exercises that involve doing a throw to end the move may become impossible to complete if you keep using Shun's standard + throw.. he gets too drunk and his attacks become more powerful (or change altogether) and mess up the combo or series or whatever it was you were trying to do in the first place..

I stumbled across this in like the second or third tactics advice when Shun would try to get his third throw after , ... but he was knocking the opponent too far away..

I just used ++ as some of the throws and whala! it worked..

so i hope that actually comes in handy.. but since I'm a newb.. you all probably knew that already.. but i got to use these cool arrows and buttons once..

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

You can do anything drunk that you can do sober. His strength doesn't knock them back any further - they just do more damage.

I think the one tricky move after drinking too much is the Chowan. You don't want to do the follow-up, so I throw in a little to prevent the follow-up.

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

ok... i swear this is true.. go to Tactics Advice and do Series #2..

the one that will tell you to do

, , High throw.

Try doing that with his normal + throw all three times..

He will be too drunk to do the third one..

unless you can like cancel the move before he drinks.. but for arguments sake.. let him drink.. and see if you can do it.. honest to goodness.. it looked to me like Jacky was knocked too far away because Shun was too drunk and let him have it a lil too much..

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

the problem isnt he knocks them back too far problem is since shun is doing more damage the hit stun on the b,f+p changes. The stun changes because the increased damage they are related as is block stun. this is why at 24 dp shun can do ppd+kk and the d+kk portion is guaranteed if you block the first two p's. you can still throw you will just have to delay the p+g a bit.

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

Why i am at it let me include a flow chart for chowan on block.

After blocked chouwan you are at -2 pretty nice position to be at considering you just tried a launcher. b,f+p is 11 frames of execution. So b,f+p beats anything they try to attack with slower than 13 frames which is almost everything outside of p. few exceptions here and there like lau's single palm,lions kk and vanessa's df+p. most good players know how good b,f+p is though so they tend to try and stop that first with standing p. This is where shun players tend to employ the uses of d+p which stops high p and nets you nice advantage doing so. this move is 12 frames and beats everything slower than 14 frames and all normal high moves. Remeber to be midful of anti d+p moves such as knee and akira's sabaki which will win despite execution time and hurt badly in doing so. After people figure out your first two branches we run into the problem of people using d+p after blocked chouwan which beats your b,f+p and your low p. if you guess this is what they will do you employ the use of u+k which smashes low p clean. even at disadvatage. these 3 possible branches of the flowchart beat all conventional attacks after blocked chouwan. now you only need be mindful of defensive flowcharts that good players sometimes use after blocked chouwan because they know your options. have a nice day

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

while we're discussing training tidbits here i'd like to bring to the table this one tactic advice thats always baffled me.

in the original VF4's training series, we are told that when shun has at least 8dps, he can beat out elbows with a d+p when his b,f+p,p,p is blocked. now what i don't understand is exactly what did the higher number of dps modify here??

reason i'm asking is because according to frame data, after shuns b,f+p,p,p is blocked, he's at something like -6. now why should he able to beat out an elbow with a d+p here when according to frame data it shouldn't be possible?? moreover whats even more weird and what really baffles me about this whole thing is that when you CONNECT the b,f+p,p,p you're supposed to be at -4 or something, yet even with 8dps you'll never be able to beat out an elbow with a d+p in this case.

could someone explain this phenomenon to me?? i tried this out in VF4 original tho so i'm not 100% sure if it applies to evo, but i'm pretty sure it does since the frame data has more or less remained untouched since then.

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

b,f+P,P,P is +3 on MC. If the LAST hit of the series is a counter hit then a low punch will always win out to an elbow afterwards.
On normal hit, the last punch is -2. A -2 delay plus a 12 frame low punch equals 14 frames, which is the same speed as an elbow. In this situation the elbow would always win. My guess is that at 8dps the frames change for b,f+P,P,P and on hit you are at an even situation where the lp would win. If you check the 1/60th site there are some moves that give you more frame advantage the more drinks you have. So yeah basicaly the drinks are doing the work. Assuming all things being even it shouldn't work on 1-7dps (if it does still work.)

 

This is as good a place as any

Just wondering, but for Vf4: Evo, in arcade #4, you have to win 2 matches in a row without blocking.

Now, for using shun, what does that mean? You can't press block, or is it simply you cant succesfuly block a move? Because many shun moves rely on guard.

 

Re: This is as good a place as any

I would guess it just involves A LOT of moving around.. like in his stances and whatnot.. there's a certain flow I can feel when i go from stance to stance..

plus i figure a lot of using the , + move to get some distance would be needed..

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

after you've exhausted those few options, what about his wierd backwards evade/dash that can go into the slap or the double handed attack? how many frames does that take to execute? is it viable after a blocked attack?

 

Re: Training tidbit of advice

[ QUOTE ]
DrunkenCat said:

b,f+P,P,P is +3 on MC. If the LAST hit of the series is a counter hit then a low punch will always win out to an elbow afterwards.
On normal hit, the last punch is -2. A -2 delay plus a 12 frame low punch equals 14 frames, which is the same speed as an elbow. In this situation the elbow would always win. My guess is that at 8dps the frames change for b,f+P,P,P and on hit you are at an even situation where the lp would win. If you check the 1/60th site there are some moves that give you more frame advantage the more drinks you have. So yeah basicaly the drinks are doing the work. Assuming all things being even it shouldn't work on 1-7dps (if it does still work.)

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you misunderstood what i'm saying here.

what i said was that when shun has 8dps the d+p will BEAT an elbow when the b,f+p,p,p is BLOCKED and will LOSE when the b,f+p,p,p CONNECTS.

when you have LESS then 8dps, the d+p will LOSE regardless of whether the b,f+p,p,p HIT or was BLOCKED.

what i was saying was this baffles me because as far as i know, shun or anyone's d+p doesn't have any evasive properties so whether it beats or loses to an attack should be determined more or less purely by frame data, yet according to frame data, it should LOSE to an elbow whether the b,f+p,p,p is blocked or hits even when shun has 8dps. (additionally elbow is another attack whose beat/lose properties should be determined purely by f.data since it has no evasive properties to the best of my knowledge).

the MC argument is sort of irrelevant imo since the chances or getting just the last hit of the b,f+p,p,p to MC are extremely slim. i never even checked the frame data for that (i only check the MC f.data for the first hit of b,f+p,p,p since thats the only part of the string that is likely to MC in a match).

 

Re: This is as good a place as any

just don't actually block anything. Pressing guard (like doing K+G) is fine.

I think just standing and guarding without actually blocking an attack is ok too.

 

Re: This is as good a place as any

Shun's special db|ub+p+k+g has 25 frames of recovery on it but the p afterwards clocks in at 11 frames of execution. so basically you can stick this into anywhere with small to medium disadvatage low kick minor counter bloked chouwan etc. Its a guessing game though if you dodge and dont do the punch and they guess right your gonna eat damage some with the follow up p is 34 frames of recovery on whiff only -2 on block. If it whiffs and your opponent is smart its gonna hurt.

 

Re: This is as good a place as any

Yo I'm a big shun player..I've been playing him since VF2 as I really considered him to be the most unique character by far and quite fun to play. Anyway after reviewing everyone's strategies around here I have to say that mine are quite different...barely anyone mentioned what I deem to be one of Shun's best attacks, the bK+G, especially if you hold and go into drunken stance. It puts a good deal of distance between you and your opponent, and often players who don't go up against many drunken masters think it to be so harmless looking they'll often receive many a beating. I was quite happy when EVO introduced the wonderful roll-attacks that can be executed from DS, making this move even greater, as you can now nigh instantly close the distance you created. I also make use of the bP+K+G dashes a lot, mainly to step away from a cautious fighter and enjoy a few drinks. It doesn't work too well against Lau or Kage players but for everyone else I tend to get boozed pretty quickly. If at the end of the first round I don't have at least 10 drinks I'm sorely dissapointed in myself.
Also, I wanted to ask the shun folks what their opening move usually is...most of the time I go with either b/dfP, bfppp, or the lovely bK+G dance. All three have been working out pretty nicely for me.
There was also a shun player out there who said that instead of pouncing they usually enjoy a few drinks. I'm of the same mindset, and it works well for me. I'm a patient guy and I usually don't mind sacrificing a round to get really tanked. I tend to come through in the end.

 

Re: This is as good a place as any

hmmm openers imo his best are.

1.,+p: with an execution time of 11 frames this move out quicks most other options of your opponent. sets up forced guessing game of throw or chouwan on Mc

2. Chouwan: prolly shuns absolute best move imo. its the best floater in the game and at 15 frames of exe and -2 on block completly worth it. This moves gets extra setup by the fact your ,+ is so fast. It forces your opponent to try and counter that with something fast like there own standing if its 11 or a low move. Chouwan does a good job of smashing these.

3.|+++: it dodges all linear moves and leaves you with a follow up just in case. Use this move in special cases where your first 2 options lose. Example being sarah's Dragon Cannon which snuffs both option 1 and 2 on opener due to her avoiding most high moves and leaning back so you move is out of range . If you make things whiff with this move good damage is guaranteed. anf if they try to follow you and throw you do the . Which nets nice advantage on Mc

4. ++: its pretty slow and doesnt seem like a logical opener but it stops all the dash back whoring some people like to do on opener. it also dodges under many many mid moves. its -18 on block but its worth the risk imo. keep in mind mainly as a 4th option.

 

Re: This is as good a place as any

+ is a good move, but I never use it as a round opener, and most characters can whack you when it's blocked. If you go into the DS afterwards, then you'll really get destroyed on block.

Favorite round openers. Most already mentioned, but:
++


or

 

Re: This is as good a place as any

+ is a good opener mainly because of its ability to sneak under most mids. I just dont like it because of the -10 on normal hit.

+ is rare in its opening uses to me as its the same speed as + but has none of the floating abilities ateast not until 18dp. Only reason i can see to use this move on opener is because you think they will crouching guard and at that point might as well use +

++: is only useable is a few situationa mainly when your at small disadvatage and think the opponent will swing. This situation is handled better by +++, as its much safer. Best use for ++ is for pressuring the riser. worst case scenario is you eat a max distance dblplm from akira. mostly if you get hit it was by a delayed rising from distance really not too bad. This moves smashes rising attacks badly which is its key use imo. Too risky to use in a normal position but as oki its one of the better moves in the game.