Here's some inspiration for you...

Here's another fun hypothetical scenario for those religious types. What if God is actually just a soul farmer? In this scenario, God created the universe for humans, just as most monotheistic religions believe. He had to make the universe complex and intricate to allow for humans to have fully developed free will. But his motives are not quite as pure as you might suppose. You see, nothing tastes better to God than a pure human soul. A soul that has chosen to be good and pious through free will. So he created this universe, purely so he could cultivate souls of this nature. As soon as people who have lived good lives die, and their souls are released, God immediately consumes them through some sort of metaphysical process. The ones that are no good? He sends them to live with the Devil where they can party and listen to rock and roll music for the rest of eternity.

The fun thing about this one, is that any argument you can use for the existence of God would also be an argument in favor of this scenario. And it's just as irrefutable as the theory of a more traditional view of God. I welcome the argument of any religious person who thinks they can refute the idea that we are living this scenario.

 

The truth

 

Another nice little theory

Regarding God/creation etc a debate that has raged for the ages, and probably not that important really.

 

Lol, but check your sources. I think 4chan has to be the best evidence that exists on the face of the planet that there is no God.

 

Just because its not clear how you get something from nothing, doesn't mean that it is impossible to get something from nothing. [Ass]uming that, what we are talking about here actually requires that you get something from nothing, doesn't mean that you need a God to do it.

Lets look at it in simple terms. Lets do a little thought experiment. Say that in all of existence there are only 1,000,000 things that can be done(I did say experiment). Say that man's knowledge allowed him to do 10 of those things. Lets assume for now there is an almighty God, and he can do 1,000,000 things. He can do 999,990 things that we cannot do. And because he can do so many things that we cannot do he gets the title of Almighty God. It is all about doing things right? If we could do everything that almighty God could do then there would be no need for Almighty Gody right?

Okay, out of the 10 things that we know how to do, one of them is send probes throughout the galaxies. Lets say that we sent a probe deep into Andromeda and we discovered life there.
Life that could perform 999,989 things. Now because that life
in Andromeda could only perform 999,989 things and not 999,990 things then that life cannot do more things than Almighty God and therefore is not Almighty God. We are resolved to refer to that life in Andromeda as an alien life form.

Now because mankind can only do 10 things and the alien life form can do 999,989 things and that's so many more things than many can do what are we to conclude? Lets say out of that 999,989 things that the alien life form can do, one of them is to get something from nothing. But since the alien life form cannot do everything that Almighty God can (999,990 things), then they aren't Almighty God. They're just a bunch fucking powerful aliens. bare with me here.

Now lets just say that the probe also visited M-87 another Galaxy floating out there and we found life that could perform
999,988 things. Now because that life can't do the 999,990 things that we can't do, then it must be alien also. But its not as powerful as the alien life in Andromeda, but mankind can only do 10 things and the life in M-87 can do 999,988 things. Lets just say one of things that life in M-87 can do is take inanimate matter and bring it to life, although it can't make something from nothing, it can take non living, and make it living. What are we to conclude? Numerically, we should be serving the advanced life found in M-87 and Andromeda
just by virtue of how many more things they can do. Sure they
can't do all 1,000,000 things 999,999 is close right? If one being can do 1,000,000 things and the other can do 999,999 things they're pretty darn close right?


Here's my point, for those who don't have time.
There are for the sake of this argument millions of galaxies, and each galaxy might have thousands of planets that support life . And that life might be extremely advanced compared to mankind. Let say that much of that life can do 500,000 things or more compared to our 10 things. And among the things that life can do is nuclear fusion, animating the inaminate, creating something from nothing, etc.

Would mankind be able to tell the difference Yea, could we tell the difference between the Almighty God an a race of aliens that are Almost Almighty?[/size] You know, an alien race that can do everything that Almighty God can do, except for 1 thing. Kind-a-like God - 1. If God -1 visited Earth, do we currently have the understanding to know the difference between God and God -1 , or God - 2, or God - 100,000? If we worship Almighty God, why not worship almost Almighty God?

The fact of the matter is, if we happend to come in contact with other life in this Universe that was only 3 times as powerful as us (e.g can do 30 things compared to our 10 things) would we know the difference? Would we think we had just found God? LOL Would it make a difference? Or would the religious people all start to bow in homage?

Perhaps its not God that people need after all. Perhaps they just need a race that is little more advanced than we are today. A race that is capable of curing cancer, or restoring
vision. A race that can bring back the dead, or a race that can make something from nothing. Perhaps God would be overkill for these people.

In fact maybe these people don't even need a race more advanced than we are. Maybe all they need is time. Because in time mankind will be able to cure cancer, give sight to the blind, bring back the dead (for a price) , and create something from nothing.

Perhaps in the scheme of things an Almighty God is not even necessary. Perhaps all thats needed is a little patience, or
a method of hooking up with some advanced life in one of the millions of galaxies out there.

If we came in contact with life from other galaxies that had 1000 or 10000 times our knowledge most people couldn't tell the difference between that lifeform and their sacred notion of
God. Especially if that lifeform could present itself in whatever mental construction was necessary.


Scientifically and Mathematically speaking. The probability of there being an Almighty God especially of the (Islamic, Judaeo, Christian) variety is close to Zero. On the other hand the probability of other life in this Universe 20 or 30 times more advanced or complex than we are between 80%-100%

It is also the case, that the majority of things that most people think that only God can do, man will be capable of doing in a century or so, if he doesn't destroy himself, or if no cosmic catastrophe destroys him first. Once man can do everything that people attribute to God what does that make man? What does that make God?

Obviously the only difference between man, advanced alien civilizations and God is time.....

 

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I can see the logic of a person who thinks that all LIVING creatures just evolved into what they are today and that there is no intelligent design whatsoever to anything around us...
but the design of the universe and just how perfectly made and positioned this planet is for our survival is just too much damn "coincidence".
What, did our universe evolve too? Did it evolve to suit our needs?

Because that's what most of you here think, right? That this is all one big coincidence. That the genius, complex design of, for example, a solar eclipse... how it's designed just perfectly so that the only planet who's at just the perfect distance from the Moon and the Sun to get a view of what orbits the Sun... happens to be the only planet in our solar system with intelligent life forms on it to observe this solar eclipse.
I'll re-word that: in our solar system, the planet that can best observe what orbits the Sun during a solar eclipse, is the only planet with observers.

This is just one example of intelligent design. It's one thing to not want to call God your God or to not want to worship Him/Her/It using some silly man-made religion (I do admit most religions are pretty damn silly) but to not acknowledge the existence of some sort of amazingly intelligent and totally non-coincidental design to our universe... well, that's crazier than most religions... granted not as crazy as the religions that ask you to kill in "God's name"... but it's still pretty loony.

Disclaimer: not calling anybody crazy, it's just that particular thought process is a bit off to me. Nothing personal. You can think I'm off for believing in intelligent design and for once believing in one of the many man-made religions (I still get a chuckle out of it myself).

 

What if the universe is sentient in and of itself. If a "god" decided to make some shit, why? Did god need some inspiration? Was he bored? Does everything need a purpose?
The idea of a all powerful being that popped out of nowhere from nothing is equally as crazy no? What will god say if I ask "it" how it came to be? Yknow, besides dude "I created the universe, so that you could make plastic."

"Man was created to make plastic" ~ George Carlin

If god just is, the universe could just "be." One isn't more plausible than the other. In fact something that can do anything is much more unrealistic than somethings that can naturally occur by chances over trillions of years.

I see it like if I shit in the middle of the street everyday for a billion years, sooner or later a clown is going to step in that shit wearing a purple shoe with a blue mohawk named Bob.

Bob can happen; life is bob.

 

BLACKLAC you have been holding out on us! Fantastic link. Bravo, sir!

On earth, we see a solar eclipse when our moon passes between us and the sun. Our moon is too remote from other planets to produce the same phenomenon for them & each solar eclipse is location specific enough such that in some places on our planet you'll see a full eclipse while on others it will be only partial and on others no eclipse will be apparent at all.

If guys on other planets want to see solar eclipses they pretty much need to be lucky & have other large objects which orbit about them or which they orbit about.

Like Mars.

 

"I can see the logic of a person who thinks that all LIVING creatures just evolved into what they are today and that there is no intelligent design whatsoever to anything around us...
but the design of the universe and just how perfectly made and positioned this planet is for our survival is just too much damn "coincidence".
What, did our universe evolve too? Did it evolve to suit our needs? laugh
"

What do you mean COINCIDENCE. If you flip a coin 100 times per attempt and try TRILLIONS OF TIMES OVER, one attempt is bound to be all heads thus one planet out of the ZILLIONS of them out there manages to have hospitable climate. Now when you add the idea of multiple universes, and the fact that there are so many damn stars there are probably many more planets like ours. We are not that special.

And honestly, even if there was a god, it clearly doesn't give a crap if you pray to it. and most important of all A RANDOM PRIEST HAS NO DAMN IDEA ABOUT GOD OR THE AFTERLIFE, NO ONE DOES everyones guess is practically equal even ones where god is made out of cheese.

Also when you think about probability, the idea that there is something THAT ABSURDLY POWERFUL is just insane and no matter what you run into the idea of "who the fuck made god then?" and "WHY? did he make us" lol. You can't assign god human instincts like "Oh it wanted to see people smile" thats just bullshit god is no human, or maybe he is we would have NO FUCKING IDEA.

I personally believe our universe came into existence because it could. I also think there are an infinite number of them all with different physical constants and laws. But it doesn't matter because those other universes would be completely isolated from ours. It would be like they didn't exist at all.
And maybe out there somewhere is a little star-man who is in another universe where gravity was a little different so that stars acted like our atoms and is thinking the same damn thing as I am.

What ever its pointless to think about it philosophically. Usually these things are based on personalities anyway since there so arbritrary. "I think we were created to destroy the universe" is just as likely as any other belief, and I'm sure some violence addicts believe that. People tend to think that what ever they experience is universal, someone who lives to fight might think the universe was made to fight. The only thing we can do IS LOOK AT THE DAMN FACTS, e=MC^2, G= gmM/r^2 etc and make the best we can with what ever we were given.

 

+1


+10000

I simply second that, entirely!

 

THIS.

Brah, the design of the universe and this planet, to me, seems far from perfect, contrary to what most people like to think. They behave exactly how we would expect it to behave if they arose naturally - without intelligent design. Actually, much of it seems like "stupid design". Before people jump down my throat for stating that, please check this really short clip of Neil deGrasse Tyson, a prominent American astrophysicist. It really brings things into perspective:

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Humans evolved to see patterns in nature. We are pattern-seeking primates with a belief engine in our brain. This results in a tendency to find meaningful patterns in both meaningful and meaningless noise. We revel in connecting the dots (A is connected to B, B is connected to C, Pavlovian conditioning, associative behavior, etc.) This obsession with patterns leads us to superstition (and rituals). In our evolutionary past, it helped us survive in the wild. So, it seems as though we are hard-wired for belief (in god, etc.) It is the default option for humans. Belief comes naturally to us, while disbelief, skepticism, and science is not natural. It's more difficult and uncomfortable to not believe things.

We no longer need training wheels. Just because thinking and behaving in a certain way was useful in our distant past doesn't make it necessary or useful now.

Also, that truly was a fantastic video that Blacklac posted. Everyone should see it. Mind-blowing shit!

The state of science and math education in our society is sad. Most people (at least in the States) simply do not have an even basic understanding of the major principles, findings, and theories of the various sciences. There is so much wonder and awe (and ultimately truth) to be gained if people nowadays, in general, had more of an appreciation for the sciences.

 

If you believe that the nature of mankind is too be "kind" then yeah the money would have been better spent aiding people that were starving in India. I've truly come to believe that the nature of man isn't to be kind. I've seen the general populace ignore the hungry, poor, and sick constantly on a day to day basis. Man is a creature of progress.

 

And in truth, charity accomplishes nothing. All you are doing by being charitable is to send the message it's ok not to be self-sufficient. If you don't like it that people are suffering, the best (and only) way to help is to give them opportunities to sustain themselves. Handouts for doing nothing are only going to make things worse.

 

BLACKLAC Impressive reference!

religions and the idea of gods are artifacts, relics, from a social technology that is no longer relevant in the 21rst century. They have been replaced by the sciences and mathematics.

@Adam Yuki dead right dude. Life/ existence is awesome, and once you realize that its all out there, to be explored, understood, investigated, and appreciated, then you have a certain amount of excitement to look forward to everyday. Life becomes an adventure, a quest that you can interactively participate in. Uncovering and discovering mysteries of the Universive with the tools of a rational mind, science, and mathematics. Its both and exciting and terrible time to be alive.


I'm relieved to see so many in this thread realize that.

 

I think you will enjoy this debate. You seem to be saying the same things as David Wolpe in terms of why religion is needed, charity, helping others etc... but I'm of the opinion of Christopher Hitchens in that you don't need religion for these things. There is no "divine power" giving me morality.

Disclaimer: Christopher Hitchens is an ass(understatement) and I don't agree with all of his views but when it comes to religion imo he's spot on.
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See I'm all for worshiping imaginary friends, heck one could consider all the time we devote to VF as similar. But what ticks me off PROFUSELY, is that these people ARE FUCKING WITH OUR EDUCATION AND OUR GOD DAMN SCIENCE DIRECTLY, AND EVEN OUR BASIC RIGHTS.
Abortion, stem cell research, evolution in schools
these are all issues that are FUCKED because of crazy religious nuts in america. You can believe what EVER YOU WANT but don't go BANNING MY RESEARCH TO FUCKING CURE YOUR ASS, and FORCING MY KID TO LISTEN TO YOUR LIES, yes LIES because most of intelligent design is LIES, they practically MAKE UP evidence, and out-right LIE about quotes and modern science. They shit like "TOP SCIENTISTS DID A STUDY, AND THEY FOUND OUT ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR CERTAIN STRUCTURES TO HAVE EVOLVED IN THE CELL!" I heard this in a god damn cab once, where the cab driver's church watched some video saying this. NOT ONLY are those not top scientists but WE HAVE ALREADY GOD DAMN FOUND MOST OF THE STEPS LEADING TO THE EVOLUTION OF THE STRUCTURES IN OUR CELLS! EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN CHALLENGE OR EVIDENCE HAS BEEN DISPROVED AND CONFRONTED! Thats the beauty of science, shit is CONTESTED and DISPROVED constantly, in order for a theory to survive it has to be TRUE because just ONE EXAMPLE of it being false completely negates it. EVEN ISAAC NEWTON'S THEORY OF GRAVITY was proven to be somewhat wrong, (einstein found more accurate equations, newton's ones are fine and close estimates though).

Imagine you teach a history course, and some nuts come in and say "Hey! WW2 NEVER HAPPENED WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?" and teach and convince innocent children that "WW2 never happened, its a hoax, in actuality the world leaders got together and had a BIGG CHESS TOURNAMENT, and USA/West Europe won our world is made of candies and is perfect !"
WTF IS THAT? This is becoming a SERIOUS ISSUE in not only america but in some european contries now. its INSANE! Evolution is the only god damn thing that can actually make sense of ANYTHING in biology. otherwise you have to ask "Wait.. why didn't god make the human spine a little better, why do we still have back problems constantly? Why can't we fly?" etc its just non-sensical without it, AND there are direct medical effects like how most of our anti-bacterial tactics are based on the fact that we expect the bacteria to evolve to fight our treatments.
And then there is stem cell research. Who the hell knows what amazing breakthroughs we could have had by now...

Religion, and government should not mix, its in the damn constitution, and yet these damn ignorant basterds are HURTING THEMSELVES AS WELL AS US, by sticking there noses and thinking they know what they are doing when they really really don't...

And then theres the whole charity thing, similar to what Xzyx said who needs religion to be a nice person? It almost makes religious people seem evil and mean "I'm only being nice to you because I'll get tortured in the afterlife if I don't" its ... perverted..
Charity itself is pretty silly. What happens when you give starving people food? They eat it, reproduce and now you have MORE starving people. Teaching them how to fish is different, building schools etc is great, but just handing them food is sending the message "Its okay for you to just sit on your ass and beg." Unacceptable.

Now you also say that "did we really need to go to the moon." Now what you don't see is the big picture. Were not just doing it to go to the moon, going there is mostly just a asthetic prize, a gold medal, to learning how to do it. Engineering took many steps forward with that mission. You think your planes would be as fast and cheap if we didn't do the research on engineering to fly to the moon? For these kinds of things its more about the journey and the items and skill you acquire then the destination. Oh and duh, satellites where would we be without those . Well there could be direct benefits to going to the moon too, we might build colonies or solar panels or something there one of these days.

It also puts a smile on my face to see all you guys with similar beliefs, and at the very least open minds and good hearts. I love this community...

 

I don't care what human nature 'dictates' or 'says'. I'd almost argue that those are symptoms of something cultural and not something hardwired into our brains, but that's a whole different can of worms. Humans have the capacity for altruism, even if it is ultimately driven by a personal motive. We can do the right thing. Whether we will is ultimately up to ourselves.