Homosexuality and Gay Marriage

I like what you posted, Plaque. It kinda hit me in the heart.
Shit, I could care less about what other people do. I have a couple of gay friends that have been there for me for years. People always bring up the bible and what not. It's funny that the same arguements that are used against homosexuals today were (and still are) used against people of color. It's really sad. I'm not gonna claim to know God wants or feels. It's really not my place as a lowly mortal to even try.

 

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Hieter976 said:
did you just come out of the closet?

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sup nigga

 

I appreciate your thanks and I'm glad you think the way you do.

Prior to the last few years I didn't really think much about racism or gay bashing or lack of awareness or understanding. I've never thought differently than I do I now - I just didn't think about it at all.

Now that I can see these things happen and empathize with what people go through on a daily basis because of how they were born... Fuck, I want to do something about it. It pisses me off when I hear someone use a slur - It's mind blowing - I want to shout "how can you possibly think someone has less value than you because they're (insert: Asian, Black, Mexican, White, gay, short, fat, tall, the list goes on)."

The thing that's hopeful or disgusting (depending how you look at it) is that racism and hatred are learned. I feel that you could wipe out a generation and get rid of all the hatred. I am aware that it may return due to fear of the unknown. I don't really know what causes that kind of fear. I guess that a big part of it could be attributed to insecurity, lack of confidence, poor self image - like I said, I'm just guessing. I had this scenario described to me "All thoughts of racism aside - pretend it doesn't exist - imagine yourself being the only white person in a room full of black people. Wouldn't you feel a little wierd and afraid just because you were different from everyone." My initial thought was "yeah, I would." Thinking about that right now, I'd have to say I'd be afraid of getting hurt because I was different - which is totally insulting to anyone else that would've been in that room. Interesting shit, I must say.

I really want things to get to the point where a man or women seeing a homosexual couple (married or not) would automatically think "I'm happy for them. I hope they're happy, too." Or, at least, not notice it at all.

 

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Plague said:
I really want things to get to the point where a man or women seeing a homosexual couple (married or not) would automatically think "I'm happy for them. I hope they're happy, too." Or, at least, not notice it at all.

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Now, I would consider myself somewhat liberal, but are there really numerous people who would think of that as sick or disturbing? Me being of "the new generation" and all can see no wrong in persons of the same sex enjoying each others company. I am not religious. My initial thought upon this thread was "as if someone's gonna argue that!", but as it turns out, there really are people having issues with homsexuality(!).

I think it's marvelous that people have opinions, even if they're not same as my own. Do not misunderstand me. But from where have you got the thought that gay persons don't have the same rights as everyone else?(sorry I'm speaking black/white here)

Is it the bible?
Is it something you have thought out yourself?
Is that the opinion of your idol?

If you are of another opinion than I am, feel free to let us know why.

--pkg_inc--

 

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pkg_inc said:
Do not misunderstand me. But from where have you got the thought that gay persons don't have the same rights as everyone else?(sorry I'm speaking black/white here)

Is it the bible?
Is it something you have thought out yourself?
Is that the opinion of your idol?

If you are of another opinion than I am, feel free to let us know why.


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Here's an Australian news article that kind of sums up the situation of gay marriages in the United States.

I've also read news about people desiring a constitutional ammendment that describes marriage as only being between a man and a woman.

There are many people in the US that are fine or at least indifferent regarding the idea of gay marriage. There are many more that feel free to hurl the insert "fag" around with little thought. In the US, homosexuality is generally viewed in a negative light. It's funny you mention black and white - our current president likes to use terms like that. The Iraq occupation is good vs. evil. God is on our side. Etc. It's not always an open-minded environment here in the states.

 

i dont really care. its not one of those things that particularly concerns me directly. i'll take the passive road on this topic. im not homophobic or gay so it doesnt interest me that much. though i am Christian, and as a Christian, i dont care. these are the kinds of topics i think i should stay out of. i have more things to worry about.

it does touch upon the sacrament of marriage and i think homosexual marriage violates it (i'll try and find the church's rules on marriage). but again, people have the right to marry whomever they want.

if u were wondering why i posted, its because you might have wanted to hear from my POV as a Christian that doesn't care... and besides, its a very good thread and i wanted a say in it lol.

PS. very good arguments so far. dont hate lol.

PSS. im one of those ppl that are "indifferent" about the situation as you may have already noticed. but i dont live in the states lol.

 

fags are ok with me and im ok with fags.



end of line

 

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Plague said:
There are many people in the US that are fine or at least indifferent regarding the idea of gay marriage. There are many more that feel free to hurl the insert "fag" around with little thought. In the US, homosexuality is generally viewed in a negative light. It's funny you mention black and white - our current president likes to use terms like that. The Iraq occupation is good vs. evil. God is on our side. Etc. It's not always an open-minded environment here in the states.

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I think this is quite true, and there's a kind of macho-ness that comes across with US males that you don't find elsewhere.

I remember watching that film "Anger Managment", and there's a scene with Jack Nicolson sleeping in the same bed as his male therapy patient. The patient is mortified, and Jack's character says something like "Males in Europe do this all the time".

Now that's an exageration. However, males in parts of europe will actually hold hands and kiss as ways of expressing friendship. Let me emphapise that this dosen't include the UK!

Also, during our trips to Indian, Debs and I witnessed loads of male Indian's holding hands while walking down the road, and not in any any homosexual way. It's weird to see at first, but then you get used to it and start to realise that it's perfectly innocent.

My point with this is that I think there's an acute fear amongst American males that if they speak out for homosexuals or sympathise with their cause that they'll somehow appear gay or be branded as such. This in turn leads to insecure comments like "I hate fags".

Britain isn't much different to be honest, but we're not as scared to discuss it and our politicians almost universally agree on more rights for gay people.

 

After reading the article Plague referred to, I must say I'm shocked. I mean, it's not like I've pictured Bush as some holy, fantastic person or anything, but I've never heard anything so harsh.
Where I live (Norway), most people (I know) see Bush as a stupid, lazy president, who have his hands full doing nothing. Suddenly (well for me it's suddenly, (and I'll try to stop using the parentheses all the time)), he turns out to be this arrogant sod who is horribly condemning.

In Norway, the biggest discussion we've had on this topic was whether a female bishop, who came out of the closet, were to still keep her position. But then again, Norway is a small country. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

More skeletons in the closet banging on the door, wanting to come out?

 

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pkg_inc said:
In Norway, the biggest discussion we've had on this topic was whether a female bishop, who came out of the closet, were to still keep her position. But then again, Norway is a small country. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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I think female bishop would cause enough uproar on its own with some people in the US. Never mind that she came out. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Some will flame me to kingdom come for this -

There's a popular question that's even asked even amongst gays: is homosexuality really natural? How many long lasting successful gay couplings do you know of?

The bible is pretty clear, and consistent in old and new testaments, regarding its stance on homosexuality. There's little room to condone homosexuality, if you take the bible seriously.

HOWEVER,

the point that many people miss, is that the bible/God does not bash homosexuals. The bible bashes homosexuality, not homosexuals. As aforementioned earler in the thread, sin is sin, and we're all sinners in the eyes of God, so a hetereosexual is really no better than a homosexual. Is homosexuality inherited? Personally, I don't think so, but it really doesn't matter, because as far as the bible is concerned, we're all born sinners anyway. Again like said earlier in this thread, there is no such thing as a sin gradient, or a sin-o-meter, or whatever- the bible makes it very clear that we have all fallen short of the glory of God.

So, a serious church readily accepts homosexuals into its fold, as it would anybody else for that matter. But it does so, while letting them know that their practice is not condoned. But heterosexuals have just as much to repent, and it's a long road for us all. Since I'm in NYC, I'll note that that Redeemer, Times SQ, two of the most successful churches in Manhattan, have among the best homosexual groups, and following this approach. I have a few gay friends myself. We Christians don't hate gays, we just see them as sinners, just as we see ourselves.

 

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is homosexuality really natural? How many long lasting successful gay couplings do you know of?


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I don't know how the two questions relate to each other. define natural that isn't framed inside a heterosexual context (don't use procreation since there are other relationships based on love that don't use that notion to find validity).

As for long lasting relationships: When you're gay at twenty you're thirteen all over again. How many first relations still stand between heteros when they are formed in high school? Not many. However, I have three homosexual frends that have concrete and real relationships that have been going on for over ten years (university grads who met each other before I met them except one case where they met on Frosh week). Conversely I have three heterosexual friends whose marriages ended in under two years.

GE

 

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agios_katastrof said:

There's a popular question that's even asked even amongst gays: is homosexuality really natural? How many long lasting successful gay couplings do you know of?

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I think people are born homosexual. I think it's natural. I don't know many gay people but I know of at least one long lasting relationship. I think length of relationship has no correlation to the couple being hetero or homosexual.

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agios_katastrof said:
The bible is pretty clear, and consistent in old and new testaments, regarding its stance on homosexuality. There's little room to condone homosexuality, if you take the bible seriously.


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I don't take it that seriously.

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agios_katastrof said:
the point that many people miss, is that the bible/God does not bash homosexuals. The bible bashes homosexuality, not homosexuals. As aforementioned earler in the thread, sin is sin, and we're all sinners in the eyes of God, so a hetereosexual is really no better than a homosexual. Is homosexuality inherited? Personally, I don't think so, but it really doesn't matter, because as far as the bible is concerned, we're all born sinners anyway. Again like said earlier in this thread, there is no such thing as a sin gradient, or a sin-o-meter, or whatever- the bible makes it very clear that we have all fallen short of the glory of God.

So, a serious church readily accepts homosexuals into its fold, as it would anybody else for that matter. But it does so, while letting them know that their practice is not condoned. But heterosexuals have just as much to repent, and it's a long road for us all. Since I'm in NYC, I'll note that that Redeemer, Times SQ, two of the most successful churches in Manhattan, have among the best homosexual groups, and following this approach. I have a few gay friends myself. We Christians don't hate gays, we just see them as sinners, just as we see ourselves.


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The Catholic Church has very specific guidelines when it comes to sexual activity: Don't have sex before you are married. Once you are married, the only contraception acceptable is sexual activity on those days that the woman's egg can't be fertilized. The male must ejaculate into the women's vagina (anal and oral penetration are not banned, but men aren't allowed to ejaculate in either of those orifices nor all over the skin of their wife - the booklet says something like, "well, you can have anal sex, but since you have to place your penis in her vagina to ejaculate, risk of disease or contamination dictates you should clean yourself - so why would you want to go to all that trouble?").

When I got married, I actually recieved the above information in an official document. The church actually gives you instructions on how to have sex.

Homsexuals aren't allowed to have sex at all. I disagree with that bias. How would you, as a heterosexual, feel about being told you could never have sex with the person you love? "The church accepts all you gay people with open arms. We love you as long as you never fuck."

You spout things like "We Christians don't hate gays" as if you could possibly speak for all of them. I'm glad that you don't hate gays - although you think they shouldn't be allowed to have sex. I bet many Christians hate gays with all their being because the bible bashes homosexuality.

 

Statistically, and personally from the gay people that I know of, the long lasting homosexual relationships are the rarity. Unfortunately, as GE noted, hetereo marriages aren't exactly in a beautiful state at the moment, but still, the percentage of good-long relationships are much, much higher in hetero, than in homo.

You may not take the bible seriously, but churches obviously do. That's why they have this staunch stance on homosexuality. It's not like they like all the unpopular press that they get along with it. But unfortunately, a lot of Christians also miss the point that it's the sin that God hates, and not the sinners. There are clear reasons as to why I am not Catholic. And you are quite right, I cannot speak for all Christians. Hating gays is just as an erroneous reading of the bible as condoning homosexuality. But the sincere Christians that I know, really don't hate gays.

 

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agios_katastrof said:

Statistically, and personally from the gay people that I know of, the long lasting homosexual relationships are the rarity. Unfortunately, as GE noted, hetereo marriages aren't exactly in a beautiful state at the moment, but still, the percentage of good-long relationships are much, much higher in hetero, than in homo.


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I think it would be hard to find accurate statistics on homosexual relationships as there's no official recording of them in the US (at least not compared to heterosexual marriages). Also, how many gay people never mention their relationships so as to avoid persecution? Again, length of relationships has little to do with sexual orientation.

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agios_katastrof said:
You may not take the bible seriously, but churches obviously do. That's why they have this staunch stance on homosexuality. It's not like they like all the unpopular press that they get along with it.


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I don't think the negative press amounts to much. I don't imagine you'll see positive press anyway "this just in: the church condemns homosexuality. Cities across the US jump for joy and this newspaper supports them."

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agios_katastrof said:
But unfortunately, a lot of Christians also miss the point that it's the sin that God hates, and not the sinners.

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It's quite easy to drive the masses to hate when your text describes homosexuality as an abomination. People are easily influenced. They fear what is different from them. It takes education to rise above bigotry and hatred of people because of how they were born. The teeming masses aren't necessarily that enlightened. The church prohibits sexual acts between homosexuals - acts of love between consenting adults. I can't justify that. I don't think God hates gay sex. God invented sex. God imbued us all with sexual desire to varying degrees. If God is actually all powerful (which I doubt), do you think he would knowingly condemn anyone to a life that was hated?

Think for yourself.

 

I don't believe that people are born homosexual, so we are at an impasse here.

But generalizing your point, you do raise some thoughts which Christians ourselves ask. It's something that I asked myself (before becoming Christian).

Think for ourselves? Yes, to a point- something which many people also don't realize, or are too arrogant to accept, is the simple fact that human beings do not possess infinite intelligence. We may be the smartest things on legs on planet earth, but we do have a ceiling of understanding. There is a point, after which, no amount of human reasoning will clarify. I don't know why people can't accept this. Take say, an example of fictional chimpanzee by the name of Dan. Dan may be the smartest chimp alive. Dan got himself to learn sign language and whatnot, and communicates his desire for bananas, which makes the zoo keepers all amazed and happy. Hell, Dan knows how to do Akira's knee. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif But no matter how hard Dan and his trainers try, Dan will never grasp the concept of calculus. Why not? Calculus is simplely beyond his reach of understanding.

We humans understand calculus. We have a higher ceiling of understanding than Dan. But we too, have a ceiling which we cannot cross. It is arrogance and foolishness to think otherwise.

God is not presenting us with the rules of engagement by which we must abide by. It's rather that he is presenting us with a set of guidelines by which we will live happier lives. While some are apparent, we do not understand the reasoning behind all of these guidelines, or why things are the way they are- because they are beyond our understanding to do so. Sin is not a broken rule, rather it's deviation from the livelihood which would make us the happiest. Back to the original topic, I honestly do believe that gay people would live happier lives, if they lived heterosexual lives. And I do believe that it's possible. I can honestly say that I enjoy my life a lot more post my Christian conversion.

 

Are you sayng we are monkeys who are only moderatly smarter then the average circus chimp?

 

So you're saying that what you described is every Christians opinion about gays?

Aren't we generalising just a little bit?

I think it is super that you enjoy your life as a Christian /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

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agios_katastrof said:

I don't believe that people are born homosexual, so we are at an impasse here.
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I honestly do believe that gay people would live happier lives, if they lived heterosexual lives. And I do believe that it's possible.

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I gather that you think heterosexuals choose to be gay. Why, given the amount of derision and hatred directed toward gays, would they "choose" that sort of life? If you could choose - what would it take for you to suddenly prefer sex with a man?

I can't show you genetic research that proves you can be born gay. Logic, rationality, and reasoning indicate that it is not a choice to be gay. I have the mental capacity to grasp that.

How do you think it's possible for a 45 year old who's had homosexual desires since they were oh, say 8 years old, to become straight? You say you believe it's possible. Please elaborate.

 

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honestly do believe that gay people would live happier lives, if they lived heterosexual lives. And I do believe that it's possible

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So did Christian ministries. They enjoyed a 30% conversion rate. And even then this 30% was based on a single year of heterosexual marriage or celibacy. The marriages almost always fail after that "succesful" year and then the true aftermath of divorce and the effect on children (if any) and social groups begins to hit hard.

That makes for a very happy life.


Outward behavior is easy to change. the underlying reasons for that behavior are less so. "praying out the gay" (reparative therapy) is destructive and has shown no success in an open and honest interview (not conducted by the converting force).


GE