Homosexuality and Gay Marriage

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gather that you think heterosexuals choose to be gay. Why, given the amount of derision and hatred directed toward gays, would they "choose" that sort of life? If you could choose - what would it take for you to suddenly prefer sex with a man?


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I think it is possible that it is a choice. But a different choice from the one that most people tend to conceive of. I think it is possible to see past the illusion of separation and make a choice on how you create your world and then react within it. It is possible that orientation is founded on that ability to make free choices not bound by the hard, inaccurate spine of "genre" and "titles" which are handed down and not discovered as being inherent.

Many people are prosecuted for their beliefs and choices. The type of belief and the choice stemming from that is all that changes. making choices based on fear is the hallmark of the majority and the stamp of cowardice.

GE

 

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GodEater said:
I think it is possible that it is a choice. But a different choice from the one that most people tend to conceive of. I think it is possible to see past the illusion of separation and make a choice on how you create your world and then react within it. It is possible that orientation is founded on that ability to make free choices not bound by the hard, inaccurate spine of "genre" and "titles" which are handed down and not discovered as being inherent.


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I think I'm having difficulty understanding all of that paragraph... I think that you can create your own world and react the way you want to in this example: "I think everyone in the world is out to get me so I'll react with paranoia and hostility." I also think that men in prison, looking for physical satisfaction, want to have intercourse with other men because they're tired of just masturbating - they choose homosexual behavior rather than celibacy. I imagine it wouldn't be too disturbing to them if they view the act as just a new way to get off. I would think that upon release from prison they would prefer the company of women.

Regarding the illusion of separation...
I suppose if society didn't define homosexuality and heterosexuality and a person felt free to copulate with males or females, sexual orientation would be a non-issue because it simply wasn't recognized. I did observe two of the Japanese competitors at the EVO 2k3 after-tourney-get-together at Sean's place sitting together on the couch in some sort of embrace or another. One would be playing, the other sat behind him with arms on the player's shoulders - sensually massaging them from time to time. Some could look at that and shout "GAY!" I just thought that they were really comfortable with themselves and each other and that their behavior is probably widely accepted in Japan. I'm secure in my own masculinity that if they massaged me I probably would've thought "hey, that massage feels pretty good."

I classify homosexual desires as genetic the same way that skin color is genetic. I do also believe that the degree of homosexual desire can vary from person to person - think of a sliding scale with hetero on one end and homo on the other - the marker will sit somewhere in between.

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GodEater said:
Many people are prosecuted for their beliefs and choices. The type of belief and the choice stemming from that is all that changes. making choices based on fear is the hallmark of the majority and the stamp of cowardice.


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I agree. I'm judged on my decision to play video games for entertainment rather than drinking at bars. I'm judged because I grow my hair long. Those are things I could change if I wanted to. I accept derisive opinions as part of life. I can't see changing my sexual desire so I would view judgement about that quite differently.

 

this is how i understand it. there are two ways to be gay. one is lets say "made by god" if you will. that is your born gay. the other is "made by man". thats basically when your mollested as a child and from that you get kinda scrambled in the brain and certain 'switches' are throne to make you desire one thing or another. a kids brain is still forming up to a certain age and paths can be set in one way or another. just like if you learn a musical insturment at a younger age its been shown that you can pick up other insturmenst easier and are more creative. also once these paths in the brain are made they cant be un made. so eather way your gay for ever.
besides who the fuck cares if you wanna put yer weener in some guys ass...

 

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this is how i understand it. there are two ways to be gay. one is lets say "made by god" if you will. that is your born gay. the other is "made by man". thats basically when your mollested as a child and from that you get kinda scrambled in the brain and certain 'switches' are throne to make you desire one thing or another.

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there's a lot of problems with this post but the above paragraph highlights the most obnoxious part. are you seriously suggesting that if God is taken out of the picture the only way for a homosexual to exist is to be molested as a child?

GE

 

uh, no.

i just said "made by god" as in your born that way.

i dont really believe in god. at least not one that any religion talks about. and im not saying that one or the other type of gay is any better or worse.



look at the second cartoon...
yep

 

Fishie-
no, I think as far as all creation is concerned, we are leaps and bounds smarter than anything else. I'm just saying that there is a concrete limit to our cognitive ability.

pkg-
no, I'm saying that this is what the bible states. Unfortunately, many Christians do not read the bible carefully, if at all. Or if they do, they somehow neglect the portions that disagrees with them.

Plague-
I don't think it's a conscious choice per se, but a choice nevertheless, and somewhat gradual. It may be shaped by one's life events. I don't think one gets up and says "oh, I think I'll be gay from now on". If I am understanding GE's statement correctly, then I agree. Also, in Asia, same genders just tend to be a lot more touchy than in the west. I know not a few Korean girls here in NYC, who out of habit, walked in the streets with hands held, and were erroneously mistaken as lesbians. This has nothing to do with sexuality.

GE-
What you state- about outward and inward behavioural changes- is pretty much what the bible states. And yes, unfortunately, not a few Christian "ministries" do tend to be overzealous and destructive.

 

Kinda off the active topic here, but I asked one of my friends, who is really into the Bible, what it says about gays.

She said that homosexuality as freewilled (not forced), is seen upon as okey as any other thing. That goes also for sex, relationships, the whole package. What is not accepted on the other hand, is forced sex between two men (rape). This sound awful weird but hear me out. In the earlier times (somewhere when the Bible was written), it was not unusual that slaveowners would rape their slaves (including man2man). Of some strange reason, this was seen upon as much worse than raping a woman, and therefore, it was condemned.

You can only find this written this way in quite old Bibles (at least Norwegian ones).

If there's still someone who refuses to accept it, I'll find the exact quote for you as well. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

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agios_katastrof said:

I don't think one gets up and says "oh, I think I'll be gay from now on."

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I appreciate that you don't think that way. I believe many people do think being gay is some kind of conscious choice - I want those people to change their minds.

I don't think that environment shapes someone to be gay. Think about all those movies you see where parents force children of one sex to behave as if they were another - and the kids become, say, serial killers. Granted that movies normally exaggerate, but say your parents tried to raise you as a girl. In your formative years you may not know any different. If you're heterosexual, as you develop, you'd notice something wasn't quite right with your thoughts and feelings toward other girls. If you were then barraged with how wrong this was, you'd probably find yourself in a huge dilemma. All your life you're told your a girl but now when it comes time to like boys, you can't. But it gets shoved in your face every day - you're a girl. That is how I think it must be for gay men when they're first told they should like women. No amount of environmental pressure is going to make them like women.

Some people can lie to themselves until they believe their own lies to be true. I don't think those people are very healthy or happy.

 

When some of you say "Choose to be gay" do you mean Choose to have sex with men or chose to have those sexual feelings towards men?

95% of homosexuals are born gay, and 5% are those who are just slutty (or imprisoned)and like to have sex with anyone just to knock their socks off.

I personally believe you are born either straight or gay. No one in their right mind would choose to be gay over being straight(unless your just slutty and like to get your genitals imerced in someones ass /mouth or vice versa). There is so much more freedom being a straight person in society...who would want to give that up.

 

pkg-

I'd hate to say this, but I'd say that your friend is wrong about the bible. You can check for yourself- just pick up a copy of the bible, and look through the concordance for homosexualilty and the like. It's very black and white. And as for rapes- of course that's wrong, I don't think sexual orientation has anything to do with it.

Plague-
what movies are these? The only case I'm familiar with is GGXX Bridget. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Oh and yeah, what a psycho.

And -

"Some people can lie to themselves until they believe their own lies to be true. I don't think those people are very healthy or happy."

that is exactly what I am saying.

 

There are several possible 'environmental' factors that could cause a 'change in heart' for people other than their parents not raising them well. Let's make up some examples: A boy sees this male friend of his dad help their family out of a big problem (say financial). So it's +1 for love/respect towards men. The same boy sees his mother's female friends be the source of the biggest problems one can imagine, and his subconscious mind calculates a -1 for love/respect towards women. Multiply this for several similar events that MIGHT influence the boy's mind in such ways that changes him gradually without him realizing why.

A messed up scenario? Yeah, maybe. It tended to delve into Freudian thoughts of the influence of parenting/environment, which might be believeable... except that Freud himself wasn't that regular either.

The point is, it seemed to me that you said you can't prove this with genetics, but you say with common sense and rationality. Well you can't prove that parenting/social environment effects (like the simple scenario given above) aren't possible causes either, or can you? We are mainly talking about what causes homosexuality here, rather than how it should be dealt with.

You might be better off asking homosexuals (or asking them to post here?) to give their take on this. They can make it completely anonymous maybe, and just talk seriously about why they are homosexuals. Basically hear it from the source.

 

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Bu_Jassoom said:

There are several possible 'environmental' factors that could cause a 'change in heart' for people other than their parents not raising them well. Let's make up some examples: A boy sees this male friend of his dad help their family out of a big problem (say financial). So it's +1 for love/respect towards men. The same boy sees his mother's female friends be the source of the biggest problems one can imagine, and his subconscious mind calculates a -1 for love/respect towards women. Multiply this for several similar events that MIGHT influence the boy's mind in such ways that changes him gradually without him realizing why.

A messed up scenario? Yeah, maybe. It tended to delve into Freudian thoughts of the influence of parenting/environment, which might be believeable... except that Freud himself wasn't that regular either.


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Yeah, it reminds me of the sitcom scenario where a woman turns to other women for love once she determines "all men are scum." I relate that to the prison sex scenario I described earlier.

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Bu_Jassoom said:
The point is, it seemed to me that you said you can't prove this with genetics, but you say with common sense and rationality. Well you can't prove that parenting/social environment effects (like the simple scenario given above) aren't possible causes either, or can you? We are mainly talking about what causes homosexuality here, rather than how it should be dealt with.


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I see the focus has shifted a little. I'm ok with that. The sharing of theories makes me think more.

I'm around many gay men when I go to dog shows with my wife. The ones I know well enough to discuss homosexuality all say that they've just been that way as long as they can remember. It was never an choice they decided to pursue.

I still believe homosexuality to be genetic and I want people to treat gays with respect to that. Even if I'm wrong, people's lives are their own business. Consensual homosexual relations harm no one and I hope people can believe that. Just as racial slurs are becoming less acceptable everyday, so I hope that use of the word fag follows suit.

 

Urm I call my gay and bisexual friends fag and queer and faggot all the time.
They do the same.
Its like African Americans calling eachother nigger I guess, and allowing select white friends to do the same.

 

I think there's a difference between the word fag used privately as a term of endearment between friends, the use of the word fag between friends within earshot of the public and the use of fag as an insult. Each scenario has different consequences.

A friend of mine said, "It's hard to not feel bad when people use a word that by definition describes who you are to put down someone as harshly as possible. If only people would use 'dumbass' and 'motherfucker' more!"

If I go to a restaurant with my wife and a bunch of her friends from dog showing, the discussion subject is usually dogs. The word bitch is probably spoken 58 times every 7 minutes. Of course bitch means female dog, nothing more. Other patrons sometimes express offense. This doesn't mean I think the use of the word bitch is wrong (I try not to assign subjective value). I just realize that its use could offend the people around us.

I want people to be aware of the consequences of their actions.

 

Re: Homosexuality and Gay Marriage *DELETED*

Post deleted by pkg_inc

 

You have a slight conflict between your posts and the Bible research within them. In the previous post your friend claims that your old Norweigan translation calls gay sex ok (which would've been cool /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif). Now, you write that you've read it's despicable (which is what I expected in the first place).

 

I think the one you picked out is from Leviticus, which has pretty much the harshest of tones regarding. Here are some others, from the new testament:


1st Corinthinans 6:9-11

"Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."


Romans 1:21-28

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.


And here's a nice online bible with a search engine:
http://bible.gospelcom.net

 

well, yeah, kinda. Anyways there's a difference between wise and interested, I'm the latter. It didn't turn out as good as I thought. But I'm not Christian, so I don't know the Bible well enough to know where to look for things. I still have full trust in my friend, though. All I'm saying is that homosexuals are mentioned many places in the Bible, and if you put together the right quotes, it will look the way you want it to.

I'm not saying this to diss you, agios_katastrof. Your arguments are well founded, I can't compete with that.

This doesn't mean I'm giving up, though. If I may, where/when did you first stick to the idea that people aren't born gay? The reason I believe the opposite is (as Plague has mentioned) I never chose to be hetero, and I also believe that they should have the same rights as you and me (as in it they should be allowed to have children etc. etc.).

 

pkg, there is no offense taken. Actually, I'm rather pleasantly surprised about how most people here at VFDC treat topics as such. VFDC is purty cool.

Your friend's error is a common one, and it is largely in part for the reason that you've noted - i.e., where people piece together quotes from here and there, out of context. And also for the reasons that I've noted before, i.e., where people just haven't read the text, or somehow neglects to read the portions that disagrees with them. Christians and non-Christians, both do this.

Well, I personally find homosexual sex repugnant (note: homosexual sex, not homosexual people, BIG difference). And I didn't learn this behaviour, and I think it is generally widespread behaviour. Such widespread behaviour seems pretty natural to me. E.g., you don't have to be taught that murder is wrong- you just know it. Note that I am NOT comparing murder to homosexuality; I just picked it as an example, since murder is pretty black and white with most people. Anyway, I don't ever remember being a part of some gay bashing group or whatever, where I could have learned it. I do think that stuff like racial bigotry IS learned. I don't see racial bigotry in children that haven't been exposed to it. However, negative views towards homosexuality seems innate with most people. And I don't think one being Christian has anything to do with it. Actually, I find far more anti-gay hostility within non-Christian people, than Christians. As said earlier, sincere Christians realize that they are really no better than gay people.

Then I became Christian, and gave the bible a good read, and came across text like the above, which clarified things for me personally. There are parts of the bible that are open to one's intepretation. But there are other parts, which are pretty black and white.

 

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I don't see racial bigotry in children that haven't been exposed to it.

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There are some problems with this statement, I think. Having lived in Japan, I can say that there IS racial bigotry there - but it's very subtle and hardly ever pronounced, save by wacko extremist groups. Nobody ever tells their kids "Africans, Filipinos, Koreans, etc. are scary and dirty", and you probably won't hear it said out loud to you, but there's a few cases in which you can just FEEL a sentiment of apprehension and distaste. Is it taught? Or is it just a natural reaction for a Japanese living in a country with no truly visible minority group?

Certainly not all Japanese are like that, but one who has lived there can't deny bigotry's existance.

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Well, I personally find homosexual sex repugnant

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I don't find gay sex particularly appealing myself (even though the crowd of fangirls I hang out with is somewhat yaoi-inclined), but I can't tell anyone else how to run their intimate lives. Nor should I really care.

(There's also a bit of hypocrisy amongst people - most people who think gay sex is icky just think gay MALE sex is icky. Lesbian sex is a whole different story! LET'S SEE HOTTIE CHIX DYKE OUT LOLz!!!!!!!111)

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Actually, I find far more anti-gay hostility within non-Christian people, than Christians.

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This is surprisingly true, though - barring Fred Phelps and his disgusting ilk. Ever hear of a group called the World Church of the Creator? They're a bunch of wacko white supremacist neo-nazi atheist gay-haters in a bizarre "religion." Scary shit.