Homosexuality and Gay Marriage

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Mirage, would you sleep with Howard Stern?


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I would for several million $. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

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EmpNovA said:



Vote Bush out, and then see what we can get done with this country. Including full support for gay marriage.

[/end insane rant]

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as much as i hate bush, i think kerry is a complete dumbass. does anyone here watch comedy central, THE chapelle show??? Chapelle played out George bush (or should i say, "the black bush" lol), anywayz, they discussed a lot of arguments like these (with humor and sarcasm)

One of the skits goes like this_(atleast from the best of my knowledge)

Reporter: Is it true the forces have not been able to locate any indication of the production of weapons of mass destruction in iraq, mr. president?

The Black Bush: Weapons, weapons!, I don't have time for that kinda shit, ... listen to me you people, GAY PEOPLE ARE GETTIN' MARRIED!!! GAY peOplE

I know it doesn't sound too good here, but it was great when acted out.


My opinion on this matter is simple, - gay people are being prosecuted by strict religious authorities, because, unlike normal ppl, they are just in it for the "self enjoyment". Are they using it as a means of human reproduction, no.

 

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kungfusmurf said:

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Mirage, would you sleep with Howard Stern?


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I would for several million $. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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You, smurf, are a prostitute! Whoring out your VF skill! Its degrading!

 

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Mysterious_Red said:
I know it doesn't sound too good here, but it was great when acted out.

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it sure was!

 

I'm Wayne Brady BITCH!

Empnova: A little too overzealous with your arguement. Don't swear at people and call them Nazis if you don't know them.

I don't want to sound rude, but by being so "ani-left" and crazy yelling about how one side is so horrible... you're just doing the same thing all the right wingers are doing: fervantly believing in something because it's that sides "dogma". If you keep an open mind and a level head when you argue, you'll sound a lot more reputable.

DrunkenCat: Kids that are raised by a single mother have no obvious male role model either. The vice versa also exists. As long as two loving parents, irregardless of the gender, raise a child with an open mind and good moral values, there's nothing wrong with it.

Take, for example, a very extreme christian family that from day one teaches the children to reject people who aren't christian. Is that similar to 2 homosexual parents that teach their child to accept homosexual people in anyway? As long as there are loving parents there shouldn't be a problem.

Mirage:

I can understand that in China's case, most of the people are the same. Also in Japan, everyone is homogenious. People have the same beliefs, expectations, which leads to a little less conflict. That's why it isn't surprising, or necessarily wrong, for the chinese culture to reject homosexuality. There aren't that many homosexuals in china, after all.

However, the United States is filled with many many different types of people, especially in the coastal states. These people have different points of view, different morals and mores, but in America, the "great big melting pot", they should all be respected.

Culturally, the US needs to adapt and change with respect to those people in it, as long as the rights of people don't interfere with other people's rights.

Children's rights are important, but again, a child who's three has no choice of choosing gay parents, but he also has no choice of being raised christian(or any other religion), or a choice about the way they are raised.

 

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That's why it isn't surprising, or necessarily wrong, for the chinese culture to reject homosexuality. There aren't that many homosexuals in china, after all.

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Yo Dude, you're really talking out of your ass right now since I'd highly doubt you know anything about China and the degree of Gayness that comes with the culture. I mean for God sake half of the Chinese Pop Stars are fucking GAY up the Ass. And if you're still not convince that China has a equal amount of Gay people just as much as the rest of the world. Take Shang for example, he probably didn't show his Gayness until he came to America and discovered his gay lust Jerky, enuff said.

Lastly about it not being wrong for Chinese Culture to reject homosexuality. Then Chinese people are basically in denial of what part of their society can really contribute to their development than, Oh well.

 

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Kids that are raised by a single mother have no obvious male role model either. The vice versa also exists. As long as two loving parents, irregardless of the gender, raise a child with an open mind and good moral values, there's nothing wrong with it.

[/ QUOTE ] I mostly agree with what you have said. My concern is that a child is going to have a conflict between their instinct as a male/female and the example that their parents are setting. In a situation where the parents are the same gender as the child the child simply may not learn as easily how men and women interact by not having an example in their household.

Also like to add that having two loving, gay parents would be on the bottom of the list as far as bad environments for children to grow up in. I believe that having a single parent would be worse than having gay parents. Of course it would be alot better than having abusive parents. I believe that gay parents can raise a healthy child; I'm not saying that gay parents = screwed up childhood. The same is to be said of a single parent. But I believe it's valid concern that should be thought about if a homosexual couple is thinking of having a child.

 

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DrunkenCat said:

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Kids that are raised by a single mother have no obvious male role model either. The vice versa also exists. As long as two loving parents, irregardless of the gender, raise a child with an open mind and good moral values, there's nothing wrong with it.

[/ QUOTE ] I mostly agree with what you have said. My concern is that a child is going to have a conflict between their instinct as a male/female and the example that their parents are setting. In a situation where the parents are the same gender as the child the child simply may not learn as easily how men and women interact by not having an example in their household.

Also like to add that having two loving, gay parents would be on the bottom of the list as far as bad environments for children to grow up in. I believe that having a single parent would be worse than having gay parents. Of course it would be alot better than having abusive parents. I believe that gay parents can raise a healthy child; I'm not saying that gay parents = screwed up childhood. The same is to be said of a single parent. But I believe it's valid concern that should be thought about if a homosexual couple is thinking of having a child.

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Well I see that you are basically saying that there should be concerns regarding if it's feasable for a homosexual couple to be capable of producing a straight and heterosexual adult, right?

So why is it that we are not concerned with the heterosexual couples that end up producing homosexual children?

The agrument is that homosexual couples will raise gay kids..that's like saying all straight couples will raise straight kids. Makes no sense to me considering that the majority of homosexual people in the first place were obviously born from a man and a woman in a heterosexual relationship.

I know a friend who claims that his uncle knew he was a homosexual from early middle school (it's hard for me to give example that show what I'm trying to prove becuase I don't know any homosexuals on a personal level unfortunately). From what he told me, his parents and pretty much everyone else in his family where very traditional heterosexuals (meaning they weren't religious nor sexually devient, they just practiced what most people consider to be the standard heterosexual mating behaivors).

His claim to me was that his uncle had never been exposed to any kind of sexual oddities other than traditional heterosexual acts...so how is it that he knew he was a homosexual from age 12 (I don't know the actual age but it's easier to understand if I provide an age right)?

Howard Stern had a woman on last week that had two lesbian parents since she could remember being raised, and she grew up to be completely heterosexual, and she practices sexual acts that would even be acceptable by many politicians skewed values. How is it that a girl who was raised by two lesbian women can turn out to be an average heterosexual? How is it that someone never exposed to any form of sexual deviency can realize that he is homsexual at such a young age?

While it's hard for many of us to speak about this due to only experiencing these things on a third hand basis, I feel that I have a pretty decent grasp about the concepts being discussed here (as well as most others on this thread from what I can tell). If any part of my post is unclear, ask away.
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KTallguy said:
Empnova: A little too overzealous with your arguement. Don't swear at people and call them Nazis if you don't know them.


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Yeah oops, sorry about those. I guess I should warn you about my tendceny to become insanely pissed off about the 'politics' of gay marriage....you're lucky this thread isn't about abortion or free speech or else I'd be ten times worse /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

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Well I see that you are basically saying that there should be concerns regarding if it's feasable for a homosexual couple to be capable of producing a straight and heterosexual adult, right?

[/ QUOTE ] I wasn't trying to say this. I don't believe that being surrounded by gay people makes you gay. My point is if a female child is bought up by male parents who is she going to relate to as a female? I relate alot more to my father than my mother - having a father/son relationship is important to me. I think having a role model helps you mature. Having a role model who is there all the time (such as a parent) sets an example that you can follow for your own life.

 

Mirage, your original fault with gay-parent adoption was the feelings of the children, correct? I will use GodEater's example of poor children in a slightly different way. Ask the child(ren) of poor parents if they would rather if their parents were rich. The answer would most likely be yes. I know I would have prefered my family to have been better off than it was. Ask the child(ren) (especially teenagers, who you claim would be able to make a more rational decision) of gay parents if they would rather their parents were straight. The answer is most often "What would it matter?" I know, I have asked this question personally. When asked "Would you trade your parents for a straight couple?", these kids were offended and rightly so. Would you trade your parents in for a richer couple? a prettier couple? a happier couple? Of course not. The notion is offensive and thoughtless. But really, who doesn't want rich, happy, pretty, perhaps even straight parents? We all do, at least for the first three. However, given a choice, only children from abusive homes would trade up and even then children fight when taken away by social services. Love is love regardless of origin / condition / rationality. I'm sorry that you have refused to allow gay people to love you (this is really what you are saying) I cannot express how loving a person who has fully accepted themselves can be. How many depressed, socially awkard, maladjusted openly gay people do you know? I doubt very many. And besides, who here has never felt that their parents shouldn't have been allowed to have children? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I relate alot more to my father than my mother

I relate more to my mother becuase that's who I grew up with...I didn't turn out very feminine at all (by today's standards) from what I've been told by peers.

having a father/son relationship is important to me

Well this thread isn't about you, and what you prefers, becuase what your like is completely different from what someone else would. It also sounds like you came from a place of relative privelege, compared to chilren in foster care/shelters.

I think having a role model helps you mature. Having a role model who is there all the time (such as a parent) sets an example that you can follow for your own life.

So explain to me why the role model has to be a parent of the same sex..becuase that is exactly what you are saying in your post.

If someone can have such a role model like you say, what difference does it make what sex they are. Maybe people aren't that insecure with their sexuality and masculinity such as you might have been, and actually have the abilities to manage not having a paternal influence in their life and commonly identifying with their mothers (assuming the subject is a male of course).

 

Your thinking has fallacies.

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I wasn't trying to say this. I don't believe that being surrounded by gay people makes you gay. My point is if a female child is bought up by male parents who is she going to relate to as a female?

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a. You're going into preconcieved notions of masculinity/feminity here. Girls apparently need mommy as a role model to learn to be properly GIRLY, so they too can pop out babies and be walking around the kitchen barefoot at age 30. And LORD FORBID our boys turn into sensitive wussies.
b. There's lots of homes already where a "same gender role model" would be missing - we've already brought up families with a single mother in the states, but what about the "absentee father" syndrome in Japan (I read a long essay last semester about how Japanese males tend to indentify much more strongly with the mother, and its sociological implications - thought it mostly had to do with how Japanese people are group-oriented and put a lot of reliance upon each other, like a mother/child relationship.). These still manage to produce plenty of perfectly normal people. How would a gay household be so different?

And of course, what if one of a boy's two mothers is a total butch, and a girl's daddy a drag queen? ^^

 

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Zero-chan said:
These still manage to produce plenty of perfectly <font color="yellow">normal</font> people. How would a gay household be so different?

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I completely agree 100% with your post, but the problem is how people identify normal. And also, most people who are against Gay Marriage will say this to your second sentence above quoted, "a gay household is already different."

Now you and I are of course able to look beyond that and realize that most anti-Gay Marriage agruments aren't soundly based, but those who ultimately decide on that issue are not concerned with that.

The point is, no matter how "normal" a child turns out (who's raised by two homosexual parents), someone who's outside of that relationship can say "well your child is obviously different from other children becuase his parents are gay."

And that's true...but all people are different, it's just a natural law that we need to accept already. Everyone turns out different, people can grow up to be gay, more feminime, more masculine, cross-dressers, sexual devients, and many more things. And all of those people all came from straight families at one point or another. After all, it takes two straight people to birth a gay person, right?

So did the straight parents make a wrong turn raising there kid to be gay? Is the gay person wrong if they knew they were gay from a young age with no outside influence to tell them of their sexual preference? Is the gay person wrong if they on their own free will decided one day that they wanted to be gay?

The only people wrong here and the ones who are limiting your rights. If you can't see that Bush is a complete Christian Right supporter, I hope you don't vote this time around.

 

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EmpNovA said:

DrunkenCat Said: having a father/son relationship is important to me

Well this thread isn't about you, and what you prefers, becuase what your like is completely different from what someone else would. It also sounds like you came from a place of relative privelege, compared to chilren in foster care/shelters.


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I like your comments in this thread but be careful - this thread is about what he thinks and prefers as much as it is about what you and I think and prefer. When DrunkenCat says "x is important to me" and it refers to his life experience - you can't really discredit it as garbage. You may disagree - but it doesn't mean he's wrong - he's talking about his own life. Maybe he's lying, but probably not. He's not saying it's right for everyone, or the way it HAS to be for someone to have a pleasant life.

also...

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EmpNovA said:
After all, it takes two straight people to birth a gay person, right?


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I disagree. It takes an inseminated women to birth a gay person. Whether insemination was artificial, natural by a straight man, natural by a gay man. Maybe the woman could be gay. Hard to say.

 

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Plague said:
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EmpNovA said:
After all, it takes two straight people to birth a gay person, right?


[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. It takes an inseminated women to birth a gay person. Whether insemination was artificial, natural by a straight man, natural by a gay man. Maybe the woman could be gay. Hard to say.

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There have been gay people throughout the begining of modern man right, and those homosexuals had to have some point come from heterosexual beings.

You are thinking of the modern sense, I like to talk about this regardless of time period becuase you don't have to factor in things like artificial insemination, becuase going back to ancient Roman times and even beyond that, they didn't have artificial insemination.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread...but it's nearly impossible to discuss the origins of homosexuality without saying the fact that all beings are born bisexual. Animals, humans, all sexual beings are born bisexual.

If you need some graphic proof google for it, I don't feel the need to describe graphic sex acts unless there's a huge want for it.

 

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EmpNovA said:

I don't want to sidetrack this thread...but it's nearly impossible to discuss the origins of homosexuality without saying the fact that all beings are born bisexual. Animals, humans, all sexual beings are born bisexual.

If you need some graphic proof google for it, I don't feel the need to describe graphic sex acts unless there's a huge want for it.

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Sorry, all beings born bi-sexual? Post the links because I don't want to wade through garbage to find some proof.

 

I think *maybe* EmpNova meant to say that we are all born CAPABLE of bisexuality.

 

I think Vanessa players named Chuck are very capable of bi-sexuality.

 

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BLooDBLaZe said:

I think Vanessa players named Chuck are very capable of bi-sexuality.

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Only with you, you sexy beast.

 

OMG!


I'LL BE UP THERE THIS WEEKEND THEN!