How to deal with Chicken Play

In this post there's some good advice and some real bad advice but what usually works it to go ultra agresive or fight fire with fire and go ultra machi but not in between the two.

 

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Should we take what you say a bit further and say that everybody should play to be flashy and not win???

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Nope. Just want to make the point because there is a distinction to be made between whining/bitching about machi and expressing one's displeasure with the style.

Heidi's post was primarily to ask for tips on how to deal with machi. There is an expression of annoyance/frustration, but nothing to the degree that I would consider to be whiny or entirely illegitimate.

To add a personal comment - I find it curious - those who have chosen to respond "stop your moaning and adapt" rather than address the post on its own terms. Strikes me as more of a comment on the person responding than anything else.

-Jason

 

hmm, machi eh? ... certainly one that gets the better of me, LOL. i gotta learn how to play slow and boring too now! /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Shang - i love u too! My sig says it all! /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

Hi, I'm playing Evo here, so any sort of advice in relation to MT style is 99% useless.
Not to mention several redone animations, like which have different animations, and thus, different frame stats (which are hugely, hugely overrated anyway).

 

read thread, "I Love Shang" too! =P

And zero, frames aren't overrated, if thats what you meant to say. later.

 

Good thinking, CreeD0. But here's a few things to remember:

DS Vanessa has the slowest jab in the game, almost elbow class. OS is on par with the other charas.
DS Cut Upper has changed slightly (new animation, no additional P followup). OS is like the original DS Cut Upper.

I think ("tachi-P" as it's called here) might work well as an elbow substitute but it seems a bit risky. Perhaps is better in DS for sabaki properties, as it will eat low punches.

But for OS... hirm.
There is a kick in OS that is done with , and floats on counter, leading to happy combo fun time. I haven't really tried using it much but I think it might be worth investigating. Something makes me think it might be too slow/easily blocked, but I'll just have to try and find out.

 

to everyone:

my word is the final one.....(but its just my opinion anyway hehe)

machi = totally legal, totally boring, it just means you are good at winning using that style.

IMO, a top player is one that wins his matches about 90% without resorting to such tactics. if any of you can win lots of matches in a flashy manner then you are a true vf top player. i mean, its a fighting game, you supposed to fight and make it look like a kung fu movie (even yu suzuky said that was one of his goals in making vf, so the fight can be like a kung fu flick, dunno where i read that). much props for all those that make the fight scene interesting and actually fun to watch. about the point of the player who wins most is the better player.....hmm...this a very touchy subject that has no real answer, IMO if the player is winning using machi tactics all the time that just means he mastered the art of patience, the other person who wants to see a nice flowing game is thinking "i want to see something cool NOW damm it!!! " gets desperate for this and loses. ultimately we would all want a game that machi cannot be achieved but this my friends, will never happen, machi will always exist.......unless they make a game where you can use a move one time and thats it /versus/images/icons/wink.gif.

this was my fucking opinion, dont like it? oh wait i got something in my pocket i want to show you.....(sal reaches for pocket then takes out his hand to show his middle finger)

"win beautifully or dont win at all" should be my sig

 

It's not a beauty contest, it's a fight.

 

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this was my fucking opinion, dont like it? oh wait i got something in my pocket i want to show you.....(sal reaches for pocket then takes out his hand to show his middle finger)

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You certainly have a way with words, Sal. Somehow, your perfectly valid thoughts on machi play were overshadowed by your ability to make yourself look like a nine-year-old. Well done.

 

I thought it was a pretty legit statement to be honest, and well put.

Just b/c someone beats you doesn't mean they're better than you.

Zero--have you thought about playing w/ other characters to get a feel for them?

 

weighing in

what a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in Faculties...ah fuck it, I need a drink.

Machi is Machi. Neither good nor bad. People who are paying for their games (in money or time) might feel cheated when coming across a machi player but since good Virtua Fighting is all about controlling and limiting your opponents options it is a valid if not necessary technique. Considering the fact that most people tend to agree that you can only deal with machi by being machi the player that is the mariachi machi chachi succeeds in controlling his opponent.

Machi certainly means a reduction for both characters and it can be boring to watch. This fight between Wolf and Kage is excruciating for me to watch and I often reflect that as much as a waste of my time playing a video game can be watching one where little happens is worse. shudder.

Actually, upon further reflection, the fight is pretty interesting because Segaru starts by being aggressive and eventually has to settle down and start doing half dashes, small G-cancelled crouch dashes, looking for a whiff, baiting with motion rather than moves. By the end he's regained momentum and can succesfully stay on the attacking side. It shows great evolution and adaptation.

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Zero, it has all pretty much been said but it bears repeating. Choose your moves carefully. jab, low punch, uncounterable mid moves and throws (high or low) are your best bet. feinting with standing kick and throwing or flowing into a mid level move (we used to call this the Hong Kong Twitch) are both good options.

Basically minimize, minimize, minimize. You can't afford to screw up and if you're new to playing machi, chances are you will before your oppoennt does but eventually you can get good at it. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It will certainly give you more options in future fights.

GE
<font color="green">if you stand by the river long enough you will watch the bodies of your enemies float by </font color>

 

Would anybody consider Muhammed Ali to be a "chicken" because he floated away from retaliation after doing his damage? I find it hard to believe folks are whining about fight tactics like this. That's just the way some people like to handle their fights. To solve the problem, I'd think you have to deal with the opp. when they come in, because sooner or later they have to. I don't see this playing style as any more boring than your typical crouch, low-Punch all day thrower type. Half the point of the game here is defense, and CDing all over the ring is one way to do it.

 

You're Vanessa! She's great at beating machi (at least in Version B/C). At the very least, just keep and if guarded, reverse nitaku.

 

llan, seems you were the only one that didnt get the joke man, lighten up dude, sorry if it wasnt funny /versus/images/icons/wink.gif .

and to godeater....

"Considering the fact that most people tend to agree that you can only deal with machi by being machi the player that is the mariachi machi chachi succeeds in controlling his opponent. "

excellent paragraph there! that was basically what i was trying to say.

 

in that video was there some sort of strategy to the obsessive crouching back dashes? I dont really see the point in doing it so much, especially when your opponent is all the way across the ring...

 

I'm glad you took the time to reflect on that match GE.

For those that don't know, that is a great battle between Kage and Wolf. If you can't figure out what's going on, then I suggest getting better at VF. Please do not call this match boring or machi. This isn't meant to be mass market entertainment like wrestling or something, it's for people that do "get it". I bet there are only a handful on VFDC that can watch this fight and understand what's happening. If you're not one of those people, try to refrain from the need to sound important. Just because you don't get it, that doesn't mean that it's not there.... That is real VF being played by 2 really good players. Segirl shows how strong he is in the end.

 

Part of it is just force of habit, mostly it's just making sure you get exactly as far away as you'd like to be to continue fighting.

Kage's strength (this kage's strength, for this fight) is in his ability to poke safely from long range and then do the multiple backwards crouch dashes to maintain that range. He didn't want any part of segaru's closeup game. It might seem weird to say that his ideal range is further than the range of his longest range pokes like sidekick or K+G, but the idea is that his pokes will
A. hit if Wolf does an attack or crouch dash into that space or
B: if the pokes whiff, he's so far away that wolf's only decent long-range counterattacks such as a sidekick are outdistanced by the fast backwards crouch dash.

That's why moves like kage's bb+K+G that are risky on paper aren't always punished heavily in reality, because of the spacing he kept with multiple reverse crouch dashing.