I'm thinking Lion might be the best.

You can't use Chibita to set the standard -- he's definitely going against the stream using Lion. Watch the Bay Cup tournaments -- or any tournament. You're lucky to see 2% Lion usage.

There are plenty of people out there winning as much (although w/ not as good of a win ratio) with Kage, Vanessa, and all the characters you mentioned. SPecifically, Kyasao's Kage, and Tokyo Megane's Vanessa.

I'd say that Vanessa comes out in high-level fights a bit more than Lion, and Kage much more than Lion. The most represented is obviously Lau, Jacky, & Akira, who I would say are the strongest in the game.

 

Like GP and others have said you can't make Chibita Lion's saving grace. Chibita's just nuts and it wouldn't really matter who he put his time into because he's just that sick a player. The guy's Lion spends like 40% of the match with his back to you and he's the only player on video that uses wall moves without being killed. Yes, Lion is a good character (just like everyone on VF) but if you sit down and do the math you'll probably see characters that have advantages over him.

 

If only 2% use Lion, then how can we tell how good the character is if more people aren't willing to play him? Jacky and Lau are the most popular, and so that automatically makes them seem the best, cause more people play them and hence, they win more tournaments than anyone else. See somethings off here. I think people just have something against the character Lion, and that's why no one really plays him. He's just not a popular guy to play for some reason. But that doesn't mean he's not good just cause the majority doesn't play him. It just means people are so limited that they stick with the most popular guys who are already established as being real good. If more people were into Lion and made him their favorite character, I bet Lion would get more respect.

I can see how someone can say Jacky and Lau are above Lion because they dish out more damage than he does with relative ease, but people need to stop blaming the character when they lose to those guys (blaming Lion) and start figuring out a way around it.

And the way I see it, if someone like Chibita could win against those top guys using Lion, why would you just brush it off as a fluke that he's some freak of nature doing the impossible, and not try to accomplish what he has done. Which is taking Lion and figuring out that he's a really good character and he can take out anyone if you really know what you're doing. I wouldn't dream of saying to myself, "I really like using Lion, but I can't win against these guys using Jacky or Lau. I know this guy named Chibita could beat them using my character, but I could never be as good as he is with Lion so I'll just stop using this character and try someone more popular and who's easier to learn." Cause that's what it seems a lot of you guys are saying. You know Lion can beat out any one because Chibita has proved that, but for some reason, you don't want to learn him and you just want to stick with the reasoning that Chibita has done something that isn't realistic to do yourself. It is realistic, but you have to work for it, just like Chibita does. He works for it, and he knows his Lion isn't really at a disadvantage because he has perfected his style well enough to even things out.

I admit Jacky and Lau are way too easy to learn and they take off way too much damage for being so easy to learn, and that Lion isn't up to their level since he doesn't have quick combos like them, he isn't as easy to learn as them, and he isn't as powerful as them. But, even with all those things against Lion from the start, he still can beat them and if you watch Chibita play, you'll see how. Chibita has shown us the way, but people refuse to pay attention.

I wonder what's Chibitas thoughts are about all this Lion talk. He could straighten things out.

 

I think if there's less Lions in major high-level tourneys, it's
probably for the same reason there's less Shuns, less Aois, and
so on...everybody wants to win with power, but few want to think
their way through a match. I don't think there's anything wrong
with being an external monster, but there's a bit more introspection
with characters who require more effort. If Kage wasn't so damned
cool-looking, he'd probably be just as little used as Lion in major
play. But Kage IS cool, and everybody wants to be a cool ass-kicking
Kage, so they put in that extra effort to learn the complicated moves
and timing, and they turn Kage into a nasty mother. I'm just not going
to say that Lion and Aoi can't win major tournaments, or Lei or Shun...I mean, I'm
thinking the game has enough depth that the tools are there for any
character to be unstoppable. Everybody dismisses Jeffrey as flotsam, but
if somebody played that guy right, he'd be a killer. It's not about character so much
as it is learning VF, where you have to be, what you have to be doing, and how
fast you can implement your attack and defense. Lion, like all the characters, is
solid in what he does best: he's fast, he's compact and defensive and can wind his way
around the ring as well as Shun, and he can dish out good damage. Lion's freakish
insect fighting style and what Gaijinpunch calls his "goofy-ass Mantis fist" make him fun
to play. And it's true: once you play him, his annoying voice just doesn't bother you any
more.

 

Also, let me just clarify something that may be taken wrong. When I say Lion is "top tier", I mean something different then what top tier has usually meant. Top tier usually means a character is just too powerful and they really should of weakened some part of him/her to make them equal to everyone else. Like Sagat and Blanka is top tier in CvS2 because they take off way too much damage with their regular normal moves and because of their reach. Kage was top tier in VF3 because his elbow was way too powerful, and I believe Akira was also top tier in VF3 because of his power and combos and priority with his elbows. But I say Lion is top tier for a different reason. He has no high damage move/combo, or any one move that they should weaken like I think Jacky and Lau have, but just his style of play makes him a top tier character because he's so fast and mobile, he has a lot of highs and lows, he has great guessing games, he has great pokes and throws, and he has excellent priority and wake up games. All these things put together make him a top tier character, IMO. Jacky and Lau are top tier for different reasons, though, because of their power/combos and their ease of use. Lion is like Ryu in CvS2. If you see some of the Japanese players play Ryu, you'll see he can take out any Sagat or Blanka player, as well as any one else in the game.

So when someone says Jacky and Lau are way too powerful and they are better than Lion for that reason, I only agree with the part that Jacky and Lau are way too powerful, but as for Lion not able to compete against them, that's what I disagree with.

I'm curious, If I could play you guys and my Lion could beat your top Jacky and Lau players, would that change your mind about how strong Lion is?

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"I really like using Lion, but I can't win against these guys using Jacky or Lau. I know this guy named Chibita could beat them using my character, but I could never be as good as he is with Lion so I'll just stop using this character and try someone more popular and who's easier to learn." Cause that's what it seems a lot of you guys are saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not even close to anything anyone in this thread was saying. That you've gleaned this from 4 pages of responses is... well... i won't go into what it is, in the interest of keeping this from becoming a flame war.

Let's try the logical approach first:

Ostensibly, there is something called "tiers" which accurately separate one character from another based on strength and win potential. If we assume that there are some characters that belong in the top tiers and that the rest don't, then we pick the top characters based not on popularity (which would defeat the whole purpose of the tier system) but based on those criteria listed above.

The simple fact is that no one here has even suggested that Lion "sucks" or whatever, and the tier system is not based on popularity or ease of use If it were, believe me, Akira wouldn't be there...

Ah, what's the use? The fact that all this escapes you only affirms my belief that there are two kinds of people. You can guess which they are... actually, you probably can't.

Finally, for you to imply that characters such as Akira don't require thought to win consistently is so freaking ignorant... i promised my self i wouldn't do this. It's not accurate, buddy; simple as that. Honestly, i don't even know why i responded to this; the sheer level of idiocy in the last two posts is staggering.

Dammit, i did it anyway. Please forgive the tone of my passage, but these last two posts really rubbed me the wrong way.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I wonder what's Chibitas thoughts are about all this Lion talk. He could straighten things out

[/ QUOTE ]

you know i think he'd say its not in the character but the players skill IMO, any charcater in VF has the potential, the moves, the throws, but how good the character is really depends on the player (the one using the character), and its really not about popularity either, the reason i say so is because you really can't prove who's good and who's not if no one uses them, for example, how can you know if Lei Fei is weak or strong if no one uses him, hence 2% Lion users wont be enough to determine wether or not he's weak or strong, while most are using Jacky, Lau, Akira, i'd say roughly 20% for each of them (20% jacky users, 20% Lau, 20% Akira users), and then the other charcters take the rest of the character usage percentage, so since these 3 charcters take most of the usage percentage, it makes it easier in determining, wether they're strong or weak, and this is due to the fact that many users have utilized Jacky,Lau, & Akira's potential in different ways, and show much chance of winning or show at least a 50/50 chance. just my opinion though. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

I think you're jumping to conclusions. I had a 60% ratio w/ Lion on VF4 Ver. C in the arcades, with over 1000 wins. I beat my fair share of Lau's & Jacky's. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm not saying that it's rarely done. I *AM* saying (or agreeing to more or less) there are few players that have Lion as their main character, in respect to Jacky, Lau, or Akira. As such, I think your point about people not knowing his power b/c he's unplayed is invalid. Plenty of people play him, but it takes more mistakes for Lion to win that someone that can float your ass to high heaven.

Go play a Jacky that's really good at ducking low -- you'll likely lose every time b/c he'll either float you or beat knuckle you to death.

Don't take everything at the surface. My main charater is pretty much a tie between Lion & Aoi, but I favor Aoi more b/c I get so sick of people using Lau's & Jacky's elbows for 80% of a match, so I just reverse them, and take that bullshit out of the match.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
That's not even close to anything anyone in this thread was saying. That you've gleaned this from 4 pages of responses is... well... i won't go into what it is, in the interest of keeping this from becoming a flame war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read all the post here? Look back and you'll see that there's quite a few who say Lau and Jacky have an advantage over Lion, and one even says he can't beat the top Jacky and Lau players of his area with Lion because those two characters have an advantage over him. So how am I way off base here?


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The simple fact is that no one here has even suggested that Lion "sucks" or whatever, and the tier system is not based on popularity or ease of use If it were, believe me, Akira wouldn't be there...

[/ QUOTE ]

They're not saying he sucks, but they're saying he can't compete against top level players who play Lau and Jacky at a consistent level. And that's wrong, IMO.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Ah, what's the use? The fact that all this escapes you only affirms my belief that there are two kinds of people. You can guess which they are... actually, you probably can't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I can't figure out what you mean. Why don't you say it.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Finally, for you to imply that characters such as Akira don't require thought to win consistently is so freaking ignorant... i promised my self i wouldn't do this. It's not accurate, buddy; simple as that. Honestly, i don't even know why i responded to this; the sheer level of idiocy in the last two posts is staggering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you're making stuff up or your reading things that aren't there because I never once said or implied Akira takes little to no skill to use. He's the most complex character ever created and I have no idea where you got that I think he's a simple character to play.

So what are geting all worked over about? Almost everything you accuse me of saying is just plain wrong. You need to calm down a bit there and stop getting all riled up over a video game.

GaijinPunch: Ok, let's say I play a Jacky player who ducks all day (which my brother does), Lion has plenty of options for people who do that. I'm saying he isn't at a disadvantage to the point where you have to stop playing the character to win. You obviously had to stop using Lion against those guys and play someone else because you couldn't beat them with him. Now I really don't want to insult any one here, but is that the characters fault or your fault for not overcoming that problem?

 

modestmouse i think your reply goes out to Aeon not me. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

anyways i agree that if you can't beat a jacky user who ducks all day, or beat knuckle all the time, its more of the others fault for not trying to figure a way to beat that certain tactic, but all in all, no matter how strong a character may get, in the hands of someone less skilled the character will still be considered weak, whereas a weak character in the hands of a master player can be considered strong, as i've stated before all the character has is potential, NOT greatness, greatness comes from the person who uses the character, a characters weakness is due to the players inabiity to bring out the charcters potential, while a charcters strength is due to a person who can properly manipulate the characters potential and probably take it to an extreme level, chibita would be a great example, since he is so good in tapping into the characters potential, the charcter tends to look very strong, and obviously shows a lot of effective movements, so to simply say there's no resolve to this issue, coz its not the character that should be measured but the player, which is why there's character prefferance, modest likes lion since he used him so effectively in battle, same goes for GP he used Aoi because he finds her easier in tems of winning, this arguement really wont determine anything, and i'm sure i explained the reasons already, peace /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />

GaijinPunch: You obviously had to stop using Lion against those guys and play someone else because you couldn't beat them with him. Now I really don't want to insult any one here...


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you pretty much just did, yeah? I learn other characters to enjoy the game. I used Lion up to the last day Version C was in the arcades, and I used him first during the Evo beta tests. I like using Aoi on Jacky & Lau b/c I like doing reversals, and damn near any Jacky or Lau is going to abuse - which is where Aoi steps in and does her magic.

Now, I'm going to say this again, and hopefully the air will at least swirl around a couple of times before exiting through the other ear.

I like Lion, he's a great character. I stomp ass with him on a regular. I just beat a Jacky 2-0 an hour ago. I beat Jacky's that out-rank me quite a bit. I also beat Lion's that outrank me quite a bit. However I *DO* think that Lau & Jacky have an edge on him, mainly for their elbows, just like Aoi's got an edge on Lei Fei, due to his readability. A ducking Jacky can be dealt with, but much more slowly than a ducking Lion. Beat knuckle combo on a ducking Lion is a LOT more damage than Lion's only mid-starting floater combo, which is ++. Also, that only works on counter.

Just b/c one character has an edge on someone doesn't mean you can't beat them. I tore up an Aoi on Evo yesterday that was 4 ranks higher than me with Lei Fei. Aoi DEFINITELY has an advantage on Lei Fei as she can reverse ALL of his moves, and it's not hard to tell what's coming next. I still punished him twice in a row though. I just think that it takes a more ice-cold game in such a match.

Just for the record, and hopefully more baseless flames, I'll post my 'edge' list of some fights I tend to have problems with.

LION:
-----
I give the edge to Jacky & Lau -- b/c of elbows, and both have long-distance combos. Lion does not. I've grown quite accustomed to Lau, as there's so damn many of them, and is throw counterable in Evo!

SHUN:
-----
Edge goes to Vanessa and Wolf as they seem to be the most affective in sobering him up. 2nd place goes to Akira, as that one open-palmed punch of his takes off drinks, and you can do it a few times after Shun has lost a round. 3rd would be Pai, as she's got a lot of range, and is REALLY quick, making it hard to throw her, and in turn, not getting many drinks. Chowan on her isn't the easiest thing either.

Aoi:
----
Edge goes to Wolf, Akira, & Jeffry -- all three have many non-reversable attacks.

Lei Fei:
-------
Edge goes first to Akira, as his shoulder isn't subject to his Sabaki attacks. Also doesn't have a lot of punches that IN stance will reverse. Next goes to Aoi, b/c she can reverse a lot of his moves, and he's easy to read. Also destroys a lot of his stances.

On that note, I've beaten all of those characters on many non-consecutive occasions. But I'm the first to admit -- it's not accident. It takes work.

 

You are right death_raven and you probably just put an end to this whole debate. Gee, thanks. (naw...j/k)

But first, GP, I confused you with Jason Cha, and between the two of you I got that one stopped playing Lion against the Lau and Jackys in his area because he couldn't beat them. If this wasn't you, I'm sorry for replying to you. But I got out that the reason they stopped playing was because Lion is at a disadvantage against those guys, and my whole point these last few post has been that he isn't at a disadvantage, or even if he is, it's not a disadvantage that can't be overcome.

My 2nd favorite character to play is Wolf, yet I have a hard time beating Lau players with him. Now, I know I said earlier that Wolf has a hard time against Lau, but I really shouldn't of said that. Just because I find it hard to beat Lau players doesn't mean others might find it hard, so I was wrong in assuming Lau has an advantage over Wolf since I don't represent everyone. For all I know, there's a ton of tactics to use against Lau players that I just haven't found yet, so for me to say Wolf sucks against Lau is just wrong, I should be saying "I suck against Lau", because that's really the truth of the matter.

And the point is, a Wolf player could just have easily been in my position and told me it's easy for him to win against Lau, and I could be in my debaters position in saying top Lau players would whoop the floor with Wolf players because the match is in Lau's favor. But that would be wrong on my part to say that because it's not a fact. See what I'm getting at?

Also, I take back saying that Lion is a top character because it does really depend on the person playing. It really is hard to measure who's a top character and who isn't in this game, so I was wrong in assuming he's top over some other characters who I have no real knowledge of.

So that's my view of the whole thing. Let's reiterate and keep this as simple as possible.

1) I think Lion has potential to be a top player.
2) Other characters might have an "edge" over Lion, but it's nothing that can't be overcome.
3) Just because someone finds Lion has a disadvantage against a certain character, doesn't make that a fact.
4) There's way too much tactics in this game to assume who's top characters and who isn't. Right now it's all opinion.
5) I'm sorry I offended some people.
6) Chibita plays Lion and he's the best /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
7) Jacky and Lau are too powerful compared to how easy they are to learn.
8) This debate isn't as fun as playing VF 4 against other people. That's were all debates ends. /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

So, no hard feelings.

 

Wait a second Lei Fei is the only one I don't like.I like Lion and others like Jacky,Sarah,Lau,Kage,Akira,Wolf and Vannessa.So stop saying that I say I hate everyone I don't!

 

Nice sum up --

I think more than the person playing Lion it's more the person you're playing with. It's been my personal experience (like today) that if the player (no matter who the character) doesn't tech roll, a lot of your game is taken away, unfortunately. If you don't get your pounce or down attack in fast, you'll whiff as well, which isn't too fun.

Zero: Lei Fei rocks - he's really fun to play.

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
But first, GP, I confused you with Jason Cha, and between the two of you I got that one stopped playing Lion against the Lau and Jackys in his area because he couldn't beat them. If this wasn't you, I'm sorry for replying to you. But I got out that the reason they stopped playing was because Lion is at a disadvantage against those guys...

[/ QUOTE ]

This wasn't me either. I don't know where you got this for either Paul or myself.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
4) There's way too much tactics in this game to assume who's top characters and who isn't. Right now it's all opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite agree with this. Ranking characters or whatnot isn't an exact science and there is subjectivity involved. However, over time a certain level of concensus does arise and there is some general agreement in putting characters into certain tiers.

Not that everyone agrees or that there is a "right" answer, but a ranking that puts Lei Fei or Lion at the top tier - or puts Wolf or Lau in the bottom tier - a ranking like that will not gather very much educated support.

-Jason

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I don't quite agree with this. Ranking characters or whatnot isn't an exact science and there is subjectivity involved. However, over time a certain level of concensus does arise and there is some general agreement in putting characters into certain tiers.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but even if this certain concensus do arise and put characters in certain tiers, it still woudn't mean nothing, coz like i said before the real skill of a character comes from the player, and since not all players are equal in terms of skill, these so called tiers are invalid. read a qoute from my last reply:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
no matter how strong a character may get, in the hands of someone less skilled the character will still be considered weak, whereas a weak character in the hands of a master player can be considered strong, as i've stated before all the character has is potential, NOT greatness, greatness comes from the person who uses the character, a characters weakness is due to the players inabiity to bring out the charcters potential, while a charcters strength is due to a person who can properly manipulate the characters potential and probably take it to an extreme level, chibita would be a great example, since he is so good in tapping into the characters potential, the charcter tends to look very strong, and obviously shows a lot of effective movements

[/ QUOTE ]

nuff said. peace /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Not that everyone agrees or that there is a "right" answer, but a ranking that puts Lei Fei or Lion at the top tier - or puts Wolf or Lau in the bottom tier - a ranking like that will not gather very much educated support.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jacky and Lau are top characters, nothing can take that away from them, yet who knows where the other characters fall in the catagory because I don't think we've figured out every thing there is to know about them. Lion seems like he's just an average character and most people will probably say he's just an average character, yet tell those guys to play against Chibitas Lion and they'll probably rethink their opinions on the guy. And who knows, maybe other characters can be just as dangerous if the right person were to play them. For all I know, Lei Fei is the best for some reason I haven't found out yet.

 

The only reason Jacky and Lau might be considered on top of other characters has to do with quick-damage potential. It doesn't take a frigging Chibita to lay PPPPPPPK and take off half the life bar. So any ape-fingered angry young man can use Jacky or Lau to make a Lion or Lei Fei play catch up. If the Lion player gets scared and turtles against Lau (that's me) because Lau is going to float his ass and kill him, then he gets thrown and loses anyway. One thing you'll notice watching these pro Japanese players or pros period is that no matter how far down their lifebar gets, they don't panic, and they come back gradually with their Shuns or Aois. Now, I love Lau as a character, but I don't play him well for some reason. And really, when you look at pro Laus, they're about as exciting as watching paint dry. Effective, but you've seen it all before. Jackys are the same. The only thing separating those two characters from the pack is the quick, high-damage series/combos that are as easy as falling down and getting your momma to kiss your skint knee. Jacky and Lau are made for winners who want to win fast, while Lei, Lion, Kage, Shun and Aoi are for folks who want technique and proficency along with their wins. And Lei Fei DOES ROCK. We probably haven't seen the Chibita of Lei Feis yet, but when we do...oh man...

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
even if this certain concensus do arise and put characters in certain tiers, it still woudn't mean nothing, coz like i said before the real skill of a character comes from the player, and since not all players are equal in terms of skill, these so called tiers are invalid

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken, because we're on exactly the same page.

I'm not the one arguing that since Chibita's so great with Lion, Lion is one of the best characters. Nor do I spend time trying to determine who fits in what tier. My only point is that when people do discuss such things, Lion simply isn't one of the characters who tops such a discussion.

I suppose I had a secondary point that Lion is a great character to invest in with lots of rewards for the intermediate player.

-Jason

 

i guess that was misuderstanding in my part (my apologies), so to speak i see both your points, its true that when most dicussion about tier take place, most fall short of being part of the top, like Lion, Aoi and Shun, and IMO i think this is understimation, i mean most of everyone here (most) knows how balance issues were well thought of in VF4, which goes to explain that each character closely equals one another in terms of potential. so any charcter can be rewarding with the right amount of effort. peace /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif