israeli-lebenon. what a mess..........

Re: Kaboom!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

 

Re: Kaboom!

Disgusting revelation of the abuse of the Security Council Veto, but what can we do about it? Besides praying that some non-Pro-Israeli President comes to power, that is.

 

Re: Kaboom!

You bring up some very interesting points, I will be looking into them. Thanks for your non-insulting and mature response.
Could you please specify when and how Jews were against ethnic nationalism? Not that I doubt it, it just seems you have more insight into this.

 

Re: Kaboom!

That's why pro-Jewish people love Bush, (rubs chin) interesting...

 

Re: Kaboom!

One of, if not the main source of anti-Semitism has been that Jews were often viewed as aliens within a society ie, that they are ever loyal to an outside entity no matter what their citizenship.

In Germany before WWII, Jews were a minority, but owned (if I remember correctly) a majority of the businesses and and had a lot of a control over the financial industry. In short, the habits created by diaspora living seemed to predispose Jewish people for success when capitalism and industrialization emerged.

The success of Jews fueled anti-Semitism in Germany and this worsened as Germany experienced calamitous events like losing WWI and the economic depression that followed largely as a result of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.

German Nationalism asserted itself in the most belligerent way imaginable. The "Stab in the Back" theory was born, stating that Germany never lost World War I but rather was betrayed by elements within Germany that sabatoged German victory. These "elements" were the Jews.

[The "Stab in the Back Theory" is a right wing fetish of sorts. American conservatives still blame hippies for losing the Vietnam War. When we leave Iraq, we will hear the same thing.]

So the Jews were considered enemies of the state. Germans were exalted as the Master Race. Germany as the nation of the Master Race, was destined to take its rightful place above all nations. But first, the nazis believed, the evil, undermining Jews had to be eliminated.

Thus began one of the most horrific episodes in human history - German ethnic nationalism asserting itself against all the Jews of Europe.

Fast forward to Israel today where conditions in occupied territories are unacceptable. By international law, Israel has no right to continue the occupation, since the territory was acquired through unacceptable means. Even if Israel were to declare all of the territory Israeli, that would be better than the status quo. Now there is basically an apartheid state where the Palestinians have no citizenship. The Israeli gov't defines the terms of their existence. Settlements are built wherever the government sees fit. Palestinians have really no say in the running of their lives.

It is the consequences of the 1967 war that shape the conflict today. Israel should go back to pre-67 orders and pay billions to the Palestinians to compensate them for all the land stolen over the years. Even the Native Americans got casinos for Chrissakes.

I personally believe that the Israelis could live in relative peace among their neighbors, but they would have to make sacrifices. What they are doing now is unacceptable. They strengthen extremist groups. They increase the liklihood that there will be more massive terror attacks in America. I believe that Israel is hurting itself by its actions.

American support for Israel is kept nearly unanimous by mechanisms that may be more fragile than they appear. Eventually, after more devastating attacks, people may ask why they hate us and the idiot's answer: "They hate our freedoms" will not suffice. When the Arab world sees entire Lebanese towns turned to rubble and corpses, they blame Israel and the U.S. Just because Tom Brokaw doesn't say so doesn't mean it's not happening.

I for one, do not want the last thing I hear to be "Kaboom!"

 

Re: Kaboom!

Whoa! Thanks for the propaganda-free insight, it was very informative. I will do more research... I'm just finding it hard to believe that this kinda boils down to a "whiteys VS darkies" controversy aided by the US... I'm going to have to do a LOT more research...

 

Big Papa Pump

To be honest, I can't say that I know all that I would like to in terms of understanding the situation of the region. I know that oil fits into the equation as well.

As best I can tell at this point, oil politics and hawkish Israel politics converge in way that leads corrupt U.S. leaders to work with Israel to keep Arab states ruled by corrupt autocrats who enrich themselves while keeping the bulk of oil profits away from the masses.

The U.S. keeps them in power even as these regimes scapegoat the U.S. and Israel for all the region's problems (see Saudi Arabia and Wahabi Islam).

The oil Gazillionaires invest their money in American stocks and T-bonds, enabling U.S. Presidents (Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II) to run up huge gov't deficits without really hurting the economy as much. The first Prez Bush was even drawing an $87 million sallary from the Carlyle Group - a largely Saudi owned Military/Industrial corporation. That company makes army planes and shit. The U.S. taxpayer pays for it, the Saudis get the profits, and G.H.W. Bush gets an eight figure salary. We the People get screwed.

The people running this country have made fortunes in both oil and arms. Why don't the Democrats make a big deal about this? Who pays for the Democrats campaign ads? Why doesn't the media point this out? Who owns the media? Anyone see the movie Network?

Another tactic we employ is to encourage sectarian rifts in the region. Remember the Iran-Iraq war in the eighties, the one in which we gave Saddam the only WMD he ever had? We armed the Iraqis. We armed the Iranians. That war took the lives of over a million people. Better these countries focus their anger on each other and weaken both of their nations rather than prosper and perhaps someday become powerful enough to challange U.S./Israeli dominance in the region or disrupt the Saudi-controlled OPEC cartel which really benefits a handful of ruling elites and the oil industry.

It's all a bunch of rackets atop rackets. Every time you spend thirty bucks pumping your car full of gas, it is you who is getting pumped - pumped in the ass by the angry meatpole of the petroleum industry and our military-industrial-political complex.

We are all getting pumped and I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

[ QUOTE ]
thirty bucks

[/ QUOTE ]

Try $50. If you like the good stuff and let the tank get real low (like me), that $50 won't peg the gauge. Thirty bucks'll fill up your motorcycle though, and probably a lawnmower too if you're lucky.

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

I agree $50 bucks to fill my Nissan Maxima. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

And unfortunately it's not a simple matter of choosing cheaper gas as octane ratings are very important for the type of car you drive. I can get away with an 89 octane rating, but anything less and I risk having problems on the road later on such as chugging, misfires, etc.

 

Re: Kaboom!

[ QUOTE ]
Jerky said:

I prefer to have these type of discussions with friends or family. Only because we can agree to disagree peacefully without any hard feelings. Around strangers, at parties etc. this type of conversation is a real turn off believe me. Once people start talking, and arguing politics just count the number of people who start to leave.

Not trying to be shallow here, nor am I saying this type of conversation has no place, but right about now it's like sitting amongst of two bickering siblings while I'm trying to enjoy my fucking steak. (I read this thread for the sake of what you just said about it being a good disscusion, and it is an important issue.)

Btw, this red alert sucks ass right now. I know people who are just fucked over atm /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

& you wonder why you don't get invited to the cool parties. /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

I drive a little Toyota. It's $30 for me. I laugh at the dudes in Suburbans.

I buy all my gas at Citgo. They are the least wicked oil company as far as I can tell.

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbmgkCiwTKo

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

That's funny. I read that Hersh article earlier today and thought about putting a link to it, but was lazy. Rawstory.com had a link to it.

I just watched this show on MSNBC about Jihadists. They were talking about what their motivations are. At no point did anyone mention U.S. support for Israel as among the motivations. They even had Michael Scheuer interviewed. I read his book and in it, he claims that U.S. support for Israel fuels extremism and motivates people like bin Laden, Zawahiri, and so on. Yet during this hour long show, they could not mention Israel at all.

THAT is bias.

Of course it does not follow that we should change any policy just because bin Laden wants us to, but to lie by omission and thereby created a false or incomplete perception among people is just wrong.

I wish that the media would just tell the truth and let the public make up its mind. And I wish I had a pet dragon that would fly me from place to place.

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

[ QUOTE ]
DissMaster said:
And I wish I had a pet dragon that would fly me from place to place.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont we all.

curiousity beckons, on this programme you talk of, what did they cite as the main reasons for extremists?
it wasnt the overused 'they hate our freedoms' speech is it?

 

Re: Big Papa Pump

The funny thing about the show was that it pointed out that the "freedom haters" talk is bullshit. They instead settled upon the idea that it is the U.S. occupation of Iraq that inspires radical Islam. And basically nothing else. I guess the producers are hoping that no one would remember that 9/11 took place before we conquered Iraq.

From an article written by ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern:

The (9/11) commission's desire to avoid unpleasantness shows through even more clearly as the final report tiptoes past a core issue--motivation. Chartered to "prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks," the commission might have been expected to devote considerable effort to discerning the "why" of the attacks--especially for those among us who remain impervious to the dumbed-down bromide about the terrorists hating our democracy.

If you read page 147 of the commission report carefully, you will find embedded there a key sentence throwing light on the motive of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, whom the report calls the "mastermind of the 9/11 attacks:"

"KSM's animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel."

A footnote points out that his statements regarding the "why" of attacking the United States echo those of his nephew, Ramzi Yousef, when he was sentenced in New York to a prison term of 240 years in January 1998. Yousef, mastermind of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, accused the United States of supporting Israeli terrorism against Palestinians, adding that he was proud to fight any country that supports Israel.

 

Re: Israel-Lebanon

I'm still laughing at the outcome of this ceasefire /versus/images/graemlins/lol.gif
Both sides are claming victory /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Then you hear them chanting "death to America" and "death to England" and "death to Zionists".
I've learned a lot from this thread but when I look at Israel and I look at Hezbollah, I've GOT to choose the lesser of two evils and that IS Israel.
No matter how much anybody says otherwise, one side is doing some horrible things and the other side is doing some horrendously horrible things.
Just listen to Hezbollah, they're animals!

 

Re: Israel-Lebanon

Treat someone like a dog long enough and they will behave like a dog.

Tony you are one messed up individual.

 

Re: Israel-Lebanon

Dude, do you agree with beheading somebody while they're still alive? Do you believe in taking planes full of innocent people hostage and flying them into giant complexes full of more innocent people?
I'm tired of people trying to justify these kind of acts. I'm sorry I called Hezbollah animals... even animals wouldnt say and do what they do. I know that Israel is wrong and so are we for supporting them but chanting death to whole countries??? WTF, Fishie, why dont you go blow yourself up or something.

 

Re: Israel-Lebanon

Hey Tony,

My name's Isramerika. I'm super strong and invulnerable. One day I'll move into your house and stay there. I'll eat your food, sell your stuff, and tell your wife how to dress and behave. I'll even try to do her once a week for good measure 'cause I got a big dick and that's what every woman really wants.

There's nothing you can do about it except break my cellphone and kill my dog.

If you do break my cellphone, I'm gonna invite all my friends over and we'll stand around your house and neighborhood and bug the shit outta you. Then I'll whine about my broken cellphone for years to come. In the mean-time, the rest of your friends are getting their phones broken and their dogs killed every day.

If you complain about that, I'm gonna laugh at you. I'm gonna show the world what an animal you are - breaking my cellphone and killing my dog like an evil little boy. And that whole thing about living in your house - that thing that's REALLY pissing you off? Not gonna mention it. I mean, why is THAT important?