Isreal corners the market on concrete!

[ QUOTE ]
Shadowdean said:

First of all, get your history right. The Israelie government was NOT the ones who told the "palestinian" people to leave, that was ALL their buddies, who have not helped them, but moreso, backed by russia saying they would help Egypt, syria, Iran, etc fight Israel...we saw how that worked...oh yeah, before the palestinians and the romans, the Jewish people had Israel...so this is just comming full circle back to the people who ORIGINALLY had the land.
Get your religious theology right - G-D was never betrayed by the Jews for hte jews leaving...there is no writings of god being angry in the Torah, Gemorah, or Talmud. God got angry for other things, but not because Jews left Israel. The diaspora can be related to the story of babel. Which, as god had known, would happen (This is all taking a religious point of view, mind you)...just as god knew that adam and eve would eat from the tree of life - it was his intention for them to eat, otherwise he would of created them differently.
But, basic argument on entitlement - it was the Jewish people's land first, so you can call this full circle.
On mistreatment - Israel treats the palestinian people better than their arab or christian-arab neighbors.
On the Palestinians being told to flee - that was by Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Egypt. For the current divison of Israel, the 6 day war was started because of Russian envolvment. (that is a long story in of itself)...Israel made the first strike because they KNEW they were going to get attacked, so even that was not what you would call a first strike, more like self defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah whatever, thing is both Jews and Palestines are semites and both have lived on the land since biblical times so what youre saying doesnt hold much water either way.

 

GE - if you read into more of the biblical stuff, it has been pretty decided that God knew and wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the treet of knoweldge so that they would advance (thus becomming better able to serve God).
Zero- fucking conveyent...shit, 60 years ago is ancient history for me. As for your N.A....guess what twit, people come in and kick ass and take shit and thats how crap has always happened through force and violence. THats how shit happened..
The jewish people have been displaced time and time again...it is originally, no matter what you want to think, our home. You know why Musliem people hate jews, because we rejected the religion AFTER they included Moses as a prophit - which was only done to try and get the Jewish people to convert...hell, look at the religion, its almost a carbon copy right down the line, excepet a LOT more extreme with its treatment of women.

 

Excellent post.

 

Err, even by Musliem recordings, Jews were in that land first. Period.

 

Of course they were, back then there were no Muslims.
Islam Muslims believe was brought by Muhammed(praise be his name) as a final chance for humanity after Jews and then Christians corrupted God´s word, once the Koran gets corrupted by people is when it will be all over as manny Muslims believe.

Anyways, this isnt about theology, leave God out of this for a sec and just look at whats happening.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shadowdean said:

GE - if you read into more of the biblical stuff, it has been pretty decided that God knew and wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the treet of knoweldge so that they would advance (thus becomming better able to serve God).
Zero- fucking conveyent...shit, 60 years ago is ancient history for me. As for your N.A....guess what twit, people come in and kick ass and take shit and thats how crap has always happened through force and violence. THats how shit happened..
The jewish people have been displaced time and time again...it is originally, no matter what you want to think, our home. You know why Musliem people hate jews, because we rejected the religion AFTER they included Moses as a prophit - which was only done to try and get the Jewish people to convert...hell, look at the religion, its almost a carbon copy right down the line, excepet a LOT more extreme with its treatment of women.


[/ QUOTE ]

A lot more extreme with its treatment of woman?
Oh so youre one of those people who blame the religion for cultural and regional shit instead of what the religion itself teaches?
Yeah some Muslims in Nigeria do female circumsicions lets blame the religion despite the fact that a female circumcision equels mutilation wich is not allowed and robs a woman of the right to an orgasm wich is also not allowed by Islam.
Yeah lets blame Islam becouse some reactionary idiots in saudi Arabia etcetera decided woman cant drive and have to wear Burka´s all the time while the Koran states woman are different but equel to men and bla bla bla.
Oh BTW two can play that game, look at the teachings and actions of some of the more extreme rabbi´s and the way they enforce their wills on more secular jews during Sabbat etcetera.

Annyways, like I said lets drop the theology stuff and get this thing back on track.
Israeli´s are openly talking about so called TRANSFER wich is nothing more then another word for ethnic cleansing of the area.
Open any Israeli newspaper left or right for examples.
It has truly become a state of apartheid inside Israel and outside its even worse with the illegal settlements under the guise of protection causing the collective punishment of millions of Palestines.

 

That's the problem when so many people claim to hear the voice of God, but don't know what the fuck he said. Mix that with centuries of human error in misstranslations of ancient texts, using religion for political positioning, and to control their people and you see the problems with religion in society today.

Anyone who believes that a woman doesn't deserve the same rights as a man is a fucking idiot. Period. Female mutilation like those imposed on many Chinese and African females should not be tolerated, but unfortunately most of the world turns a blind eye. I'd love to show most of those fucknuggets what true mutilation is. /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
GE - if you read into more of the biblical stuff, it has been pretty decided that God knew and wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the treet of knoweldge so that they would advance (thus becomming better able to serve God).


[/ QUOTE ]

well, Dean, I've been reading into this "biblical stuff" for over 15 years which is long enough to know there is a definite problem with a finite mind believing it can comprehend the Will and Reason of an infinite mind (or a flawed minde comprehending a perfect mind) so I think I'll take a pass on the whole "it's been decided" issue.

I was bringing up a point that determinism/omniscience does not automatically rule out Free Will, you brought up an interpretation of events. The two aren't the same.

GE

 

GE: Well, I can only speak from what I have grown up studying. The major belief is that the tree of life was planted and presented in such a way that god knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, sooner than later. If god did not want to create the temptation, then why would god specifically mention it? More than likely, if they (this includes all the speaking things in the garden of eden, which if we read strictly, was everything from snakes to humans). I don't believe this contradicts anything in free will, if anything, adam and eve knew diddly squat about free will untill they had eaten from the tree of life...they were more or less completely blank slates.

Fishie: Let's be clear, I have been to Israel on more than one occasion, have friends who have lived there for years (both from left and right wing ideology) and Israel is not partaking in any sort of ethnic cleansing. There are no death camps or anything of the sort. Most of what Israel does is a response to what Arafat said in and about 95 "we will not stop untill we control Jerusalem." That is probally why Arafat is out more or less and Abbas is in - Abbas is willing to negotiate...though we will see how much he holds his words in that he has been completely unwilling to take on, directly, any of the major jihad movements. Lets get a few things clear - almost all (not all the settlements in the west bank are illegal, because the west bank includes a lot of Territotories won by Israel over a number of wars against it) are illegal. Those have got to go. The new settlements that Israel has been putting up on the other side of the country are not in area's promised to the palestinians from any negotiation. They are just moving some of the illegal settlers to these new areas. The fact is, all the security measures are fucking nessisairy because Israel is in a state of seige. Unlike Israel, which does take a ton of measures to just go after combatants (which is made extremely hard due to the fact that they like to hide amongst civilians and use civilians as cover, which in my mind, makes those civilians combatants). Israel has not gone after children, women (a good friend of mine, who attended 15 funerals last year, included her baby cousin of 2 months age who was shot in the head by a sniper who was part of arafats personal guard, and then the parents...who were just driving to Haifa). Israel has not said they are not going to stop untill the have completely oppressed an entire people.
In the end, if you want to feel something, feel sorry for the Palesetinian people because they have been made into pawns by the larger Arab states.
Maybe to clarify, you know how they go after people to get them to become suicide bombers. They (Syria, Iran, Saudi-Arabia and factions within), keep psychological profiles on almost all the Palestinian people. They target people who are out of work and are shown to be manic-depressive. THey say that if you blow yourself up, aside from going to heaven and being able to fuck 70 virgins and whatnot, that their family will be taken care of, children fed, sent to school, etc (this rarely happens in the end to any great effect). They will give these people money to bow themselves up, yet will not admit any of them into their countries? WTF is up with that? But it is just a completely idiotic leap to say that Israel partaking in ethnic cleansing.

 

Weather by will or force, dead or alive Transfer will take place, they see themselves as people under ocupation wich they are not as this is greater Israel oure birthright, people under ocupation will resist, I know i would so on their free will or forced, dead or alive transfer will take place.

Words of a settler leader in Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Tell me how a missile fired from a jet to an appartment block discriminates between an innocent child and a criminal, tell me how every single person in washington DC is a crminal becouse rapists, thiefs and murderers live between them, tell me how the way Israel treats the palestinians is not breeding more hatred etcetera.

Here are some statistics for you, first 8 and a half months of 2k2.

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/statistics/indstats/aug2002.html

As of 15 August, DCI/PS had documented the deaths of 125 Palestinian children as a direct result of Israeli military and settler presence and activity in the occupied territories. These deaths bring the total number of Palestinian children killed since the beginning of the Intifada to 317.

The majority (57.6%) of these children were killed in a two month span (March and April). Approximately 1/3 (32.8%) of the Palestinian children killed thus far in 2002 were 8 years and younger. Fourteen were killed during attempts to assassinate Palestinian activists by the Israeli military. Over 50% of the children killed died as a result of fatal injuries sustained to more than one bodily location. Approximately 1/3 were killed as a result of live ammunition. Twelve percent (12%) died as a result of injuries sustained during clashes between Palestinian and Israeli military forces, while 39.2% died as a result of Israeli shelling and missile attacks of Palestinian residential areas. Six children died after their homes were demolished on top of them and 11 died as a result of UXO explosions.

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/statistics/indstats/endjuly2002.html

DCI/PS DOCUMENTATION
Breakdown of Palestinian Child Deaths During the Intifada
29 September 2000 - 31 July 2002


Breakdown according to Age Group
AGE GROUP NUMBER PERCENTAGE
0-8 years 56 17.89%
9-12 years 54 17.25%
13-15 years 99 31.63%
16-17 years 104 33.23%
TOTAL 313 100%


Breakdown according to Perpetrator

PERPETRATOR NUMBER PERCENTAGE
Israeli Military Forces 307 98.09%
Israeli Settlers 6 1.91%
TOTAL 313 100%


Breakdown according to Location of Fatal Injury

LOCATION NUMBER PERCENTAGE
More than one location 107 34.19%
Head 85 27.16%
Chest 64 20.45%
Back 11 3.51%
Eye 6 1.92%
Neck 7 2.24%
Abdomen 9 2.88%
Waist 5 1.60%
Thigh* 1 0.32%
Pelvis 2 0.64%
Asphyxiation 5 1.58%
Closure** 11 3.51%
TOTAL 313 100%


*This child was wounded in the thigh and then left without medical treatment until they bled to death.
** These cases are of children who died either because they were unable to receive medical treatment because of curfews and closure or were refused passage while seeking medical assistance.


Breakdown of Deaths by Means
CAUSE OF INJURY NUMBER PERCENTAGE
Live Ammunition 155 49.52%
Fragmenting Bullets 26 8.31%
Machine Gun 25 7.99%
Tank Shell 10 3.19%
Vehicular Manslaughter 5 1.60%
Shrapnel from Shelling 7 2.24%
Rubber Coated Steel/Plastic Bullets 3 0.96%
Gas 4 1.28%
Closure* 11 3.51%
UXO 18 5.75%
Explosion (Related to Assassination Attempt) 1 1.28%
Shrapnel from Explosion (Related to Assassination Attempt) 1 0.32%
Energia (Grenade) 1 0.32%
Shrapnel from Missile 6 1.92%
Shrapnel from Bullets 4 1.98%
Missile 15 4.79%
More than one 8 2.55%
Surface-to-Surface Missile 2 0.64%
Home Demolition 6 1.92%
Other 2 0.64%
TOTAL 313 100%


* These cases are of children who died either because they were unable to receive medical treatment because of curfews and closure or were refused passage while seeking medical assistance.

 

Statistics from the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp

Palestinians Killed in the Occupied Territories
(including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the
First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of May 2003

Year Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli security forces Palestinians security forces personnel killed by Israeli security forces Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli civilians
Dec 9-31 19871 22 - -
1988 289 - 15
1989 285 - 17
1990 125 - 9
1991 91 - 6
1992 134 - 2
1993-13.9.932 124 - 5
14.9.93-31.12.93 30 - 8
1994 105 1 38
1995 38 4 2
1996 56 13 3
1997 18 - 2
1998 21 - 6
1999 8 - -
2000 until 28.9 12 2 -
29.9.003-31.12.00 272 6
2001 454 7
2002 990 13
2003 until May 31 305 6
Total- 3,399 145


Israelis Killed in the Occupied Territories
(including East Jerusalem), since the Beginning of the
First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of May 2003

Year Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians Israeli security forces personnel killed by Palestinian civilians Israeli security forces peronnel kiiled by Palestinian security forces
Dec 9-31 19871 - - -
1988 6 4 -
1989 3 6 -
1990 4 3 -
1991 7 1 -
1992 11 14 -
1993-13.9.932 16 15 -
14.9.93-31.12.93 11 3 -
1994 11 11 1
1995 7 9 -
1996 3 4 15
1997 4 - -
1998 8 3 -
1999 1 2 -
2000 until 28.9 2 1 -
29.9.003-31.12.00 18 19
2001 65 21
2002 88 101
2003 until May 31 16 18
Total 281 251

In addition to the data above:
11 foreign citizens were killed by Palestinians;
14 foreign citizens were killed by Israeli security forces;


Total Casualties in Israel from the Beginning of the
First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) untill the end of May 2003

Year Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli security forces Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli civilians Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian civilians Israeli security forces personnel killed by Palestinian civilians
Dec 9-31 19871 - - - -
1988 1 5 2 -
1989 1 2 17 5
1990 1 10 13 2
1991 5 2 7 4
1992 2 - 8 1
1993-13.9.93* 7 2 6 5
14.9.93-31.12.932 4 - 3 2
1994 7 1 47 4
1995 - 1 9 21
1996 - 2 38 15
1997 - 1 25 -
1998 - 1 1 -
1999 1 - 1 -
2000 5 - 4 -
2001 9 - 86 16
2002 29 - 183 47
2003 until May 31 7 - 34 4
Total 79 27 484 126


In addition to the data above:

Two foreign citizens were killed by Israeli security forces personnel
46 foreign citizens were killed by Palestinians
3 Israeli civilians were killed by foreign citizens.


1. The first Intifadah began on 9 December, 1987.
2. On 13 September 1993, Israel and the PLO signed the Declaration of Principles which began the Oslo Process.
3. The "Al-Aqsa" Intifadah began on 29 September, 2000.


* The data may change due to ongoing research, which produces new information about the events.

 

[ QUOTE ]
GE: Well, I can only speak from what I have grown up studying. The major belief is that the tree of life was planted and presented in such a way that god knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, sooner than later. If god did not want to create the temptation, then why would god specifically mention it? More than likely, if they (this includes all the speaking things in the garden of eden, which if we read strictly, was everything from snakes to humans). I don't believe this contradicts anything in free will, if anything, adam and eve knew diddly squat about free will untill they had eaten from the tree of life...they were more or less completely blank slates.


[/ QUOTE ]

first of all, you have a sentence that goes absolutely nowhere after your parantheses. "More than likely if they (...)." so if there was supposed to be a valid point in there you should go back and make it.

okay. the tree of knowledge (there were two trees, one life and the other knowledge of Good and Evil and they are not interchangeable). Yes, he knew they would eat from the tree. He's God. God is Omniscient (all knowing). That doesn't mean he wanted them to eat from the tree.

Why did he put the tree in the garden in the first place? It wasn't for temptation as you mention. God doesn't tempt people, he tests (there is a unbelievable expanse between these two notions as both lead to far different ends) them. Satan tempts people (and did tempt Eve and Adam).

And sure Adam and Eve knew about free will. God Tells them them that they are free to eat from every tree in the garden except for one, the tree of knowledge (Genesis 2:16, 2:17), and that if they disobey his word then there will be punishment. He allows them the luxury of choice. I forbid you to do this and if you do it anyway well I'll spank you. You don't get choice without Free Will.

Now, what they didn't know about was Good and Evil because they had never sinned against God before. The tree wasn't anything special (in of itself) it was just the one tree out of an entire garden that God pointed to and said, "thou Shalt Not".

so they got tested. Because a person who worships without faith is useless to God. and they failed.

GE

 

Yep, you're just worshipping out of fear and not out of true love. The entire foundation of the Judeo-Christian religions is fear and no amount of candy-coating will alter that. A&E are put in Eden and told not to touch that spot. Then God *allows* Lucifer to tempt Eve which in turn leads to mans downfall. She gave in to temptation from God and Lucifer and Adam gave in to the temptation of woman. All of that entire scenario was constructed and mediated by God himself if you believe your own texts. A&E were guinea pigs who damned the entire creation of man just for doing what we are designed to do. God is supposed to be omniscient by judeo-christian standards and that would prove by default that he knew exactly what was going to ultimately happen to his creation. Although, to appease his own wicked streak and need for adoration he allowed all of this to happen. You can blame all this shit on Lucifer, but he isn't allowed to do anything without God's approval. Now keep this bullshit religious debate down and argue about the Isreali/Palestinian rights to the land or make a new thread guys. Any religious documents detailing ownership of any land by divine mandate don't mean shit in the modern world. The Isreali and Palestinian governments are full of a bunch of dumbasses who love to stir up their people and engage in violence just for the sake of violence.

 

free will dictates that I can tell you to shove it up your ass. The text of the bible isn't "mine" as indicated, your shallow rant shows shallower understanding and you can argue for anything you want. I'll not stop you.

Shove it up your ass

GE

 

And you were the one saying the article was biased...

Fishie: Thanks for the statistics

 

You completely ignore WHY they got killed, because these palestinian fatah, Al-Jazeer, etc, HIDE amongst the children. I am sorry, that does not give them cart-blanch protection.

 

In the Jewish religion, there is no lucifer, or hell. So from the jewish perspective (I should of stated that from the start), the treet of life/knoweldge was placed there so that they would eat, grow knoweldgeable about the world around them and go on to populate amongst the people.

 

Ok, if you want to get technical then your own personal devil that tempts you in Jewish faith is considered the same as Lucifer. For time these evil spirits (later converged into one) have been used to justify how bad things happen when you have a omnibenevolent creator. The lord creator has set a mandate and the jewish devil cannot go past that and requires authorization for any temptation of a man's will. Maybe you can call it the Garden of Evil as so many have used it. Jewish belief in no hell doesn't relieve them of fear of dying a bad person and not getting to share with Yahweh.

 

The focus of Jeudiasm is not the fatalistic stuff of christianity. The "goal" of Jeudiasm is not to get into heaven or anything, but to make the earth closer to heaven so that we may receive the moshiach. There are no personal devils...what you have brought up leads into a HUGE area of Jewish theology dealing with the soul that if you want to discuss, I will be more than happy, but it should be in another thread. But, very simply - there - is - no - "jewish" - devil.

 

Oh boy, even more ignorance.
Tell me witouth doing a search what fatah is.
All Jazeera of course is a SATELITE NEWS ORGANISATION.

So the fact that would be terrorists are hiding in a city of several hunderd thousands of people gives the Israeli millitary the right to kill a few hunderd children each year?
The two thousand plus innocent Palestinians killed by Israel are legitimised becouse a few hunderd israeli´s were killed?
Its justified to collectively punish millions of people to protect a few thousand people who even according to Israel themselves live on illegal settlements?
Youre ignorance shines trough by mentioning All Jazeera as a terrorist group and youre vieuws wich sadly are shared by the majority of Jews I think wont find many defenders here, or for that matter anywhere else if people were more informed.

just look at the cold hard statistics as provided by the Israeli government themselves, far more innocent palestines get killed by isreali´s then the other way around, there can be no end to the circle of violence if the side who has all the power doesnt break it.