Martial arts styles

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sanjuro said:

Western style boxing. One night there was a big fight in Louie's (the several participants were practicing varied arts you could generally classify as Drunken Western Style Boxing with a smidgen of Mid South Wrestling) I had to break up where this guy Sparky used the formica counter and the other guy's head. This seemed pretty effective.

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Haha, this sounds familiar. My friends are the MASTERS of Drunken Box: in the last fight, one was too drunk to stand, pulled his opponent to the ground and got smacked in the face by another friend who's reactions weren't as fast as his sight, this while another planted his forehead on the nose of a stoner who wanted to end the fight shouting: Life is music...2 times

In my case-I could still apply more to this toppic if it was placed on a Street Fighter forum-it's sad ,more than a year of Muay Thaï and still no proper reactions on the streets but the same style I used when I was ten...But there must have been some change since then though: winning 2 against 5 with 2 K.O's on the other half, an excellent for my friend and only a small stagger in my face must mean not only the content of my pants got bigger over the years The only problem was that the police first thought the other ones were the victims..

 

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But what I meant is: in BJJ they don't talk about philosofical stuff. They don't hit you hard in the stomach, they don't teach you how to put your finger/arm in place if it's deslocated, they don't teach you they "way" of the samurai. That's the theory, and that's the biggest difference. Martial Arts were created with the intent of evolving ki, and later on as a self-defense art. Theory comes first, always first. Without practise theory is nothing, without effort there's no practise, and without theory there's no effort to make.

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I think that as a literal statement you aren't quite correct. I believe that the "theory" is completely dependant on the teacher. For example in the past I had an excellent Karate teacher - it was a disciplined dojo and each lesson gave me a challenge. They were strict on technique and made you stronger mentally. This is in my opinion nothing overly special or unusual in a martial arts class but go to another Karate class and it's the complete opposite. Fairly slack, fairly relaxed. From my experience the majority of Karate schools had little to no "theory" (and it's my belief that other martial arts are the same).

In the end when you are learning a martial art it's the teacher's duty to teach theory. Any martial art can be taught without any true understanding of it, so I think it's quite possible that there are BJJ teachers out there that do help their students understand their martial art, not just teach the technique.

Also (I just know people are going to tell me I'm wrong about this /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif) what's with the emphasis on the ground game? What are you doing in a fight if you are going to fall on your arse when you're trying to attack your opponent. Every martial art teaches balance so what situation are you going to be on the ground?

 

Simple, you wipe your opponent's feet, he's on the floor, you're on top of him, and then you learn in ju jitsu what to do on the floor. Locks, punches, escapes, etc. Ju-jitsu has a somewhat similar theory as hakkyoku-ken's: Fast knock-out in a short quick and effective sequence of moves. All techniques (besides kicking, punching, and floor-fighting) are based on sending the opponent down to the floor. Every throw, every reversal. Side Kick reversal, guard with hand turned outside with elbow pointing upwards making a 90º. Then turn the hand inside to grab the leg, take one step forward to unbalance the opponent, punch his face, grab his neck, wipe his other leg, and land ur knee on his balls. And then you can just put urself on top of him and start punching his face.

 

WHat? Martial arts were developed the first time someone punched, slugged, or kicked another living animal out of aggression or for protectin...all the mystical crap came MUCH later.

 

You trip, opponent makes you fall, environment makes causes you to trip, loose balance, get hit that sends you to the ground.....have you ever been in a fight?

 

I won't comment on that..

 

Please do, cannot wait to read that comment.

Also, even though I love my Ground and Pound, in the street you REALLY don't wanna be there, because you virtually never only face one opponent.

One-two-knee. Run away.

SCS

 

This is true...the best bet for a street fight is to pack a gun and/or run.

 

Hmm, lots of interesting points . . . I practice Aikido regularly, and play Aoi. I'm not a martial artist because of security issues, but because it makes me a better person. I don't plan on putting myself in situations where fights will occur, and I don't project a victim mentality.

According to a book on BJJ that seemed to be written by one of the Gracies, BJJ is successful in UFC because UFC rules are tailor-made for that style of fighting. Ground fighting and sacrifice throws are pretty alien to an Aikido perspective - why would you intentionally lose your balance and mobility if you're dealing with 5 attackers?

I'd say that running is one of the best tactics, right behind avoiding conflicts in the first place. But carrying a gun, even speaking as someone from the land of concealed-carry, is just likely to get you killed.

 

I know what you mean i triped once in a fight cause some water pipe was sticking out on the floor. But it depends your posision too :
A /
/ B
if im in a higher place A(dont know how to properly say it /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif)then the figh will b a piece of cake.
if im in B is ganna be a bit more difficult.but nothing i cant handle.blocking is the most important part if you know how to block youll have no problems.

 

In Ju Jitsu you learn how to handle knives, take out other's gun, fight against more than one guy, etc. Please, if you're going to write about something you don't no, then don't write. I, MYSELF, have fought in the street against two guys, but I didn't have to use a lot of Ju Jitsu. They both had no weapons, they wanted to rob me, just that. One grabbed my neck, and I reversed (no details..) and put him on the floor with a quick foot tip kick in the ear so that he would stay down.
The other one hesitated for a moment and then decided to the worst of the options, punch me...Ended on the floor, but no reversal. I evaded, grabbed his neck (this time you'll have details) and then I did a kinda mean thing: penetrated my thumb behind his throat. Try it on yourselves, hurts a "lil'bit". I hadn't cut my thumb nail for a long time so I think that's why he bleed. He ended on the floor too. Then I walked away and they did the same with no comments.

Stay cool. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Just a couple of short remarks:

1. About Gracie dominance: The Gracies dominted the early UFC and MMA scene because most of their opponents had never seen their style before and were plain shit on the ground. Since then, MMA have evolved significantly, first big, strong wrestlers like Coleman and Kerr dominated by just taking people down and then headbutting away from the guard-top position (I have a really nasty fight were Kerr is doing just that for just under 30 minutes, evil stuff). Subsequently, headbutts were taken out, to break that dominance and make the fights less bloody. The Gracie's, though clearly partly responsible for the success of the contemporary MMA scene, are nowhere near the tope anymore, as fighters anyway, although they continue to train young and potentially great future fighters. Their career as fighters, however, was more or less ended by Saku in that 90 minutes massacre against Royce (yes, I know that Renzo is still around, but he, too has more influence as coach). Today, at the world-class level no certain style dominates, neither in the UFC's nor the Pride. Nevertheless, there are a couple of things most of the best of the crop of contempoprary pros seem to be focussing on such as Thai-Boxing, Western Boxing and Wrestling. Overall, today's pros , however, train in all aspects of the fight game and Dojos like Team Miletich, Punishment, Quest etc. fare so well because they put emphasis on the whole picture. Individual fighters continue, of course, to excel in certain aspect (e.g. Wanderlei's stand-up, Newton's submissions, etc.) but they have to be good at everything.

2. Dark-Bandana, blocking in a street fight? If by that you mean, "damn, I messed up the first wave of attacks and am now ensuring not to get injured, while mounting a 2nd counter-attack" then I'm with you. Purely defensive blocks are dangerous for one's health, you wanna be all over the fucker asap. A block, should, therefore, always be the beginning of a renewed attack wave. Aggression is king. (sigh, I can hear the Hippie-outcry already..)

SCS

 

I agree with what you just said. But look...UFC and PRIDE aren't exactly were all martial art practicioners gather to fight for the ultimate martial art.. Those guys want the prize. I don't wanna be lame, but I've seen Jet Li's youth, and trust me. That guy's wicked.

I also saw a fight between a really big guy, and a Shaolin chinese guy (19 years old, something like that). The really big guy could've take him out with a punch, because he was really huge, but he couldn't hit the chinese guy. So "that" same guy, jumped over the others back and started like..I dunno, moving his arms really fast and hitting his face all over (He started by slapping both sides of his head to stun him). The big guy headed a punch on the chinese, and he fell to the ground, but then at the same time the he was recovering, the big guy fell to the ground.

Everyone, BUT EVERYONE smart knows that kung-fu martial arts rock over every other else. Don't base yourself on world wide tournaments as not every fighter goes there.

I've seen a Muay Thai kid in the street with the greatest look of a NERD you can imagine (small, glasses and a really "duh" face) being robbed by one guy. Me and a friend of mine decided to go to him and help, but suddenly we stopped as the kid punched the other guy's stomach so hard that it almost looked like he was going to do a kiss of the dragon (lol). But no, he then took two steps backwards and kicked the other guy's face (which was looking down, so it was like a football kicking..). Me and my friend were staring at the robber (or whatever he wanted with the little kid) as he was falling to the ground and there was blood flying from the kick. When he was on the floor, the kid still kicked his balls and then walked away. Me and my friend did the same...I was kinda scared that day. I knew he was from Muay Thai because he lifted his leg and his arms exactly as we see in muay thai. And it was right when the other guy started laughing that the kid punched his stomach..

Well, I don't want to prove something that everyone already knows: Chinese (and thailandese, lol) martial arts rule.

The gracies Ju Jitsu sucks big time. My opinion. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

My background is fairly light - some TKD (like half the people in the universe, lol), aiki-jj (Aoi), and the western knife. And yeah, I use Aoi. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Well, the MMA scene, here or in Japan, is a sport. And as a such, it is governed by rules. So yes, while a wrestling + kickboxing style serves best under such rules, such tactics do not always have a place in real life. On the streets, people don't tap out- they cut you with a knife, gouge your eyes, their buddies jump on you, etc.

Imho, some of the more traditional techniques do a better job in covering the moves that are "illegal" in the MMA scene. But such traditional styles get bad press nowadays, largely because they aren't suited for the MMA sport.

I'm not saying that the MMA style is useless in reality, though. But people have to understand, that in actuality, your opponent will just break your joints, rather than going for a submission. And if you get slammed on pavement- there's a pretty good chance that you'll be dead.

 

Martial Arts Worldwide except in China, Thailand and Japan are Commercial. They are sold, and they are horribly taught. Get a really good kung-fu practicioner and you won't even be able to aim a gun at him unless you're wielding a machine gun (or maybe a bazooka). Same thing applies to knives.

Those types of guys don't fight very often. Most kung-fu practicioners don't tell anyone what they are. They just try not to fight because when they do, not only people might get scared, as they might think he's a freak or something. This is pure truth. Even Jackie Chan said that one day on an interview, that most kids he knew when he was their age are still hiding their Kung-Fu techniques today as adults, so that most people don't really know who they are. He said it's the best way to prevent confrontation and dillemas. That's the reason why you don't see a kung-fu practicioner in Vale Tudo, or Pride.

NOTE: When I say Kung-Fu practiocioner I mean kung-fu learnt in china and/or Japan.

PS: Any wushu pro can kick 10 guys butts in no time. Yes it's hard, but it's more than possible: It's TRUE.

 

MA, outside the military, has been largely commercial. Not really a bad thing- commericalization give MA public exposure, and provide the full time MArtist with a livelihood. I don't think the Asian countries are exceptions to that generality. I haven't been to China, but I have been to Korea and Japan. And let me tell you- the commercialization of MA in those countries is a lot more prolific than they are in the US. I can't imagine China being much different. If something is more popular (MA is more popular in Asia, than in the west), then it is simplely more open to commercialization.

Imho, the eastern style mystique is as bad as the BJJ hype, or vice verca. Kung fu is not the end-all. BJJ is not the end-all. Both are good to know, and provide useful tools in a fight, while leaving some holes to be covered by other styles. MA, in the end, is MA. They kick, punch and grapple.

Btw, there are a quite a few knife techniques that are specifically geared towards defeating the anti-knife techniques taught in many dojos.

 

Hey,

agios, good argument, well presented. As I wrote previously, in a non-competition arena you are highly unlikely to ever face only one enemy. Consequently, nicely thought through reverse-calf-locks etc. go through the window. Interesting points on commercialisation, too.

Sesshoumaru, buddy, guns, knives, able to kick everybody's ass but not wanting to? What are you gonna tell us next, can they do fireballs and psycho-crushers, custom-combos and lvl3 Supers???

This is not meant as a diss so don't flame, I just happen to disagree with your assessment of kung-fu as being the absolute flaming ultra style. If it was as good as you believe, don't you think somebody would have demonstrated its fighting capabilities by now? No, the shaolin monks don't count. While they do perform awesome feats of willpower and physical hardness, they don't fight. (I've seen them twice, and yeah, they are brilliant.)
Also, please do not tell me that they all simply do not want to brag or be perceived as freaks. I have met enough Chinese, Japanese, Thai and Korean MA practicioners whose mentality is so different to what you describe that I have real doubts as to what you are saying. I'm sorry, a Jacky Chan interview (though the man is fantastic) does not convince me one bit.

But mate, feel free to believe in whatever you like, I just really hopenobody ever tries to fight somebody with a knife (unless he/she is literally about to kill you.), regardless of how great they think their style's knife defeses are. I won't even go into guns.

SCS

 

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If it was as good as you believe, don't you think somebody would have demonstrated its fighting capabilities by now?.....Also, please do not tell me that they all simply do not want to brag or be perceived as freaks.

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Maybe it's only when you stop bragging do you obtain the capabilities. /versus/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Such as?
Please no Hippiestuff.
Please only stuff relevant to the discussion.
Please no references to Karma and such like.

And no, I didn't advocate bragging in any way, shape or form.

 

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agios_katastrof said:
My background is fairly light . . . aiki-jj (Aoi)


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Where did you find an aiki-jujitsu dojo? That's some esoteric shit. Kaze arashi ryu?