My thoughts on the current state of fighting games

Myke he's not wrapping his mind around that. It doesnt satisfy him. Weve all said that's what makes VF its own game. He continually making it a non issue which is also not a highly agreed upon opinion. Which is what everyone's been telling him in thread but he has his own personal preference thats not really necessary for the evolution of VF.

 

@Marlow: You're right about 3D fighters having more space, which compounds the issue. You are dead wrong about 3D fighters having more movement options, though. That hasn't been true since 2000. And a lot of what makes 2D games good can be implemented in 3D. Soul Calibur, as mentioned several times, does just that (though it has its own issues that prevent it from being as good as it should be). For the best examples of how you can adequately control space in 3D, look no further than VO/Gundam.

@Zekiel: I have wrapped my head around it dude, believe me. And this kind of thing may not be necessary for the evolution of VF, but it is necessary for the evolution of 3D fighters. Like I keep saying, I don't think VF necessarily needs to be the game to do this because VF has already achieved almost everything it can within its mechanical and aesthetic limitations. I wouldn't mind FS Ver. B, but an entirely new game is going to have to offer something significant over what VF currently does. Without beginning to turn VF into a different kind of game entirely, I don't see how that's possible. Perhaps there are some talented people at AM2 who have some ideas, and if that's the case then I'm all for VF6, even if it doesn't place more emphasis on positioning and ranges.

But then there's the issue of other games starting to move in the direction that people like me want them to, which would make things much harder for VF to survive. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but it's hard for me to see how a VF6 could happen, or if it does, how it could stick around.

 

There are probably not that many players this site that truly understand the extreme precision of footsies in Virtua Fighter. In VF4FT you could stand or crouch just outside of certain attacks, or even backdash evade, or backwards crouchdash evade, and then punish. How many people are even familiar with the concept of the 'backdash evade' in VF and how effective it was in VF4? You could stand next to someone with Akira, backdash against a crouching punch, and hit them with a SPoD.

Let's take a look at Youro Kage vs Minami Akira from a VF4:EVO tournament match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKmcZVRvsfA

Watch in the first round at 3:30. You see Minami go for an elbow, an attack that because it has a f,f or f,f,f built into it often has the player dash foward because they aren't buffering the attack while holding 'guard'. Youro Kage dashes back away from the move and scores a minor counter (with what I believe is b,b+k). Watch how both characters move at the same time in the same direction. Akira moves towards Kage with a dashing attack. But Kage evades the attack...with a backwards dash....directly into a minor counter hit.

Round two, at 3:50 both players are at good few steps away from each other. They use attacks with a long range and even evasive properties. Kage's go to long range attacks in VF4FT were generally df+k and k+g. Watch how Akira attempts a df+p+k, he is hoping that the Kage player moves forward into a high attack that will get MC'd into a crumple combo. That attempt is punished with a mid kick. The Kage player then attempt to move in with a low punch of his own, but is out of range, however Akira is still in range for a b,df+p overhead attack. The last exchange of the round? Another whiffed low punch from Kage that gets hammered with an elbow combo.

Round three. Kage attempts a low punch.Minami moves backwards with a very quick backwards crouchdash (that is canceled) and then punishes with a Stun Palm. It happens quickly and is subtle enough that lots of players miss out on the little things in VF4FT that made the game so brutal when playing against good players.

There are probably thousands of examples of backdash and crouchdash evade techniques on YouTube. I just grabbed a random match and looked for a few examples. But every character has strong backdash evade into punish options. And every character in VF4FT had some mid range and even long range footsie options. Kage, Akira, and LeiFei players would often play at long ranges knowing that they had advantages in certain matchups by playing from afar.

Virtua Fighter has always had a "less is more" approach. It's the most complex fighting game series yet it achieves that with only three buttons. Half of the buttons that most fighting games use to control their characters. On the surface the games with a million mechanics may seem more complex yet often their depth isn't matched in terms of quality of moves versus the sheer quantity of actions you can take.

Look at something like Super Turbo. ST has zero dashes, no crouch dash, no air dash, no parry, no super jump, and generally limited movement options. Characters can walk forwards and backwards; jump up, back, or towards; and use their normal or special attacks to move (Ryu's forward+fierce is a dashing movement and attack combined, Sagat's Tiger Knees can move you across the screen, Boxer's Rush Punches can dash you forward directly into a Super attack).

The point I'm making, is that a tiny canceled crouch dash in VF, has the same effect as a full screen flight dash in Virtual On. You can score huge damage from both. But most players will notice a huge mech flying across the screen. Probably the average fighting game player isn't going to see just how important the more subtle movements are in VF. Sega just needs better tutorials. As good as VF4:EVO's tutorials were they weren't teaching anyone to Minami Step or how to approach someone in a long range exchange.

There are so many things that players on VF can learn from VF4:EVO and VF4FT that they never discovered. A rerelease of VF4FT with new tutorials would basically be a brand new VF to probably everyone on this site including myself. For those who started in the SFIV/VF5FS era they'd be getting a very different VF experience with VF4FT than what they are used to.

There's no more talent at Sega or AM2. The company that exists now has the Sega name....but that's about it. Considering how bad VF5FS was as a fighting game, not just as a VF game, I'm not thrilled with this same team handling VF6. They should just hire Chibita or Ohsu or some other VF specialist to make VF4FT tutorials and put that game out in HD and back into arcades. Yu Suzuki just crowdsourced Shenmue III rather than have Sega pay a few million dollars for upstart costs. I don't know what Sega is thinking anymore. Other than cramming out more Sonic cartoons and Sonic t-shirts.

And fighting games and video games are not getting easier and less hardcore. There's a huge demand for difficult games. Every night there are thousands and thousands of people grinding out difficult games. Speed running. Or competing online. PC gaming and modding are as strong as they've ever been. There's always going to be a market for casual gamers. But hardcore gamers never go away. They always want some game that will be time consuming. Look at the rise of Magic the Gathering and Hearthstone in the last few years. You want to play Magic the Gathering competitively? Be prepared to memorize hundreds of cards and be able to instantly recall them. Want to play Magic's Legacy format? You'll need to memorize an additional few thousand cards just to have grasp on the format. And that's Magic where people are willing to pay thousands of dollars every year for pieces of cardboard. Hardcore gaming is alive and well.

Mainstream games have generally always been easy. Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy X were designed to be beaten. To see the story to its conclusion. They are great games but they are quite easy. God of War and Metal Gear Solid have easy modes where even the most casual gamer can beat them in one or two sittings.

The VF series was at it peak when it was at its most difficult. VF4FT is in my opinion the most difficult fighting game ever. And there's no fighting game that really is even close to it. You're arguing that VF needs to change but it really doesn't. VF5FS was a major change and it was disastrous. The Japanese generally dislike the game and some players outright loathe the game. Just look at the Japanese playerbase....it has more than halved since the VF4FT days.

VF needs to return to its roots. VF6 needs to play as close to VF3 and VF4 as it can and move away from the poor choices that Sega made with VF5FS. I see a lot of players complaining (rightfully so) about VF5FS on this site and wanting VF to change. But the best 'change' would be for Sega to simply revert back to VF4FT and give us that game in HD. If you played enough VF4FT you'd see that VF didn't really need to change. It was perfect.

 

Now this is the level of discussion I was hoping for. A few dogmatic statements aside, you have a pretty level head and do a good job of explaining things.

My only issue with backdash evade is that it doesn't do enough to solve the issue I'm talking about. Yes, it makes ranges matter more and places more emphasis on poking in a smart way. The thing is that it doesn't really expand the utility of characters' movesets as much as it does expand the utility of movement, which is already quite strong in VF and 3D fighters in general. Not to mention that kind of whiff punishing is still present in Tekken (albeit executed a bit differently) and it's still falling short of what 2D fighters have done in this arena for years.

 

I do want to point out one thing here:

This absolutely correct. The genre as a whole is only moving forward, even if there have been some rough patches in recent years. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.

 

Again, thank you myke for taking the words out of my mouth.

As if backdash whiff punish doesnt exist anymore!?!

Not saying that FT wasnt perfect, but some of the points have not changed in FS, In fact, pretty sure the specific backdash low punch, whiff punish is still fairly common.

 

-You know that the range game in DOA is virtually as rewarding as the close range game, but your exact reasons why are not correct. The reason DOA has a more robust range game, is due to the game having a more significant use of knock back/down attacks, that also have a significantly more robust knock back system...to the point where it is labeled in the frame data guide!!! it is simple fact that attacks do not work the same as it does in VF with virtually all attacks having little to no push back. In DOA knock back distance is a major (gameplay) attack property) Knowing and having an understanding of each individual knock back range(attack), allows the player to have a more robust range game!!!. Knock back 1 meter and I am in mid range attack proximity. 2-3 meter knock back and I either need to use a long range attack, or I need to run up close....this is something that is true DOA, and sans VF! From said distance, I open up a new set of options and movies to force pressure on my opponent!!! The DOA player is constantly manipulating distance/range between each other with usage of said attacks. Also anything like 4 meters are more are basically attacks used to force a stage knock down, or to simply get an opponent out of your face(every single character has said attacks).

-Actually it is not. You are a well astute VF player! Any Well versed VF player as yourself knows that close range combat in VF is paramount!!! no exaggerations here. This is the exact reason why the beautiful game of VF4 EVO had all those delicious compound defensive techniques such as ETEG and the like!!!(You know I tried to find that shit in DOA, and it never got as intricate LMAO).

-I constantly see such statements being made to big up VF while making other fighters look shallow in comparison. If we just looked at these defensive options as if it were in VF than of course it looks very flaky and shallow, however, these other fighters are not VF, and do not in anyway shape or form use VF gameplay mechanics...no matter how similar they may seem to be on the surface! For one, DOA most definitely do gain frame advantage from a proper evade!!! Frame advantage is an exact result of when the evade was executed and the recover of said attack evaded. Since DOA is string heavy, you cannot simply use a step as you would in VF due to follow-up strings having either tracking properties, or are two frame tight to allow for any evades.

-Um that is incorrect. In DOA5, you are allowed the option of two different methods of evading. Simple /or or . also,in DOA, an evade must be used only against linear attacks, End of Strings, or when you are fully aware of an opponent using string delay(staggerd timing), and using it as an intterupt!.

-Umm just to be clear, You do not need evade dash cancel to close space after an evade in DOA! Honesty, I do not see anyone ever use SS to evade long range attacks. Infact, We DOA players are very accustomed to using Free Step Dodge(FSD) to evade such moves, with often great result of having an exposed back turned opponent!!! Also what many people truly forget about DOA in comparison to VF, many actions in the game actually draw you closer to your opponent...ex.. In DOA, each throw has its very own range...yes VF Has this, however if someone says do a Defensive hold, and I throw during the same period(success/non success), my throw will gain a significant amount of range( 1 meter -1.5 meters in distance) and pretty much slide in(reducing range) and throw my opponent!! This works for holds, throws and step(not attacks). Also players are able to execute two Side steps back to back to back until failure!!! also players are also able to combine Free step~Side Step to increase the range of evasion. There are so many DOA specific nuances to mention. This is not to pare down VF, but just to open some of you guys eyes that DOA is not VF lite, and once you accept that you cannot use VF as a tool to judge DOA, you will finally see that DOA is its own fighter. Think about it this way. If say DOA players were to simple judge VF on exactly DOA play style and mechanics, VF will be seen as the shallow incomplete fighter!!!

-We as two great communities will do much better once we truly set aside all our differences, not be afraid to say yes I am ignorant in other fighters yet I do prefer and enjoy VF/DOA/TK etc. Once we let said egos go, we can let our communities be free of strife and allow true cross pollination to occur!!!

 

At risk of seeming pedantic, I will respond once more to this thread, but I will try to keep things concise.

@Myke: I did not need backdash punishing pointed out to me, lol. VF is hardly the only game that has it so I don't know why you would think that. I was more pleasantly surprised that someone took the time to explain how a certain mechanic works and why it's pertinent to this discussion because nobody had done it yet (at that level of detail, at least).

For what it's worth, I don't entirely disagree with you either. Obviously there is the utility of beating movement options and that plays a big role in 3D fighters. Where we separate is the extent to which spacing affects how useful it is.

Tell me: if you read something that you know you can punish, are you really that concerned with how close or far away from the opponent you are? Do you really care that much about positioning after a punish as long as you can still land a combo or are still at frame advantage? Not to say that your distance from the opponent doesn't matter at all, but is it not secondary to converting your read into either a combo or mixup?

Compare this to any 2D fighter, particularly any airdash game, and you'll find that you would gladly give up frame advantage if it meant being at a range where you could still feasibly hit the other guy. Obviously this means you can't be at too much of a disadvantage, either, otherwise you'll get punished.

I still think VF has the best close range game of any fighting game there is, and the historical significance of the series cannot be denied. Past being the first 3D fighter even, it practically invented the reverse nitaku game that we see in nearly all fighting games today.

The issue is that we now have games that are nearly as deep in this regard, and well exceed the depth of VF in many others.

An easy way to think of it is that a game like Guilty Gear may be quite as rich in terms of the reverse nitaku game, but it has many different reverse nitaku games that all exist at their own unique ranges. Overall, this adds to a richer experience, even if that one aspect of the game is slightly inferior.

One of the biggest issues I have with Xrd is that it seriously dumbed down the corner game by increasing blockstun and pushback on moves. Not only does this make the offensive game less interesting by giving you less variety in how you hit people (read: less effective ranges), it makes the defensive game less interesting by giving you less ways to escape. So now we have Blitz Shield, the latest successor in a long line of stupid parry mechanics that have plagued fighting games for far too long.

In other words, you are playing a game with less different guessing games (caused by having less effective ranges) and less interesting guessing games, too (caused by less defensive options). So instead of being like a 3D fighter and having an awesome close range game at the expense of having a variety of effective ranges, we have a lackluster close range game and a lackluster ranged game.

If these complaints seem at all reminiscent of the ones SF2 players had about SF3, you are on the right track. Because that is basically what Xrd is to XX; a simpler, less intensive game that focuses more on raw reaction than on predictive skill. Given the legacy of the series, it is a damn shame, and I can only hope things improve from here.

I'll stick around for a bit to respond to any serious inquiries.

 

This isn't a serious inquiry but..... I haven't herd of "Reverse Nitaku" before.

What is it ? Should I be glad or upset if theres more or less of it in a game ?

 

Quash, did you just discover the dictionary? How can one type so much with so little substance? Shocking!

 

Thanks @Myke
LoL okay so I'm familiar with the concept..... I just didn't know it had its own term.

 

i think the point of his whole article is that he wants a 3d airdash that emphasises on throws and flight

 

LoL.... you mean like the Naruto Games ?

 

Lol. A 3D airdasher is pretty much a gundam or naruto-like game. SCV is about as far as I'll go with reference to long-range combat in 3D fighters.

 

@Myke It seems we see eye to eye on this, as expected.

So now we have to ask: what if there was a way to make the distance between players matter more in these situations? What if instead of playing basically the same guessing game (give or take an option like throwing/2P), we could play several different guessing games based on range? This is where the airdash games and the mech games are kicking VF/Tekken's collective ass.

 

I am glad to see more people understanding what I'm saying, too. I honestly don't care if people agree with my view or not, as long as they can understand why someone would have that view.