New tekken5 version coming?

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Myke said:
Come on man, we do just as much bitching and moaning about changes in VF! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Somewhat true but I was mostly paying attention to the console owners griping about buying a new version for home. Don't they realize this is an arcade upgrade and prolly wont be available on console anytime soon if at all?

 

Tekken 5 help please!

I have a couple of questions for the Tekken players here.

On Saturday I got T5 as a present (before that the last Tekken I played was T2).

Is it just me or is the AI a joke? I did not want to start picking up bad habits as I tried to learn the game, so I set the difficulty to Ultra Hard, practiced a couple of moves (picked Steve) and then played Arcade mode.
The problem is that the A.I. in the game is shit. Since Saturday afternoon I have played probably about 200 matches. AFAIK the game doesn't keep any stats but the ratio must be around 180-20. I have beaten Tekken Lords, Champions, Deities, Virtuosos, Warlords (and some other ranks I don't remember).

Since I am obviously a SHIT Tekken 5 player (having played it for a grand total of 2 days) I am not at all impressed with the AI.

As a comparison, 4 Evo was the 1st VF game I really played. The thought of winning against a 4 Evo Champion AI on standard difficulty on the second day after I picked up the game is ridiculous! Some Kage and Lei AIs are no pushovers even today!

So from your experiences, is is possible to get a basic competence of the game by playing against the AI or am I screwed with out human comp? I realise that it is impossible to become good without human comp, but one of the best things about 4 Evo is the fact that one can get a basic competence of the game by playing quest and arcade (on the hardest setting).

Additionally, if anybody could give out a couple of general strategy pointers on how to play T5 for people coming from a VF background, I would be really grateful (I know there are sites like tekkenzaibatsu, but as I have played virtually nothing but 4 Evo since July 2003, it would be easier if somebody who also plays VF could give some advice.

And a couple of final questions:
From what I have gathered thus far, throws don't seem to be playing as big a role as in VF. Is that a correct assessment?

The overall focus seems to be on all out attack. Everytime the AI launches me, I can kiss goodbye to at least half my bar.

I saw that King has these rather complicatd but also very damaging combo throws. Are they at all feasible against human comp or do people always escape (hence there's no real need to learn them).

Any info would be greatly appreciated, many thanks in advance.

SCS

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

Right.

The AI is SHITE in Tekken, try to never play the CPU in Tekken EVER, it's all about 2 player.

You have to remember Tekken 5 is a broke as fuck game IMHO. Almost as broke as MVC2, actually, maybe worse!

Tekken is a game with major tiers (like MVC2) and picking certain character's will NORMALLY always tip the scales to your advantage.

The best characters (WHICH HAVE BEEN PROVEN IN ALL THE TOP TOURNAMENTS). BTW This is for home version, not the 5.1 revision, which I wish was being ported for home release!

1. Steve.
Main Strengths. df+2. Juggles on normal hit. df+2,2 for crouchers. Sway's can duck/evade load's of moves and score MC's. Top throws, okizeme, loads of safe as fuck moves. High damage wall combos. Punch Parry. Nuff Said.

2. Bryan.
A filth character if there ever was one. Easily the most improved character in Tekken 5. Best wall damage in the game. Can take 60 off a sweep (df+3). Decent throw game (now with ff+1+2). Also has db+3 for a 'decent' low. Also has 3+4 for a safe mid. Oh and bloody b+1 which is +3 on block. Punch Parry. Teef teef teef.

3. Nina.
Ms high crush, Ms Safe-as-fuck. Best throw's in the game. Best Okizeme in the game. Decent Wall push ability/ decent damage. Reversals. And the acursed Uf+1.

4. Feng.
The new Ogre. Plain and simple. Can take nearly half a bar off an almost safe ss+4 (only ws+4 punishalbe!). Loads of mid's, so hard to high crush. High damage juggles. Parries to loads of free damage.

5. Heihachi.
Easily the best mishima. Obviously EWGF is good, even though it can be high crushed. 2,2,1 to punish almost any move on block. High damage juggles. Can Wavedash. df+1+2 goes under so many moves. Spamtastic df+1,1. qcf+1 (new throw) pushes back so much it's scary. Evil, in the right hands.

Other Characters of note:
Wang: A little too punishable on block, but high damage juggles, waning moon throw, sick Okizeme and Loads of juggle starters make him a contender.

Law: Great juggler, UF+4 safe(!) on block, loads of other safe pokes, db+3 juggles on counter (sick in Okizeme!). Great wall combo's as well.

That's all I can think of right now, just ask for anything else.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

I'm a Tekken scrub, but I'll say a few points.

It's more like CVS2, imho. I.e., you remove the top 3 or 4, and the gutter tier (Kuma), and you have a very playable game, and still quite a bit of selection of chars. And it's fun. Well, at least down here in the scrub/interm level.

Yes, AI sucks, esp if you have the god tier (steve).

Throws - yeah. They are slow (slower than jabs, I think the fastest is throw is 11 frames), and even if they are "guaranteed", you can duck them. Don't ask me how this is possible, but it is, and it effectively means that no throws are guaranteed. The throw escape window is also very late, i.e., some players can escape the throws on reaction. One big huge positive over VF throws, however, all throws are like VF catch throws. Having said all this, I think throws are pretty essential in the game, simply because as you've said, the damange potential from juggle combos is just so huge. I throw a lot. But you cannot really throw the AI for some stupid reason.

Some other big points- the evades aren't as effective as VF, but still vital. And only a few people have a crouch dash. The game does seem more offense oriented, but I've seen defensive players that are really tough to beat. I also think okizeme also plays a much larger role than VF. Actually I think with respect to oki, Tekken is superior to VF. And hopkicks, play a much larger role than in VF (the only role for hopkicks in VF that I know of, is for jumping over a grounded opp).

Other than that, I think it's same as VF, with respect to frames, mid/low/throw mixups, juggles, counter hits, etc.

I play Marduk, Asuka (aoi) and Ling (my orig char in during my brief TTT stint). Unless you want to win tourneys, I'd not bother with the top tier. They are just too broken, and not all that fun.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

Actually, I see what you mean about CVS2 instead of MVC2.

I use Nina against 'decent' opposition, but Paul (and to a lesser extent Wang) as my 'mains' in Casual play. Even though Paul is raped (at least in terms of Tournie level play) he's still my favourite and certainly my most used (especially in the arcade, I'm on my 2nd card with him!).

Although I've been pissed off with Namco since Ogre was removed!

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

heh, yeah. i'll admit that when competition really heats up, i resort to Feng. who is probably the scrubbiest top tier in the game (a la Blanka).

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

Thanks for the Info Slim and Agios, much appreciated!

Thanks for the CVS2 explanation (K' Sagat, all the way). So my first choice (Steve) truns out to be God Tier. Always nice when that happens.

The AI being shit is a problem though. Would you guys have any suggestions on how to train the game without human comp at all, or am just screwed until I find some peeps to play (problematic if you're a total beginner at a game).

Yes, I noticed oki being pretty important here, mainly because I ususally lose quite a bit of health even against the shitty AI whenever I hit the ground. The rising attacks seem a little too pwerful, though.

In any case, I'll keep playing T5 for fun a little longer because I do like the character design of Steve and Marduk quite a lot and wouldn't mind spending some time with them. Plus I have always loved to train combos and juggles in general.

Cheers again for the info.

SCS

PS: I'd love to see a boxer in VF5. It would be great to see what the AM2 boys and girls would implement this style. And a Marduk style chara, with improved Ground and Pound technizzel would also be sweet (no, Vanessa does NOT count!)

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

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agios_katastrof said:

heh, yeah. i'll admit that when competition really heats up, i resort to Feng. who is probably the scrubbiest top tier in the game (a la Blanka).

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Feng=Blanka LMAO.

Your right though, Feng really is the Ogre of this game, good to see him being toned down in the 5.1 revision. Steve is still meant to be a great character in 5.1 as well, even though he's been nerfed really bad.

I still like Nina loads as my 'main' though, even though she's dry as hell! Nina is blatantly like Sarah in VF, I'm not happy about her being completley raped in 5.1 though /versus/images/graemlins/tear.gif.

Still, Paul has got his d+41+2 Tekken 4 style Falling Leaf, so that has cheered me up a little bit.

At the end of the day, Tekken is just a 'fun' game for me, playing VF is still top dog IMHO.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

me, i have my Marduk nerfed of his d+1 and d+4, so i can't say that i'm too happy re: 5.1 i mean, what the? it's not like Marduk was destroying everybody. why the game developers continue to nerf the big guys, i haven't a clue.

stonecold - tz is a good place for info though. particularly the stickies under each char forum. pretty good compilation of combos, top 10 moves, strats, etc. and the marduk players over there have been pretty helpful to scrubs like myself. but they still don't have all of the frame data as of yet.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

[ QUOTE ]
agios_katastrof said:

me, i have my Marduk nerfed of his d+1 and d+4, so i can't say that i'm too happy re: 5.1 i mean, what the? it's not like Marduk was destroying everybody. why the game developers continue to nerf the big guys, i haven't a clue.

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Marduk is such an underrated character IMHO, remind's a little bit like T. Ogre. I'm glad d+1 is nerfed, although as long as he has his ff+1+2 throw, he'll always be a contender.

The one thing I don't get is why Lei has been raped further, it doesn't make sense AT ALL. (I don't actually remember, why kinda relegates my argument to BS, but hey!). Lei was a demon back in T3, and has been raped and raped again in all further installments. There doesn't seem to be any consistency, but I doubt the 5.1 revision will make it to console, so we can still be cheap as fuck at home! Good to see Kuma being beefed up (ff+2 is SAFE and pushes away on block in the new version!). BTW There is a really good Kuma player in the UK, who battered the shit outta me back in May at the UK tekken 5 finals (I won the Manchester Regional so could enter). I totally respect people who master the cellar dwellers, especially in Tekken!

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

Marduk is underrated, yeah. But I think he's solid mid tier at best. Ok, mebbe +6 on block was too much for d+1, but it was like the heart of my mixup game. Oh well.

f,f+1+2 is definitely a good move, and i certainly use it a lot. but for big ass launches, for some reason or another, it's easier to connect SSR + db+1+2 (somethign the tz guys told me).

yeah, Lei- i was really interested in the guy, but i just could not make the guy work. i don't understand the nerfing logic either. at least Feng seems really toned down.

and go Kuma!

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

[ QUOTE ]
agios_katastrof said:

Marduk is underrated, yeah. But I think he's solid mid tier at best. Ok, mebbe +6 on block was too much for d+1, but it was like the heart of my mixup game. Oh well.

f,f+1+2 is definitely a good move, and i certainly use it a lot. but for big ass launches, for some reason or another, it's easier to connect SSR + db+1+2 (somethign the tz guys told me).

yeah, Lei- i was really interested in the guy, but i just could not make the guy work. i don't understand the nerfing logic either. at least Feng seems really toned down.

and go Kuma!

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Marduk's SSR+1+2 is high crush heaven. I might start dabbling with him myself TBH, Tekken character's take about a week to learn (compared to months and months for VF). Although that's my opinion!

Good to see Heihachi losing 221 as well, and the Mishima's being beefed up again, it feel's strange them not being 'top tier' (i.e. in an alround way).

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

Just randomly, to give you an idea of ranking in T5 here's the series you go through (from top rank to bottom rank);

<ul type="square">
[*]Tekken Lord
[*]Deity
[*]Conqueror
[*]Warlord
[*]Sage
[*]Legend
[*]Champion
[*]Virtuoso
[*]Master
[*]Expert
[*]Shihan
[*]5th Dan-1st Dan
[*]1st Kyu-9th Kyu
[*]Beginner
[/list]

Ranking up in T5 on console is very simple (nothing like as hard as VF ranking up).

Through earlier ranks it seems you can level up by playing any rank, though it's best to match up ranks the same as yours.

Later on (around Shihan) it looks like you can rank up (or down) by winning/losing against players with the same rank as you or one rank up from you or one rank down from you...eg if you were on Deity, you could play Conqueror, Deity or Tekken Lord ranks to get to Tekken Lord.

And yes the AI is awful. Particularly if you're new to the game and don't appreciate what sick oki Nina or Raven have for example. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

I was shocked at how fast I ranked up. I played for a day and a half and ranked up to Champion. All the while criticising T5 and comparing it to VF.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

AI is awful? I think it's pretty dern smart sometimes. Even on Easy mode!

Ultra hard against a tekken lord Baek or Hwaorang is a nightmare to beat tho. Impossible to break them, lol. Still a fun game. AI is definatley better than VF. VF had a pattern where T5 doesn't.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

That's what I mean...the AI is just insane sometimes.

If you're new to Tekken paying the AI is awful as a lot of the time they'll end up streaming 10 hit strings on you all the time...yes even on easy, play the Tekken Lord ranks and they do this almost non stop. Feng AI uses max damage floats all the time and for small minor mistakes you get smashed.

I mean I was playing a Nina the other day, got floated for half my life, rolled back as I landed (normally a safe thing to do in VF) but got scooped back off the floor for almost half my life again as Nina's oki is so sick (and I'm having a hard time adjusting between VF and Tekken lol).

Just try and throw your AI opponent...nope won't happen, I've landed around 20 throws in about 2 weeks of solid play, 90% of the time the computer breaks them.

Another thing I dislike about Tekken is that big moves can often leave attackers on advantage...imagine if Akira's yoho or shrm left him on advantage!!?? You could spam them out all day.

Damage scaling in combos is odd too, I mean I think almost every char has at least one float that'll take half a bar. Plus landing near a wall, or sometimes even just landing on the floor can mean you'll be losing even more life as the AI pummels you even more. Paul's deathfist does 49 damage...49!!! That's not even on counter! Akira's yoho only reaches 45 on MC in evo.

It's a fun game like you say, but really it's best played against humans, the AI can only take your game so far and is annoying as hell sometimes.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

hehe yea. Best to play humans tho I won't play this game against the pro's. I'll leave it to them. That and I can't play Tekken on a stick to save my life, the right kick button never gets touched cos I'm so used to having my hands in the VF position, lol.

Nina's combo's are crazy and un TR'able sometimes, lol. Thank god it's fixed in the new 5.1. I like to play as Lee, Feng and Ganryu. In most cases, with the CPU, once I launch them with Lee, I can force them to the wall and take off exactly 2/3's of their health, lol. Quite sick.

I saw the manchester crew play the game when they were in London Troc last time. They're very good players. Slimadey too. I didn't play cos I had lil knowledge of the game and new combo's back then. So I was just looking at what combo's can be done etc. Now the PS2 version is out in the UK, I can practise combo's etc. I have yet to face my cousin on it who's very good with Yoshi.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

Yeah, Nina's u/f+1 reeks of broken-ness! LOL Very nasty.

Ade's played Tekken properly for a very long time and there's a very strong Manchester scene for Tekken up here...VF is almost extinct. Ade's actually got all chars up to Tekken Lord rank too. Addict. I've got Kaz, Devil Jin n Feng to Tekken Lord but by god sometimes the AI made me feel like tearing my hair out.

The learning curve in VF4evo's quest mode is non-existant in T5.

I'm a bit of a whipping boy in manchester when it comes to Tekken really but I only like playing it for a laugh, VF is the only fighter I take seriously.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

I hate the throw-invicible AI... argh. They duck or break every single throw automatically. TZ marduk players state that the AI reads button presses... which I can believe, which is one stupid way to program the AI. Whatever edge Tekken has over VF, VF kills it with respect to the AI and single player. Actually, recently, I've just switched the AI to easy mode, since you can actually throw them then. I think this is actually better for practice and I think playing the Tekken AI at difficult modes, will actually decrease your Vs skills.

And the top tier.. it's just ridiculous..

All that said, everybody still seems to have a lot of fun with the game. I'm actually not entirely sure what makes Tekken so fun. It's one broken ass game. But man, something about the flash and the looney chars and easy damage and crazy oki.. it just makes it fun.

 

Re: Tekken 5 help please!

In high level play, you rarely see throws. They just aren't worth the risk/reward in Tekken. Therefore the computer breaking all throws actually makes sense. You shouldn't play this game like VF. Forget about throwing, just find your characters best launcher and set up your opponent. That seems like the game in a nutshell.

Oh, and don't forget to learn to wavedash, as that will allow you to perform good launchers while dodging the opponent's stuff. If you don't know what wavedashing is, look it up. In all other Tekkens (to the best of my knowledge) wavedashing was key to playing the game well.