NYG3 report

Dont be so sensitive Piccolo, I'm just kindly asking you to post only about things pertaining to NYG3. Not to mock my enthusiasm about VF in america. I fully understand the level of play in Japan. But there is no need for your negativity.

 

ah , cmon dude, you calling me sensitive???? look who's talking.
I really wasnt being critical. and i wasnt mocking you. what's YOUR problem?

jesus, talk bout sensitive. lets just end it here k?

 

Piccolo is just mad because I owned him and two other people up alone in UT. /versus/images/icons/shocked.gif

 

not at ctf - muuAHhahAHahH!!#!@ reedemer kamikaze! MAD SK1LLZ!

 

hahaha, good one /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

you mean WE owned YOU, lol . i see you still want your revenge eh hehe.

 

I asked Sal (Piccolo) to post this since my IE keeps shutting down on me.



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Since my computer is feeling alright, I guess I can try to write something about NYG3. At first, I was not going to NYG3 since I thought it would not worth the money and time I would have to spend. Shang from Boston was kind enough to give me a lift from Hartford to Riverhead on both ways. Also, Adnan wanted me to be there, and thus I changed my mind and went down to NY on Friday.



When I got there, first I played with FL people as they were about to go to bed. Blonde one was the first one to play with. His Jacky was aggressive and had good techniques. Needs more small skills. (i.e. use of d+P, etc.) And, next, IMF. Well, I was pretty much impressed about how people were talking about him and also was happy about the fact that he appreciated my notes. Anyway, he was better than I thought. Defensive like Adnan (Adamyuki.) Funny that the best Akira players are both defensive. Shang has a very aggressive style with Akira, and I told them that they had things to learn from each other. I wanted to play with Adnan, but Andy told us, NY people, not to play with each other, since he wanted to show the result…(Thus, Adnan and I had to play with each other late at night after people went to bed…) Honestly, I don’t care about the record, winning percentage etc. Sure, some may have higher winning rate, but they did not play with me or Adnan very much. IMF, on the other hand, tried to play with us much more, which in turn lowered his winning rate, but who cares!!

Also, the tournament was OK, and I appreciate the effort Andy and Owen put into. But, still I think that I should have been able to play on the side, not in the tournament. There has been some heat between Andy and FL people etc., but I have nothing to do with it. Though Andy and some other people wanted to prove themselves, I did not have such a desire. Just wanted to play with people as I only had less than two days. Round robin was OK, but it’s not like everyone wanted to play against everyone else. Personally, I would enjoy only playing with people who can give me some challenge or who are trying hard to get better. Also, after I played once, I had to wait for a long time!! It took my motivation to keep playing. Also, going back to the character selection after each match was a big pain considering how slow VF4 on PS2 is. After Round Robin, some people decided to go to eat. And did not come back for a while. In a mean time we were waiting and playing with each other. Then, when they come back, we had to shut off the set-up we were using. They kept us waiting and when they came back, they did not let us play any more…After shutting off all the set-ups except for one, we had to wait for Adnan to come out of the bathroom. Why?? I would prefer to play with other set-ups, while we were waiting. What kind of difference would it make? Also, people who could not proceed to the round of 16 had to wait until the whole thing was over. It is not very nice at all. We were there only for a couple of days, and some people did not allow us to do what we went down there for. Well, they could have had a tournament among people who are interested in it. It is not fair to hold people for such a long time, when we had only a short time and there were unused set-ups. After the tournament was terminated, some people were too tired to play. Also, what some people here need is to play more and get more experienced. Not a tournament to show off what they got. I had said that I did not want to take part in the tournament for the above reasons. If next time, every one except me want to be in a tournament, I will go outside and smoke. Then, with an extra set-up, I can play with people who lost in it.



Over all, I could not play freely as much as I wanted. I know I enjoyed the past NYG’s more, though the gathering itself was fun, seeing old faces and meeting new people. Most of them were very nice and fun to talk to. And that’s why I wanted to play more. I may sound rude here, but I thought of posting this so that people of different interest can enjoy more at gatherings.



Hiro

 

Thank you to sal for posting this.

Hiro, I just wanted to pass on that I'm glad you decided to say that the tournament wasn't as important as the hosts wanted to make it. I thought I was alone in this idea, or that it was a scrubby way to think. However seeing a good player with the same opinion makes me feel better. (I also did not want to sound critical of adam and andy, who worked hard to make the gathering happen).

Players like me and several others don't have enough people to play against and need as many games as possible, and it would be better if they were fun games rather than serious, safe tournament matches.

I can see why someone like andy or adam would take the tournament very seriously, and wanted to make sure every win and loss was recorded, etc. Either of them could be the best player at the gathering - on a good day. But for others who can't beat everyone even on a good day, it's not important at all. That's why I left my memory card sitting in my hotel room, I didn't really want to prove anything...

Well, that's all I wanted to say. Thanks again to andy and adam. Even if this post sounds like complaining, it was actually more fun than I've had in months and months. I don't object to tournaments at gatherings, but the point about having extra unused setups is a good one - maybe next time let the tournament be amongst those who want it, and let other machines keep running for those who want to mess around.

 

For the record, I always preferred gathering-style play to tournaments. I initially wanted just a GATHERING, but Andy convinced me that it would be more exciting (and more of a draw) to hold a tournament. So, i gave Andy and Llanfair total autonomy to run tourney and make DVD as they saw fit. I just wanted to focus on making sure my guests were as comfortable as i could possibly make them, and to make sure i got to play as much as possible. I now feel awful about people who couldnt make it to the finals and could not fire up a couple of the other un-used setups. That said, i think the memory card rule was fine. I had fun with promotion/demotion matches and loved seeing who had the biggest cock. /versus/images/icons/smirk.gif I think it just adds to the intensity.

We have learned from our mistakes, and next gathering/tournament should be better. I'll arrange it so we have more time in meeting room, one more set-up, free housing (if it takes place during off-peak season)...

Thanks to everyone who attended. I was so dismayed when it was drawing to a close /versus/images/icons/frown.gif We had tons o laughs, bonded a whole bunch, and played till our brains were fried. Ah.................thats the life /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

This NYG was the first that I attended. It definitely was very eye opening to me to see a totally different kind of VF players. I wasn't disappointed at all with the level of play. Yes it is true that there should be a couple of changes on how the gathering would operate. The mem card rule was fun, though even if it wasn't mandatory, most of us would still have used it. (Except CreeD of course /versus/images/icons/grin.gif )

I agree that the tournament was a little disappointing, not that is was poorly ran, but that many of the people present were simply not very interested. Llanfair ran it very nicely, even though I (seeded last) had to play one of the top seeded player in the first round hehe. There was nothing wrong with the way it was ran, but the tourney being mandatory and the fact that it took away from other people's playing time was what made it intruding to other players.

On the subject of accommodation, it could hardly be better. The playing room was very roomy and there were enough chairs and spaces for everyone. Huge props for Adnan and Andy for getting the projectors, they were an awesome addition for the gathering. If you didn't make it, you missed out playing on huge screens /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif . The only complaint I would say is that there were not enough setups for the amount of people we had. It would certainly have been more fun for alot of people to have available set up to use when they lose to the likes of Hiro and other skilled players.

I have some ideas for the next gathering, it would certainly be useful for the organizers to have an updated list of what equipments have been secured and what else is needed or would like to have present. If Andy had told people that there are only 4 setups I'm sure people would have brought more tv's or ps2's with them. I certainly would have. It would also be great if there was some kind of character workshop. Like have one setup dedicated to a certain character, with users sharing ideas and showing strategies, etc.. rotated every 1 or 2 hours, going through the characters. My impression with the attendees at NYG was that most everyone were very willing to share their knowledge, and building on that notion with character workshops would have been very constructive for all the players there I'm sure.

It was a little disheartening at the closure of my trip to NYG when I had to leave, because it was so much fun to be able to play so much VF with other passionate players. I definitely enjoyed meeting many of you, and my VF play has definitely improved. (At least I think so) Hopefully at the next gathering many of us attendee's can get more involved with the whole event. Such as deciding on the activties and events, etc. It would be nice if it took place when many of us has a longer break. 4 days though is a good length imo. NYG3 was a great experience, let make the next one even better! /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif I'll see you all on irc at #vfhome!

p.s. all you people on the forums... come talk to us on #vfhome!

 

Since many people said enough about the appreciation for the setup, I would just like to mention I appreciate Owen for his organization effort. I doubt we would have made that far without his energy and I was sorry to see what happened.

But here is some thought that came to me: I was personally looking forward to 3on3 (or such) tournament more than the ind tourney. Owen was planning to hold that I believe, but things pretty much ran out of steam. I have this suspicion that 3on3 or other similar format events are popular in Japan and Korea because it's FUN. Such events between the "teams" are the lifeblood of the Korean VF scene from what I hear. I can see how this can involve mid-level players more--those who don't necessary have shot at winning individual tourney.
But then again, they do this on arcade machine where you don't have to deal with loading time. I saw the points from people who wanted to just play and the people who wanted to create an event that involve people. And I couldn't help but wonder if 3on3 or such format would have been more involving. (Given that such format seem to be popular across the ocean.)

I do have a warm memory of some of the early VF2 tourneys I have been to. But my memory of that kind of tourney become progressively worse as time passed. I verified that I am not alone. Maybe it's something I mentioned in other thread: We are jaded. We just want to play. We now have little tolerance for any other stuff.

That brings me to the idea about "workshop": Long time ago more people were excited about writing FAQs, organizing tourneys/events and so on. Just look at the amount of VF2 FAQs written back then. Where are all those people who wrote those FAQs. No one can accuse Rich of being apathetic given the amount of literature he produced. I tried to do my share of work. But at end, just like the tourneys, it seems people ended up losing interest. We just want to play. When not playing we just want to gossip. We ended caring not so much about other things. We hardly write any FAQs or care about training more players. Not saying there are no people trying. Heck I tried. (Also witness the present apathy toward CTF arcade among NY people, and the apathy of some top players toward playing with lesser players.) Would people care enough to set up some kind of formalized workshops? I have my doubts.

Sorry if I paint a little bleak picture. However I did notice a gap between Owen's outward energy as a tourney organizer, his optimistic outlook about the future of VF in NA after Evo coming out, and what I felt from the crowd. (Would Evo make difference? Not for us unless it comes out in Boston. My honest feeling.)

Of course, people had great fun playing in the gathering. But this nagging feeling that there is not much left to go from here. And I know I was not alone in this feeling. (Part of the reason I suggested to Boston crew that we should start playing other characters--not just Akira/Jeff/Jacky/AdInfinitum--to make things more interesting, as we drove back. Do we really care about winning at this stage?)


Well, probably I will still come to the next NYG. I lost count of how many times I have said that I will quit after this tourney/gathering, but still coming to the next event I can find.

 

Hey, something we agree on /versus/images/icons/crazy.gif
...I'd forgotten about the 3on3, and thinking about it now, it's perfect.
-people with less skill can compete and still feel like they won, even if another team member had to do the hard work.
-You're involving six people automatically in a 3on3, and with 5 PS2's, we could have 6 people at each and have nobody just wandering around wishing they could participate.
-It gives everyone a chance to play with and against better players, players who might otherwise be interested more in facing people at the same skill level.

So.... the bad news is I think andy is burned out from the tournament. He feels organizing these things is overly thankless - because in previous gatherings, he was criticised for not having a tournament, and for nyg3 he's getting a little flak for having a tournament. That doesn't tell the whole story, and I'm sorry if this point seems out of left field... but I think it's something andy really wanted to say.

So anyway, some ideas for adam next time (or whoever)
Memory cards are only mandatory for tournament play -
The tournament itself will be a 3v3 -
If the number of people who want to play isn't a multiple of three, a few can drop out voluntarily to even things up.

This gives you the competitiveness of a tournament without so much pressure, since you're on a team and winning or losing isn't entirely up to you. I think the ideal system is to drop pieces of paper in a hat to determine who's paired up with whom, and then, if it doesn't take too long, double elimination for each team.

 

Well I think your comment about having five set ups to keep six players busy is a little bit wishful. You would still need to have six players in front of one machine, waiting for turns. That's why I mentioned about arcade machine: Loading time on PS2 is still an issue as after each match, winner will stay but a new player will have to come in to challenge. But again, other advantages of the set up that you mentioned stand, and I was looking forward to it as I have never actually participated in one of those set ups.

 

well, I guess that sets the tone...

My 10 cents.

People here at VFDC are in constant desire to get better at the game. It's something we all wish for. A big part of that is the standard we set by observing the japanese players through videos, etc. And guess how they play the damn game? In tournaments. A lot. They don't sit around and bash heads against the same guy over and over. They wait until their turn and try again. This is what we are used to here in Toronto, primarily because our VF scene is often an arcade experience. That's where I'm coming from. I guess the VF scenes elsewhere are not, or have no desire to be remotely similar.

No offense to anyone, but imo I think 'gatherings' are a waste of time. Tournaments, on the other hand, drive competition, enhance the excitement of the game, and are a much better representation of people's skills. But this is my opinion. I'm surprised people felt forced into playing in the tournament and I apologize now if your felt pressured, etc. But if you go on feeling that tournaments are not your kind of VF experience then, imo, you're missing out. Hiro, you felt as though people were miffed by having to *watch* the double elimination instead of playing on other stations? Wow, you see, I'm surprised people didn't WANT to watch it. See all those people in the japanese tournament videos? Cheering, hollering, intently WATCHING the tournament.

So, anyway. I apologize to anyone who felt as though their NYG3 experience was not as good as it could've been had we just 'kept on playin' " instead of taking the time to have a tournament. I was pissed that the tourney didn't even finish properly, to be honest. Pissed that people just didn't give a shit about it anymore. Pissed that some people weren't even fucking willing to make an effort to support it. I held my tongue and played on - "just for fun, just for fun".

If VF is to remain a tournament-less experience in the USA - fine, have fun guys. But, to all those who liked that part of NYG3, you're all welcome in Toronto.

 

Re: well, I guess that sets the tone...

You bring up very good points Llan. If we hadn't had a tournament, people would have been bitching as well. Sigh...ya just can't win. But you did an amazing job - i don't know if i told that already! /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

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Tournaments, on the other hand, drive competition, enhance the excitement of the game, and are a much better representation of people's skills

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This is true, IF you have tournaments regularly (like u guys do in TO). However, for gatherings that take place once a year, among people who for the most part don't take part in tournaments in their local playing circle, gathering-style play is more desirable. They simply aren't used to playing in that environment and it can affect their performance.

Furthermore, because they travel once a year to a gathering, they would like to get as much play time as possible - and tournament-style play doesn't really allow that. I think that is what Hiro/Creed were concerned about (unless we had other set-ups going). Should NYG3 have been comprised of MANY little tournaments? Maybe...as then people can get used to the tourney atmosphere, and we will see who consistently makes it to finals or wins. But one tournament once a year is not the best representation of a player's skills IMO, expecially if most of the participants never play in tournaments regularly!

 

Re: well, I guess that sets the tone...

Llanfair, you point about tournament promoting competition to make players better is totally valid. Competition is the main ingredient that drives people to better themselves in fighting games, however, 1 vs 1 tourney that we had at NYG3 did not fully promote that atmosphere in my opinion. I feel that some of the participants need not wish to be in the tournament simply because winning means nothing to them. For those, they'd rather be playing a more variety of styles and playing for winning. A type of event that promotes competition and nurtures a need to improve in players, however, is still a good idea for NYG.
I am totally for getting better at VF playing, and that was one of my prime reason for attending NYG3, but the conditions were just not fully right for fulfilling that goal at the gathering. Yes, people were sharing ideas and knowledge with each other, but sometimes it felt like players were excluding other players in some aspects whether it'd be a difference in skills or even just a lack of desire to socialize. My previous post about a type of workshop can be too restrictive for many, that is true. That idea was simply a rough implementation of a higher goal that I have in mind. That thought appeared in my head as a result of hearing much complaints about the 1vs1 tourney. A 3 on 3 type of play, even if not as a tournament would remedy this situation some at the very least. A team based type of play will at least give players a common goal and reason to give it their all. The teams should be somewhat mixed and randomized so to avoid a situation where again players excluding other players for various reasons. In a team based situation, each member is a valuable asset. This should promote an atmosphere where a more skilled player will WANT to help out a less skilled player to increase the chances of their team because team member are all playing as a team, not to just themselves. The same should apply to the less skilled player where he of she will have to try hard to not ruin the chances of the team.
Of course there can be a problem to this theory if people show up with an apathetic attitude. This can occur for various reason. For example, teammembers that are strangers to each other might create this attitude. Teammembers that have a drastic difference in skill might create this attitude. A lack of desire to be part of a team might create this attitude. These are all problems that completely brings down the advantages of team based competition. They can be avoided, however, from proper planning and voluntary participation. First of all, people that make the effort to go to NYG already shows that there is a desire to play VF with other players, no one is going to show up and not care about playing VF. So the apathy problem is mostly solved there. Team selection can take on a variety of themes, such as all sarah team, or heavyweight players, all pads team, etc. This will ensure that the teammembers all have something in common, so to minimize problems. Having a team based event is an alternative to the workshop idea that I had in my previous reply. Team play is probably an even better idea because it makes discussions and idea sharing even more focused and relevant.
While I might have hit a few nerves by my comments about what I felt at NYG3, I am not criticizing the more veteran VF player for a lack of passion to expand this hobby, as I have also played VF since VF1. I do find a need, though, to make gatherings such as NYG to be a much more social and rewarding experiece for the attendees. In some ways I am speaking for myself in a selfish way, because there are some who simply just want to play and not to bother with everything else. There is nothing wrong with thinking that way, yet I do feel that NYG can definitely benefit from a more social atmosphere. Not just to accomodate new players to VF, but I truly believe the veteran players can benefit from it also. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

Re: well, I guess that sets the tone...

Your point about tournaments is entirely valid, and what isn't said in one explicit sentence (but I'm sure you wanted to get across) is that "Playing in tournaments will make you a better player than playing to fool around with friends"

The implication seems to be that people in favor of more casual play at the expense of tournament play need to think about what they're missing and where their priorities are.

Still there's a hole in your argument. In America, the opportunity for casual play vs. friends is small and infrequent. Those of us who can afford to play every day at an arcade and don't have work interference still don't play every day, or our buddies can't, or the arcade closes too early, or there's no arcade in the area, or an hour+ drive turns us off. Whatever the reason, the end result is that Americans don't get nearly as much casual fooling-around time as others. NY, FLA, and possibly CA are exceptions, but they're tiny, piddly exceptions... ~4-7 players in each. Whereas the average japanese VF player can get eight hours of casual play vs 30 other average japanese players in many, many different arcades.

My overall point is that the RATIO of casual games to tournament games for americans is skewed due to the lack of regular competition. Gatherings afford a chance to do both, but still, out of chibita's 15,000 games, there might be.. what, less than 1% tournament games? (I'm not gonna count beating up women and children in 100 man kumite matches as tournaments). And chibita can always play VF until he's sick of it, over 50 matches a day by our calculations...right?
OTOH, If I'm starved for matches... ANY matches.... then maybe you can see how I'd prefer to play casually rather than watch seriously. Maybe coming from a relatively thriving VF scene where casual games can be arrange on at least a one-a-week basis, you might not see things the same way.

 

Re: well, I guess that sets the tone...

*Sigh* here is my 2 cents!

I totally agree with Llan. I think that everyone who comes to this forum is dying to get to the high level of play as the japanese players. But like Llan said the only way your going to aquire that skill is to become dedicated. Wait I don't think he said that, bah anyways! Dedicated at learning, practicing, and most importantly traveling around to play against DIFFERENT people with DIFFERENT styles of play. That is the only way to become as good as them. Sitting at home playing your best buddy over and over is not making you a really good player. Sure you get better, and it gets more difficult for him to beat you. But believe me you are only getting better at a EXTREMELY slow rate. This the reason I constant quit player for weeks. However, when you are exposed to many different people and the different style of play that they bring to the game. That will get you to the high level of play that you want to get to even faster. Why? Well, because now your not just looking for that one thing that your buddy likes to do all the time. Each match that you play will be fresh, which means you finally get to use all the knowledge about the game and the character that your going up against in your brain. Instead of just studying all this frame stat crap, and not using it, because it's not neccassary against your buddy. What everyone is constantly looking over is that playing against the same people over and over again is only teaching you how to beat there pattern. And don't say I don't fight with a pattern, because we all do. We all have these little things that we rely on to help us win. Keeping that in mind, being exposed to more players, will give you the opportunity to see much more things that the game has to offer, because no 2 patterns are the same. In my heart I honestly believe that is why team Florida did so well. I truely believe that when they play each other they treat each match like it's fresh. Not being scared to expierment with new things / techniques to make themselves better. I bet winning the match is the last thing on there minds when they play each other, because in the end they know when it comes down to it, against other players not in their group they can get the win. That is why they were able to easily adjust to most of the players at NYG3 so quickly. If that's what they do, "GOOD JOB guys", can I come live with you in Florida?
Llan before I forget, I want to say thanks for helping out with the tourney. I also wish it had went the full length. It was fucking pissing me off that people were not coperating. Everyone that came, knew NYG3 was about EVERYONE doing EVERYTHING together, not about what the INDIVIDUAL wanted to do. With that in mind if you knew you were going to piss on some of the things, why in the world did you FUCKING come? Seriously everyone should think about how selfish they were acting during the tournament time. Sure I was tired as well, but fuck. It's a gathering, your going to have to do some things that you don't want to do. DONE WITH THAT!
Over all though, I had a really good time. I really loved meeting everyone, old and new! I honestly can't wait to see you all again. Hopefully real soon. I would give my impression of the players that I played against, but this is already to long and I have a headache. Maybe later tonight! But what I can tell you is that next time we meet, I WILL BE THE MAN TO BEAT! hehehe I didn't mean to make that rhyme! /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

Re: well, I guess that sets the tone...

Thanks for the compliment Rodney. You're welcome to come live with us anytime my homie. /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

Re: well, I guess that sets the tone...

I don't know. One thing I noticed was that many players only played like two or three players at max. I played 7 different characters while I was up there and I learned a ton. I wish I would have a chance to play you Rodney, but I was so sick by the end of the trip, I needed to rest. But thanks for the sarah tips. That helped me out a lot. imf, jedi and blonde one experiment a lot when they play. You hit it on the nose rodney.

 

Re: well, I guess that sets the tone...

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I bet winning the match is the last thing on there minds...

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Puuuh-leeeeez! I know the Florida krew. The reason why they did so well is cause they give a DAMN about winning - winning at all cost!. Hehe...a philosophy true to my own, i might add! Tis the way of Maverick, Goose, Iceman, and Slider. Niggaz betta rekkonize. Yes playing new players is preferrable, but u cannot discount the value of hardcore training, even though it is mostly within the same circle of players! Why? Simply cause for those that want it, their killer instinct (mental stamina), and reaction time is improved. So that, no matter what new style they may face, moves/situations will look familiar to them, and as such, they can take advantage - they won't hesitate, cause they've been honed to react. Don't get me wrong, playing new players constantly is ideal, but "inbred play" has its strong points. (Again, look to Florida krew as example).

Peace. I gotta find Viper.....