Online 3D Fighter

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agios_katastrof said:
yeah, vf5 better be online... there's really no excuse for it, with the next gen PS and whatnot.

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Well AM2 might lose the billions of dollars they pull in from the American arcade scene /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. One of the reason DOA can afford to be online, is that is has no established arcade scene, if SC2 were online it would lose money, but could potentially make it up from console sales. Also, I wouldn't mind if they charged money, but they'd have to give us alot of nifty functions and strat tracking to make paying worth it (and they've basically done that in the arcade scene over in Asia).

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and here's another thing, online fighters which are pretty much exclusively on consoles, have one particuarly huge advantage over most RTS/FPS games that are on pcs. that is, a big factor in lag is that annoying person in your game with a weak ass computer. his poopity 486 is trying to calc all the shyte, and dragging everybody down with it. but on consoles, first everybody has the same hw, plus consoles are sooooo much more efficient than pcs.

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Well true we all have the same hardware (sort of, some PS2s have different drivers and other minor details that are different), but that doesn't mean squat when you are talking internet connectivity. If I play you on my hella-fast Road Runner connection, and you have 56k, that's where the lag really begins to come into play.

I also disagree with consoles being more efficient than PC's, my PC is faster in all catagories than my PS2, and all of my games can get patched in seconds, I can download new skins, maps, mods, with ease. Making those possible on consoles (basically X-box) is much more inefficient, because you have to make skins, levels, etc. on PC's and then translate them to X-box hardware. Where as opposed to a PC, you just put it on a steam client or what have you. The only efficiency consoles have is that they are user friendly, and even my PS2 has had more problems than my PC ever has...and I have MICROSOFT PRODUCTS dun dun DUNNnnnNN!!!

Oh, and FPS and RTS even through the lag, still have the most competitive international gaming community revolving around them, you know why? Not just because the games they use are top tier games, but because the online availability of those games opens up a whole new frontier of competition. Starcraft is Korea, most of you know its popularity, all started online. Same with CS in Europe and China. Maybe VF might have the same success in Europe, America, and CANADA
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afroconnexion said:
(sorry, gamespot sucks, but that's the first place I where I learned of this title from)

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Gamespot is one of the best Video Game sites around you dink. WTF? Tell me another place where I can download nearly all files about video games (legal ones) at multiple mbps? You might have a gripe with their reviews, but they provide incredibly fast servers for only the cost of a free registration. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Just let me say this...... even a USB cable that is too long can cause data loss or whatever problem. You can easily try this experiment... for those of you with a cable modem or dsl modem using usb connection. Buy a long (25ft or more) usb cable and use that for a while. Just see what happens. (Clue: your transfer rate will drop way below normal levels, and your computer might even think you lost your net connection.)

I know usb cable is not the same as cat 5 cable or fiber optic cables, but the idea is the same. The longer the connection is... the longer it takes for data to transfer. This is why most people who compete in fps or whatnot compete in a LAN environment whenever it's possible, to reduce the possibility of lag to as little as possible.

For those who argue that online fps works fine.... have you ever thought that you shot someone for sure, but it seemed like the shot didn't register? Honestly speaking, I am sure all of you who plays fps over the net almost always just overlook the glitch when it happens, or simply just believe you didn't actually hit them. Because people have simply grown to accept the fact that unless it's really apparently lag, there's no way to know if it's really lagging. (For example, 50-100ms)

No matter how much syncing or buffering you do, you can't eliminate the fact that it takes time for information to transfer over wires. Any physics course involving electricity will be able to tell you that. Some one mentioned the idea that cd players buffer input data. Well... the data on a cdrom is read only, they are all there and it's not dynamically generated. If you think about the inputs in a vf match as data on a cd, it simply doesn't make sense. When was the last time you "buffered" your input 10 seconds ahead before the match started?

Anyways, it all depends on how "acceptable" you think an online fighting game experience is... I mean, if you can accept a small degree of lag like a few frames and maybe some random misinterpreted input, then online VF is definitely possible. I do feel that most people would not want to go for that after playing VF, and being one of them, I agree that online VF is still as of yet impossible.

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

I agree with everything Srider just said.

Moreover, regardless if online play comes to VF5 or not, VF is simply a harder, less flashy game than DOA. The severe lack of flashing panties and the difficulty of the game will most likely keep the dumbasses away. More people aren't going to play it just because it's online. I understand that people need competition, but at what cost?

For example, I have a friend who is a hardcore, ranking tournament SF player. I asked him if he plays online Street Fighter Alpha or anything, and he said no, because the lag messes up his timing. People who play the game seriously should worry about lag, as you'll probably start buffering early to compensate, and then when we get to a flesh and blood tournament, you'll realize that all your inputs are half a second early ... wouldn't that be funny =)

So, until more advanced technology comes out, online VF would be a stupid move for Sega to make. Besides, the US VF market isn't exactly 'strong', why would they throw money away on servers that no one plays on?

 

Someone should tell the online community of fps's then, that's 100x bigger then VF's, that they're all morons cause they don't understand when they don't hit eachother... like really understand and should just put away AWP's and RG's etc who are instant hit weapons... and should just play lan all the time right? If you don't like to play a game online - don't play it online. There will still be local playing options (and face it, it is going online before anybody has 0 ping constantly). I do, however, know, that it will help a community grow (what would CS be without online play for example?) and I don't have any trouble with that happening (as there aren't exactly lines of players at the VF machine at the arcade) and I don't panic over it (as some here seem to have) being attempted either. I'm willing to bet that the dumb kid who plays alot online with his lag, against real people, learns more and has a more enjoyable experience then the kid who plays alone at home / abuse the comps AI when he's bored. Hell, he might not even throw away the game for being to hard to learn for starters.

I've heard it all before, from Doom2 who wouldn't be playable, to quake3 (does anybody know of commands like timenudge / server interpolation etc even?) who is even enjoyable on an adsl due to... that's right, online technique involved behind it which is built into the game (where does more things happen, in a 6on6 deathmatch or in a 1on1 fightinggame?). It's not as if the speed of transfer means everything (I lag on lan - unplayable I say - I only use spray and pray weapons cause of it and laugh at those who think they get headshots etc thru playing better!) and if Tecmo has found a solution / something good - I'll atleast wait for the results before critizing it as something that is just dumb of them to try (the problem with DOA hasn't been on the techniqual side ever but the gameplay side - the graphics are the best in any fightinggame for example). I won't go "well if it can be done for DOA that just proves how bad the game is / no reaction is needed" even either (does that make me nice?)

I think I should stop playing VF cause I have this problem you see.... I got a TC move against me and I blocked! I can't throw the guy doing it cause my brain doesn't react as fast as I want (I'm dumb)... and my thumb is fucking lag man (I can't even do Akiras + on a pad - I have to abuse the game by dashing first etc!!!). Then there's the fucking button... it takes time to press and realese ffs! It's not instant input so I can not have an enjoyable game - I have to abuse stuff!.... yes I'm that hardcore and elite... and I think the rest of you who go on playing are just dumb.

 

All this rubbish about Online 3d fighters is BS Vf2 pc is perfectly playable even when playing glc and godeater. Godeater is in canada and i'm in UK we expected to lag it didn't. I have repeated this time and time again yet no one can explain the vf2 engine.

 

KiwE, everybody's entitled to their own fucking opinion but don't fucking attack.

 

Wait a minute...you're complaining about online VF because there's gonna be lag?

What would you rather have: Offline VF, where you rarely have a human opponent or, if you're lucky, the same small group of human opponents, constantly, or Online VF, where even though it's not perfect, you have access to a much larger group of players and can therefore expand your playing skills even further.

Like someone pointed out with FPS games, there's lag that can sometimes interfere with your game. Well, guess what? You play online because there's not enough competition locally. I personally don't know a single FPS nut who prefers online to LAN, but every one of them I know would die if there was no more online play. Yes, it's not perfect, there's not 0 ping, but it's a helluva lot better to play a game with 40-100 ping then it is to not play the game at all.

 

Lol - KiWe's post. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I get the feeling that the naysayers on this thread haven't really been in the FPS and/or RTS scene. We all hate lag, and we play a lot better offline, but the online scene, despite all its flaws, is sure better than nothing, and the competition is immense. Another thing- the orgs like world cyber games will prob never seriously take VF seriously, until it develops a serious online scene- why, because the online scene generates competition, and not just any competition, but international competition.

About console/pc hw - yes internet connectivity is a contributor, but your local hw is definitely a big contributor, too. The game engine does most of the calculations locally, on your pc/hw, and sends over only the barebones traffic online. The local calculations take your local cpu's abilities.. and if your pc sucks, hell, you are going force your lame hourglass troubles to everybody else. And your pc may be better than an xbox/ps2, but it just isn't as efficient. Your pc is running all the windows garbage, a billion daemons, and dumbass friendly Clippits^TM and other bill gates shyte /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif Whereas a console is dedicated to one particular process, namely gameplay. Hell even xbox, which is essentially windows, still does not run a lot of the usual windows crap. And on top of it all, not everybody you meet online will have a good pc with a supa dupa video card and a gig of ram.

And I just can't stress the competition factor enough. Many of you guys just dream of playing Japan's best, but only a few of you guys actually get to. But hell, when I used to play AOK, even as a mediocre player, I still had regular opportunities to play the Chibita equivalents. And at any given time, I can logon and challenge some 20K players that were online. And whoknows how many more were offline at the time. And one more- if the online games do anything like the RTS games, they'll have Recordings. Meaning, they'll have features in the game that'll record the gameplay automatically. What does this mean- this means that there will be TONs and TONs of game videos generated. And you don't need to get all fancy with a capture card, anyone will be able to record, upload/download, and play game recordings. Part of the reason why the RTS community does so well is because of the recordings.

 

Thanks for sayin what I was meaning to say, but forgot to Agios. Yeah, we hate the lag in FPS games, but we'd much rather have laggy games with high-level competition than to have no games with high-level competition. That way we're more prepared for when we get the next chance to play these guys at a LAN setting, or face to face /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

You guys all seem to have high hopes...but you guys are missing the big picture as well.

First of all, online fighting games have already been tried. Capcom VS SNK on the X-Box, for one. As a dedicated console machine, there was still a crap load of lag which caused all high level players to shun it.

In an FPS, and especially a RTS, there's more planning and emphasis on slower strategy than in a fighting game, VF included. In VF, for sure you have a strategy, but you also have to constantly be aware of what the enemy is throwing at you and adjust accordingly. In an RTS, generally your build scheme and the efficiency of your economy determines the winner more than how well you use your soldiers. Formation of your soldiers is important too but lag doesn't really effect how your form your soldiers, or how you build your town.

FPS also involve a lot of things, such as knowledge of the map and weapon placement, and use of said weapons. FPS players will suffer exponentially because of lag; if you snipe someone and your shot is half a second late, you're screwed right? However, the best players can still have a competitive edge by working together in teams and/or knowing the map well.

In VF, or any fighting game, split second timing is VERY important. The arenas are all the same shape, there's no powerups, there's no building up, it's just you and them. If you block a crucial supercombo in CapSNK2, and your counter comes out 1-2 frames late, you're literally screwed. Sync problems, where your inputs are earlier than the actions on screen, cripple a game that is based on such strict timing.

Why do you think that online CapSNK2 is so unsuccessful? Every hardcore tournament player that I know that plays CapSNK2 (and I know a few that compete in EVO) has told me that lag makes that game crap. That game is also on the X-box, and since it's 2D, it might technically have fewer variables than a 3D game, but I don't know for sure.

Here's what I think will happen to DOA online. The 'hardcore tournament players' that don't exist will get killed by scrubs because of lag over a few frames. They will return the game and go back to their circle. Then, all the kids that love staring at boobs will play the game online and laugh at their laggy opponents. Strategies will be based on network connection speeds instead of game tactics.

That's ok for DOA because there are no tournaments and that's what was intended, an easy, fun fighting game. However, look at VF. If we apply the same model, all the really good people will leave because lag will screw up their game. Then, all the new players will battle it out online because they think it's the same game. No one will know if they won based on a good strategy or because of lag, because it's probably impossible to tell if there are 2 or 3 frames of lag if you're new at the game. Strats based on network connections will formulate. It'll be stupid, and a waste of money.

Therefore, until they can eliminate all lag from online play, they should NEVER put up online servers for VF. I don't care if it gives people more competition. The competition they will recieve will actually make them WORSE at the game, and when they play in real life, they'll be even MORE frustrated and probably quit.

Oh and about recordings... sure, they are valuable to see build order in RTS and formation and whatnot. But the internet does NOT need a bunch of videos of scrubs hitting PPPK all day long. If you need strategies, then check out the media thread.

 

I agree that the technology for decent online play isn't here yet, but I'd like to see some sort of online feature in VF5 that allows file-sharing. Maybe even the ability to view other matches in progress (like in Tony Hawk Pro skater). I wouldn't mind if they at least attempted online play though.

 

I'm just worried that it'll cost more money than Sega can afford... and I really feel like it's a lost cause ...

Maybe in the future...but we can only dream at this point.

 

CVS2EO on xbox - well, that thing is basically CVS2 with some networking code slapped on. CVS2 was never meant as an online game- it's like rigging a Honda Civic to be an off roader. Now a Civic is a damn good car in its own right, and one of the most easily tuned cars around, and you might get by with replacing the springs, tires, etc, but the fact of the matter is, it'll never perform off road like a Jeep Wrangler, which was designed with off road usage in mind. They basically need to write a fighting engine from scratch with an online emphasis. Many FPS and RTS games are written specifically for online use. I remember playing Warlords II online way back then. It was sort of like a 1st gen RTS (well half turn based, but had some RTS elements). It basically sucked. And yeah, it had strategies specifically based on lag. And then I remember playing Rise of Rome, an early RTS, which although designed with online play emphasis, still had some serious lag issues, and even bugs that were exploited using lag. ROR was a lot of fun, though. Then came AOK, which was a lot more lag tolerant. etc. etc., the point is, there is progress.

But it's true enough that fighters are more sensitive to lags than FPS and RTS games. Can't argue much there.

About recordings- the world sure didn't need a billion recordings of people playing simcity either, but due to quantity alone, a lot of pretty good recordings get generated. The recorded feature is already there in VF4E, like DRE said, it just needs to be more accessible online. And the ability to view other gameplays- yeah, that's a common RTS feature as well, and it is a lot of fun..


Or, I guess I could be just dreaming too... /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif *sniff*

 

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agios_katastrof said:

CVS2EO on xbox - well, that thing is basically CVS2 with some networking code slapped on. CVS2 was never meant as an online game- it's like rigging a Honda Civic to be an off roader....

They basically need to write a fighting engine from scratch with an online emphasis.

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That fighting engine would have to be nothing like current 3D fighters. Lag is lag. Lag will exist until information can be sent faster than the speed of light. I don't think CVS2 re-written from the ground up with networking code present from the beginning would come out any different than what you have now.

FPS are designed with lag in mind. The in-game elements make for a fun experience as long as you can live with your ping. Still, someone with 70 ping may still bitch about a 30 ping player and call them an LPB.

I've played a little Jedi Academy, which seems an FPS with sabres instead of guns. The fighting premise seems wierd... for instance, strong attacks are slow - so you start one away from your opponent and then try to time it just right and complete the attack right on top of your opponent. You block by just standing still. If someone tries a low swipe to beat your block, it's slow enough that you can jump or evade because you see it coming. Nothing requires split second timing. Low ping still gives advantage. Melee mods allow for punching and kicking along with use of sabres. Hit detection is probably generous. Fighting? Yes. VF style fighting? No.

Lag is the rule in FPS online. Sure everyone prefers LAN play - but that's the exception. People understand this. No lag is the rule of console fighters. I can't see people seriously wanting to move backwards and introduce lag to their gameplay.

Sure, VF online could just be fun because "look at this shit, VF online! OMFG! So cool!" But it's kind of like the special modes in EVO quest - fun for a while but not taken seriously.

 

i'd push for some development on online VF. they're eventually going do it. i think it would be a good way to strengthen and broaden the VF community, but it will only give a bad reputation if it isn't done "right". so i say, let them do it when they feel "comfortable" doing it. i'll wait two instalments if i have to (unless VF gets too far behind...), but it has to be done right. i'd hate to see an online VF game that was hastily developed for the sake of having an online VF game.

i also agree with DRE. an online feature would be nice for the next VF. watching others play live is the next best thing to actually playing them lol.

 

ANd of course, all the naysayers here are completely missing the point of online play. It's not meant to replace offline play, not by a long shot. The best gaming experience is still when you're sittin down right with your opponent, right next to them. BUT, and I mean BUT, you can't always find an opponent when you want one, so you'll settle for an online game where true, there is lag and it can sometimes interfere with the game, but it's still better than nothing.

You'll never meet an FPS/RTS fan who would rather play internet games over LAN games, and I'm sure the same would hold true for fighters. These same players, however, would probably start crying the moment they heard that internet play was no longer available. Yeah, sure, lag sucks, and it can ruin some otherwise good games. But it's sure as hell better to have a somewhat laggy game (I'm talkin the 50-250 mS pingtimes, not huge lag) than it is to have nothing at all.

And like the poster pointed out about online RTS games: It's been getting better, each new generation of games is more lag-tolerant than before. We just need the ball to start rolling with the fighting games; I'm sure the first couple games are gonna be rocky, but with time it'll get more refined and eventually we'll all have a good stable place to find a game when we just can't dig up the opponents where we live.

It would be REALLY nice to have something like a replay repository too, where we can view/swap videos and chat. It'd be a step up too /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

You'd be surprised what can be achieved when a bunch of reasonably intelligent people get together. No point judging DOA Online before you play it. On a good peer-peer connection lag can be minimal over broadband connections.

Flawed or not, online VF would be a fantastic extra to have on any home console release.

 

Just building on some previous posts.

Yeah, even a game written grass roots with online emphasis will not match a offline game in play. The Jeep Wrangler does not perform off road, as well as a Civic does on pavement. Even 2D games will not be the same. GGXX False Romans Cancels? Yeah, right. So big tournaments like the WCGs, are always held offline. It's a hell lot more exciting that way, too.

It's also the reason why Korea also has the most prolific PC-Bang scene in the world. Korea has the highest broadband concentration in the world, something like an insane 75% (compare that to the US, where somebody is considered internet savvy, if they know what AOHell is). But despite all that broadband coverage, people come to these PC-Bangs (essentially PC/console based arcades), for the highest level of competions without the lag, and of course also for the LAN party social aspects. There is a reason why Korea is the dominant international king of RTS. Anyway, the point here is, that offline play will still remain.

 

After reading all this and thinking - I'll change my stance somewhat.

Online VF won't be perfect, but its existence won't ruin the game for offline people. As long as nobody goes bankrupt, I don't think it will hurt to have VF online. If it does go online, I hope it's a success.

 

Agreed..some competition, even if laggy, is better than nothing at all. THere is no excuse for not having on line play. VF2 works fine.