Online 3D Fighter

Umm..speed of light is faster than electricity. Electricity is just charged protons being propelled.

 

You also can't assume wires used everywhere is made of the best conductor and free from electrical and magnetic interferences.

 

Srider, you'd need a server to determine which player actually pulls off the move, in your TFT example.

Yeah, it's not a perfect system, but it can be done and at an acceptable loss.

ALSO, to the best of my knowledge, electricity doesn't really change speeds in anything. The speed of electricity is pretty much a constant, whether it's travelling through wood, copper, water, or atmospheric air. The variable that really changes with the material electricity travels through, is how much energy remains at the end. With wood, if you can manage to push enough voltage through that it actually flows through the wood (and you're lucky enough to keep it from igniting), you'll wind up with a whole lot less energy on the other side.

Correction, you'll actually wind up with very little energy on BOTH sides, but that's just a technicality. Electricity does some strange things.

BTW, feel free to point me to an article or snippet or something (please no quotes) where I'm wrong. If I am, I'd like to know about it, coz it seems like an awefully big assumption that electricity has a constant speed through all materials.

ALSO, (I know, I'm rambling on here) the difference between 'cheap' wire and, let's say pure copper wire, is resistance, which is energy lost. The more conductive, the less energy from your electricity will be given off as heat, because that's what pure resistance does. It converts electric energy to thermal energy /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Okay, I'm done rambling. And please dont take my comments the wrong way; I'm actually enjoying our discussion (I'm not enjoying the flaming between other people besides myself, however. But I am getting sidetracked) and I hope it doesn't devolve into said flame-war.

 

I'll try to stop being a jerk and explaining things more pedagoical instead of using things like "lol" / "bullshit" etc this time and see how the fuck it goes. Oops.

First of; Srider - you do know that when you do that ping in your command promt that it's a measuring tool for latency right? Ping is the best tool (atleast in accordence to speed, but you can adjust parameters as how many sends etc, packetsize and so on you want to try) there is nowadays and that's why it's used. It's no accident honestly.

I think I've been acting kinda mean here yeah - but I got extremly annoyed over the fact that someone said he was happy etc over fightinggames going online and immidieatly alot of people came to piss on the parade (so to speak) saying things like it wasn't plausible cause of VF's nature (Hey, tekken has just frame moves aswell etc) - largely due to I felt it was uneccesary and that there might be other motives behind it.
That is, defending some sort of messed up honor from a previous thread where the debate was wether or not it was possible. That and the fact that I saw somethings that I just felt was plain wrong made me start to post cause I feel I have some things to contribute / abit of knowledge in computers - not that I consider my knowledge to be something extraordinary (I probably know most within audio actually). Then you started, after my picture telling me how I didn't know about how fps compensated for lag (?) and started making really weird statements after that while, according to me, saying really really messed up things which seemed to show me that your knowledge within fps's / network traffic was very limited at most.

I don't understand how you can say that I won't let up on my argument? I think we both, basicly, feel we're right and that no one of us wants to give in is that not so? But Srider, I have corrected you (in my opinion) time and time again in this thread, do you honestly think I haven't?

In my pov, I think that you won't give it up cause of the way I have acted superior / been mocking and that's my biggest misstake in this thread (I've been abit uptight these last days aswell as alot of things has been going on in my life).

Let's say I have personal issues against DirectX for starters; I'll go so far as to I'll see it as a threath. That of course makes me biased alot against the system - that goes without saying. All of my statements about it still stand though.

It is, for example, slow Srider. An example would be Direct Sounds latency (since you mentioned Direct X and sound) as compared to ASIO on a good soundcard (that I have). DX started out as an API to hide hardware variations from the programmer (actually) and to make windows compatibility with games (I remember when it was launched). Not everything was perfect at the launch - a big backfire was when John Carmack said that direct X is slow etc (it has come a long way since then) and programmed the magificient Quake1 in dos and OpenGL.

Graphic cards started coming and all had different functions / focus. If a game came that didn't support your graphics card - you were fucked. As with all new technology it became a war about what would be considered standard to the masses (it would be a catastrophy if say, quake 2 wouldn't support your card for the manufacturer) - it's amazing how 3dfx could mess up their position on the market. Microsoft started including 3d in their API - it was always behind 'till recently cause it only had the basic functions (and lesser image quality).

Nowadays - using functions outside of directX for a game (for example special graphic options) demands special porting of it to any graphic card you want it compatible with. So, in a sense, Microsoft has gotten a key. Doom3 will, however, do just that - special portings for different graphic cards in order to use all functions. This is what I ment bye Direct X being a shortcut, but it is slower. The problem is, Microsoft doesn't adjust to the graphic card market anymore with Direct X (from version 8 and up) - it tries to lead it and decide which functions go and which stays. And that is something I see very dangerous and inhibating. Microsoft always act on what's best for their company (and do it extremly well) and not what's best for the community (look at their withdrawal from the W3C standardisation panel for example).

All our Direct X talk is of topic and should really be dropped.


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Fundamentally, it is a software layer that provides high level code to directly interface with the hardware.

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I don't see that as equal with:

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directx provides a direct interface between high level code and low level hardware. Even if you think I meant it's high leveled, it is pretty high leveled compared to assembly. Even you had said before that directx is just "multimedia libraries", which would be high level code, nice of you to now agree with me that it's code to provide low level api.

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Sometimes I really just don't understand what you're saying and this is one of those times. For example, what is "low level hardware"? You say that "Even if you think I meant it's high leveled" which points me to think that you think it's lowleveled and then you say "it is pretty high leveled compared to assembly" which leaves me at a point of not knowing what to think and a lack of understanding of your point.
"multimedia libraries" equels highlevel programming/complex code by just existing as multimedia library functions? It just feels like a mishmash of words to me Srider honestly.

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About the same ping, but one with more data??? This 5bytes of difference is enough to be a huge difference when the traffic increases.

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Yeah, 1kb = 1024 bytes but sure, your 5bytes(!) is the mother of all network loads - specially when sending just 4 times without midstations /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

You said that package size didn't matter and it does, there's no other way around it - ignore the previous example I wrote (I didn't check it myself and realised how small it was afterwards - Naruto double ep came out while talking) and I don't want to go into packetloss / fragmenting data etc on this point but keep it simple.

Easiest example would be for you to take your IP and in your command prompt go:

ping ip <---- (where IP is of course the adress etc)

Now, ping that ip again with a bigger package:

ping -l 1472 ip

This should be enough for you to see the noticable difference you didn't see in the previous example (I hope - kinda depends on what you're sending the echo towards). Package size should matter more the more routers you pass on your way to deliver the data as a router can have problem with different package sizes (to small,to big, incorrectly configured etc).

True, small variations in the number (I believe default is around 55 or so) is no problem and there most likely will be abit of tresholds of values. The reaon i reacted so strongly to you saying that package sizes doesn't matter when it comes to ping (and it does) is however another thing; they're very common in attacks. For example; someone might Remember (if you use shady wares and you're a bad man) the D.o.S (Denial of Service) attacks that the site Suprnova.org was under. One frequent way / classic way of attacking a server is thru heavily bombing it with big packages. An example would be the ICMP attack of SSPING/JOLT which explained is that you send the OS a oversized fraggmented ping packet/packets, and when the OS tries to assemble theese it locks. Another one would be the now classic ICMP attack that was nicknamed 'The Ping Of Death' in which you could crash WinNT machines and MacOS's by sending the absolute max size package thru something as simpel as "ping -l 65510 adress" at one point in time. Of cource, the more computers the better (worse).

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Oh well. How about this, give us some technical details on why you think online VF would work? You've been claiming how my arguments are nonsense, so why not give us/me some insight into how it would work then?

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If you haven't seen argumentation to why it would work you haven't been reading or listening to what has been said. And it's not up even up to me to explain how it would work (as I said in my previous post) as I'm not a network technichan - but you clearly have taken on the task of telling the world that it's undoable based on your knowledge, in a thread about the fact that Tecmo is doing DOA:Online.

"Like, if one guy does TFT, and the other guy jabs. The first guys's machine says TFT happened since the jab input was a little lagged. The other guy's machine says his jab landed before the TFT happened since the TFT input was a little lagged, so which machine is right and how should it be decided what actually happened?"

An example / try of an explanation:

1) Server has stored move prior to the throw attempt, if the situation is TC and p1 tries a throw, nothing p2 does (punch here) will matter exept his throwescapes during the animation time of the throw rendered locally on his screen.
2) Server recognizes that it's not a TC situation.

3) Player one starts his throw, player 2 his punch, 1 or 2 frames will decide what wins. Assume there is noticable lag in the situation and compensations techniques doesn't matter / work well.

Player 1's punch should win in his situation on his screen, player 2's throw should win in the situation on his screen but note, both players worlds are drawn locally and they will both be in the same exakt time in the round etc - what will be updated is what the other person is doing atm .

How would the server decide who's right? I don't know, here are some suggestions though:

1) Logical deduction algorithms. Why was the player doing multiple throw directions there and what does that mean when he's doing them while being thrown? Did he react to a specific situation (server checks and sees that the player had a garanteed punch situation and the player did perform a punch just as soon as his blockstun animation locally had ended and grants him the win / priority for doing a correct choice).

2) Server sees, Aha(!), both moves were made out of the blue (as it has no prior data on itself), server requests local time.
Server gets both players time events and compares times. Server sees and states blankly; p1's move would win over player 2's move if the times sent are correct. Server says p1 wins, p2's hit on his screen immideatly gets cancelled (so fast he doesn't even notice it) and the actions of p1 are now upon him.

Now I'm of to sleep. Peace Out.

 

All a server needs is one lag spike to ruin an entire game.

Listen, I don't want to prolong the argument, as no one seems to be changing their minds. However, 'acceptable' VF is quite relative to one's own outlook on the game. I think acceptable online VF is a long ways off, and I firmly believe that unless DoA online is completely lag free, or unless they fundamentally change the fighting engine to compensate for lag(and gameplay along with it), then it won't work at an acceptable level(of course I'm sure all those hardcore DoA players are really sweating this one).

I understand if you're having a bad week KiwE and I never tried to flame anyone. Just stuff that you said to Srider and I are kind of enflaming and show a lot of pomp. I'm not an expert at computers, but I understand the basic concepts of lag. If a lag free game had been possible, then it would have already been done. I would love to play Battlefield 1942 without any lag. And although I enjoy 30-40 ping once and a while, I still think that server spikes and remittant lag would ruin VF gameplay to the point of unplayability.

Now as far as everyone assuming that I have this great arcade scene to call upon, I don't. When I started getting into VF, I posted on the forums that I wanted to play, and then I met someone from the forums irl to play. It's not like I can just hop to arcades and play, I play the computer 95% of the time.

The yearn for competition is great indeed, but competition sucks if you're just playing a half assed, laggy VF. KiwE, most of your situations, from my perspective, seem to completely ignore the possibility of lag spikes. The server can make plenty of calculations but it might choose the wrong answer. High level VF is based on very tense situations with plenty of close calls. A few frames can make all the difference.

And I don't really understand why you're citing Tekken for their just frames, as Tekken is not in any sort of online environment. Sure, there might be other games with moves requiring similar split second timing, but I can't think of one that is online.

 

I think some folk are being overly negative towards the idea of online VF, not based on sound technical knowledge but out of some desire to distance VF from other "lesser" fighting games. The fact that DOA will be online soon has just stoked the fires up.

I think it's best just to wait and see how DOA online comes out, as it'll be a good benchmark for a possible online mode in VF. I'm quietly confident it'll be really playable so long as the connection is decent (I believe Temco have restricted cross territory matches to lessen the impact of lag).

Allot of the negative arguments seem to be based on assumed network latency. Fact is allot of broadband sessions can be completely lag free.

 

Well the reason that lagspikes, or packetloss, has been 'ignored' (and really it hasn't - packetloss has been discussed has it not?) is cause it's widely ignored online. If you're experiencing frequent packetloss (to the point of it being spikes in your gameplay) the problem is probably at your internet service provider or you connecting to a server that is to far locally from where you reside. Simple as that.

I can't remember the last time I got a connection interupted etc when playing quake3 and if you were to ping out in an rts you would get just that reply; "Tough luck - your isp sucks" so that's kinda the answer you get here aswell. There are other ways of handling if someone spikes then just letting the game go on as in fps's (out of logical reason as it wouldn't be fun if 11players waited for one) as in freezing both clients until the player with the spike gives a respond (so you wouldn't loose a whole match over it) or dropping him if he gets spikes repeadetly (normal timeout drop with countdown) etc. Maybe the results wouldn't even show on your stats if you experienced jumpy performance. Hell - many times lagspikes is even due to badly configured routers or even hardware problems at your computer - not internet speed as the key factor. You seem to believe that in 3-4 years you will still be sitting on your adsl modem aswell instead of a multiple times faster broadband connection but hey - that's just the way it is (I know I won't be accepting myself on an adsl at that point in time atleast). /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yeah, it all comes down to what you find acceptable performance (and that's the only thing anyone can agree on). Even if I had great packetloss problems and 'spiked out' every 7th hour (both other then that fine gameplay) or so I'd find that acceptable; but then again - I'd find it acceptable if someone came and hit me square on in the face with a herring every 7th hour or so aswell if I just could get VF:Online (but maybe that's just me being insane again). Why? Cause I wouldn't be playing it for tourneys / prize money online but for fun (that magic word) and I would be enjoying it infinite amounts more then playing the comps A.I locally. However, where do you think your gameplay would improve the most? I firmly believe online.

I cited Tekken cause I felt the general feel of the nay sayers where that evo was something greatly special, "I wouldn't be able to do a knee online!" or when saying that VF2 works online with garanteed throw situations just alike the responses were like "uhm yeah but it does have hitthrows / minami stepping!". Yeah though, it was greatly of non relevance so ignore that. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cya Online - KiwE (Enjoys a good flaming and even a good spanking if you're a girl and it's on an even share basis - yeah, bring a friend).

 

That results in loss of electricity, not change in speed. Its the difference between a partial and super conductor. A super conductor has no loss (theoretically) of power.

 

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Umm..speed of light is faster than electricity. Electricity is just charged protons being propelled.

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Uhm... Protons?

Anyways; here's an intresting text to read on the subject on the subject that I happened to find cause it was interesting.

 

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I think some folk are being overly negative towards the idea of online VF, not based on sound technical knowledge but out of some desire to distance VF from other "lesser" fighting games. The fact that DOA will be online soon has just stoked the fires up.


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I never even considered DOA online to be playable in the first place. My opinion about online fighting game not being possible applies to all fighting games. Why is it that just because DOA is going to have a online capability that it's going to be lag free and arcade perfect?


To KiWe:
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Sometimes I really just don't understand what you're saying and this is one of those times.

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This is probably the key here, maybe I'm just not very good at wording things explicitly. Since I'd have to write a book to explain all the details. For example, from the beginning I have been saying lowest ping != optimal tcp/ip performance. Because what matters is the packet size. Yet you said
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You said that package size didn't matter and it does

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Even when I said
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You'll find out that even if you send different sized packets, the ping won't change. So to optimize TCP/IP performance, you need to figure out the maximum trasmit unit possible within the ping time.

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So maybe it's just a case of you not reading what I've said carefully. Maybe I have done the same at times.
Regardless, I am confident in my little bit of knowledge about directx game development and I still do believe many conceptions you have about it is incorrect. I just get irritated when people say it's wrong when those things I've said can probably be found verbatim in different technical references. I do confess, as I have done before, that I'm not aware of new/exclusive techniques in code to deal with lag. As I'm sure these are mostly well kept secrets in each company.

All things aside, the thing I have said are based on current technology that I'm aware of. I personally think it's useless to imagine what's possible in the future, as it's common sense that things will progress given time. Maybe someone will invent teleporters that can beam people to other places so no one would ever need to play online. That is why I think it's pointless to use the future as the context. Given the current state of online gaming, it should be a given to see that so far no one has been able to achieve a perfect online experience whether it's consoles or games. For example, look at what happened at CGX. They had to cancel the CS tournament because Steam was unable to handle the amount of bandwidth present, even in a LAN environment. (From what i've heard/read) It just seems to me that people think broadband is the cure to the bandwidth problem... which it's not. That's why most broadband users/subscribers are capped, and there's a obvious reason for that. It's just not something that has been/can be overcomed right now, imo.

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

So, to summarize what KiWe linked to:

1. It's a giant flamewar /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Dont waste your time reading it.
2. Electrons, the particles that make up 'electricity', actually move VERY slow, like 2 cm/s
3. The effects of that movement are felt almost instantaneously though, no actual word on speed was given as to the effects.

 

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Srider said:
I never even considered DOA online to be playable in the first place. My opinion about online fighting game not being possible applies to all fighting games. Why is it that just because DOA is going to have a online capability that it's going to be lag free and arcade perfect?

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Well, nobody is arguing that a fighting game online will be arcade perfect. At least, not that I've seen. We're just arguing that an online fighting game can be done with minimal harmful effects from lag and the ways it can be done.

As has been stated: It would be folly to expect an arcade performance online, just as it's folly to expect LAN performance online with FPS and RTS games. But we'd sure as hell like it anyways, because while it's not arcade perfect, it's still alot more human comp than we would normally have access to.

Besides, if you dont want to play the online, you wouldn't have to. But the option would be there for the rest of us that do, and we'd very much like that, lag and all. It's better than nothing.

 

Hey Srider:

Wait, let me get this straight; you're telling me that you haven't said package size couldn't effect ping and that I must have missunderstood you cause you've said "from the beginning" that it did Srider?

If you answer yes I have utterly lost all respect for you as a person and you'Il make me mad / dissapointed in you for a prolonged period of time.

/KiwE (About who reads posts the better etc - I'm still amazed you're still, after this time, spelling my nick KiWe).

 

Re: Hey Srider:

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I cited Tekken cause I felt the general feel of the nay sayers where that evo was something greatly special...

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I'm not sure if you meant VF is something special in terms of if it would work online or not, or the gameplay itself, but a lot of people think that VF is 'special' compared to other fighting games, so much so that a little lag would ruin their game. I'm sure I'm not the only person who wouldn't just 'shrug off' lag as an 'oh well' in a heated match. Also, I don't think it's a stretch to say that VF is technically the most popular fighting game in the world(although that popularity is primarily in Asia).

Following that, do you think that people in Japan will want to play ANY competitive fighting game online if latency becomes a factor(however small)? In the case of VF, SEGA AM2's main market is Japan and they aren't going to create an online network for the small patches of VF players that exist in the US. Therefore it's pretty useless to discuss the possibility of such a thing happening in the near future, unless AM2 makes all the female characters have huge breasts and includes panty shots and flashier moves.

I don't want to make a broad, sweeping generalization, but I think that most US gamers are attracted to flash, which is why DOA online is coming and VF online isn't. However I recently read something that's pretty interesting:

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"We feel that Dead or Alive Online has evolved into something bigger than what it started out as and with these additions and advancements came a need for us to change the name to represent this progression. Dead or Alive Online only signifies a portion of this game while the new name, Dead or Alive Ultimate, describes more accurately what fans will experience when they buy this game," (Tony Tarpey, Tecmo's Marketing Manager, quoted from IGN)

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I might be wrong or pessimistic, but when I read that, here's what I hear:

"The online componant isn't that great, so we're changing the name to de-emphasize the online componant and focus more on the various rehash of our old games which have been prettied up with better graphics".

Honestly, talking about this is a waste of time. I think that the smartest thing for everyone to do is wait for DOA online/ultimate, and see how it works. Depending on how well the online part works, we'll see whether it's really worth it for VF to have any kind of online game. The idea of having a perfect game with someone on the east coast, or even someone in Asia, is VERY exciting, but for that game to have any kind of fulfillment, there would have to be no lag at all.

 

People are People.

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Following that, do you think that people in Japan will want to play ANY competitive fighting game online if latency becomes a factor(however small)?

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Yes.

Btw, DOA2 > DOA3 imo and many others. And if you think that changing the name from DOA:Online to DOA: Ultimate sounds like a downgrade in the comfort they have of the game - I feel exactly the opposite. Btw, I liked how you took the portion of the IGN article you liked and left out what is said directly after that. Shall we have a look shall we?

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"The Saturn version of Dead or Alive was sold only in Japan so this will be the first time it will be released in North America while DOA2 has been completely rebuilt using the latest graphics engine from Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball, ultimately making DOA2 better than our own DOA3. With the new costumes and the expansion of fighting arenas, it's reborn as a brand new game." (Tony Tarpey, Tecmo's Marketing Manager, quoted from IGN)

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The complete article is here..

Peace Out /KiwE (Likes Checking Sources).

 

Re: People are People.

Wow... I love it how better graphics = better game. Look at what you quoted.

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DOA2 has been completely rebuilt using the latest graphics engine from Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball, ultimately making DOA2 better than our own DOA3. With the new costumes and the expansion of fighting arenas, it's reborn as a brand new game

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Wow... ok ... wait ONE second... so more costumes and expanded arenas = a better game? Wow, I'm sure they are really sweating the whole 'improve the gameplay bit'. Which is why this game is rehash.

I'm not particularly qualified to say this as I am not a complete expert on DOA, but I'm willing to guess that the enhancement between DOA2 and 3 wasn't really a big step in evolutionary gameplay, as it was a step in boobie bounce physics and the quality of the glass that is broken as you fall out a window.

Good 'remakes' actually change the game fundamentally. Look at MGS: Twin Snakes? They could have released that last year but they spent a LONG time refining the gameplay to match and even improve upon MGS2, included tons of easter eggs, and re-did all the cutscenes, voice acting, etc. I call that a worthwhile remake.

 

Hey:

You really seem to have an extreme hate / predjudices against DOA for someone who hasn't played it really - maybe that's why you're so inclined to say that DOA's online function will suck? Just food for thought.

Over and Out, Kiwe.

 

Re: Hey:

KiwE, Do you think you'll be testing out DOAU to see how
funtional the online play will be? If DOAU is a success
(meaning its very much playable online), I believe Vf can
follow suit. The game engines between both fighter are basically
the same but with different emphasis on certain gameplay
aspects.

 

Re: Hey:

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the game engines between the games are basicly the same (, evades etc etc) but sure, I'd like to try it online (who wouldn't)?

To whine on it not being a decent remake when it's really early and there's, like, only 4 screenshots of it this point of time is just weird imo.

 

Even though it might not work overall, the cool thing to me about DOA Online is how they're trying to recreate the old arcade feel of the early '90s with Mortal Kombat, Samurai Showdown, and Street Fighter with the way you get a match: you have to watch other people fight until it's your turn, and then if you win you get the next in line. That seems to be a lot more fun and have a lot more potential then what they could've done such as having random match-ups or only have you able to invite people to fight.