Online 3D Fighter

I totally agree with you. I love being able to view matches
and learn from my peers. The set-up Team Ninja is making is
a psuedo Arcade scene. I guess like real life, players will
most likely congregate in their state/province/town/city
and have local comp(becuase the restriction lag may cause)
If online play is smooth, the result can be a larger competitive
scene for Doa, which will bring forth higher skilled players
And better understanding of the game. Enough with my rambling about doa,
Vf in places other than Japan and Korea need an online Virtua
Fighter. Many will disagree and that happens when there
are significant changes are made. Its not about whats best for
these individuals, but whats best for the community. Vf online
wont be perfect in its first installment, with time Am2 will
be able to master the online coding.

 

^ You're probably right.

Also, I don't think lag would be as big of a problem as it seems.

If they restricted it to DSL, Cable, and T1-3 connections, that would take care of a lot of it, plus since it's not like PC games where a slow computer could create lag, all PS2s are the same and all PS2s are verfied to run well on it. But yeah, even a few frames is brutal in a fighting game.

 

Re: Hey:

I've already outlined why I think DOA online will suck in my previous posts.... I try to form my opinions based on logic, not predjudice.

As for the actual gameplay, I had experience with DOA2 and 3. It's just ... after you play VF, playing DOA again feels like a step backwards. Maybe I'm just bitter because I feel like VF is a better game, and I don't like how it's not popular. It makes me feel like the gaming population is stupid and can't think, so they play a game that's easy to play.

Then again, DOA isn't necessarily a bad game for people who just want to have fun, but I cringe when people claim to play DOA competitively. I hope that they do some balancing when they put it online, or we'll have tiers establish themselves quickly. It'll be like Tekken 4 all over again.

 

Re: Hey:

KTallGuy: Food for thought.

Alot of people dont have the time to spend learning VF, because it's a rather hard game to learn and takes quite a bit of time, just to get the basics down.

Either they dont have the time, or they have other things they deem more valuable to do.

 

Re: Hey:

That's possibly the case, however I disagree a little. There are lots of people that devote their adolecent(and possibly adult) lives to Tekken or Soul Calibur, much more than in Japan or Korea... (with the possible exception of TTT).

Basics of VF aren't too bad. The buttons are easy. Most characters don't have many extremely complicated combos, and there are good rewards for difficult-to-pull-off combos. Dodge is simple. The difficult inputs only rear their head when you start ETEG and if you play Akira.

I think that VF just doesn't have enough flash to attract most American gamers. I agree that the general majority of people out there in the US have little time to play videogames seriously. But out of those serious gamers, the amount of VF players is slim.

You know that there's plenty of people out there playing in fighting game tournaments. When I went to EVO 2003 I met so many great people, but I also realized that our fighting game is kind of outcasted. It's possibly because people picked it up and thought it was too easy, or too slow, or something. Most Tekken and SC players seem to have this attitude about it... like they're saying "I'm not playing that game." (Then again, after I played VF I started having that attitude about playing other fighters competitively) From what I've seen, in an overall sense, VF doesn't have too much respect in the US from hardcore fighting gamers, regardless of critical acclaim.

It's also a matter of personal taste. That's why even though I feel like other fighting games are inferior, I know that it's my own opinion and if people enjoy Tekken and not VF, that's fine! Sometimes I use the theory that people just want something easy to get into and dominate, and something with flashy graphics. I think this theory is mostly correct, IMO.

 

Re: Hey:

Well, yeah. Some people dont have the extra time to devote to VF, because they're already playing other games. I'm a good nuff example of that, but recently I've been makin time for VF anyways. I used to practice UT2k3 to be able to play it competitively, but after a while it got boring because i couldn't find good human competition often enough (most people would give up after a few rounds). So I started makin more time for VF, but originally that wasn't the case.

Some people just have their tastes, and yeah, you're right about the graphics glitz that VF lacks. The characters are more detailed and etc, but just not as 'bling-bling' as Jin Kazama or Nightmare and Cervantes.

And don't downplay the difficulty of VF too much. I've let 3 friends borrow my copy of VF4, along with a few pointers of how to get started. NONE of them played it more than once, because they found it too hard to be rewarding at first.. Hell, the guy I got the game from absolutely hated it because it was too hard.

I think if we can knock that down a bit, things would be alright.

(Note: It also helps when there's more of a wide range of players; alot of VF newbies just quit when they get their asses handed to them by the more experienced players.)

 

Re: Hey:

Imo the 'vf is to hard to learn to play' is a fucking myth that people use as an excuse out of lazyness (or something that's thrown as a reserve to why they can like another fightinggame that's apparently inferior without having the balls to say they like it more based on other facts). What can you do in for example SC2 before you learn all characters strings etc and where the attack is etc (as it's not obvious) - not bloody much. Before that point in time it's just a spamfest. You can play your entire life in another fightinggame then vf and think your hot shit and then go to a tourney and get ripped open a new one simply cause there isn't a trainingmode worthy of it's name to tell you that you suck.

Protip: Don't carry on the myth that vf is hard to learn without backing it up with some sort of argument.

 

Re: Hey:

KiwE: You mean to tell me that all players, before they reach pro status, are just spamming buttons?

Well shit then. I guess that means I'm just spamming buttons then, because I haven't even been able to pull ETEG successfully one time in a match.

Granted, I'm not as serious a SC2 player as I am in VF, but I've played against some serious players and had much more success than against the serious VF crew that lives here. I still lost almost every game,b ut they were alot closer, and I didn't have to resort to cheese tactics. Right there should be some indication of the learning curve.

 

Re: Hey:

[ QUOTE ]
Pntsnfng_Joe said:
Granted, I'm not as serious a SC2 player as I am in VF, but I've played against some serious players and had much more success than against the serious VF crew that lives here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there aren't any serious SC2 players here except for Halister and Moses. So unless you were playing either of them, I wouldn't take any matches you've played in SC2 here as representatives of good play IMO.

 

Re: Hey:

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:

Protip: Don't carry on the myth that vf is hard to learn without backing it up with some sort of argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

VF is hard to learn because of its incredible depth. It takes long enough time to just understand the system of it and how it works, and it will take even longer to learn each&every situation, not to mention frames. Once you get a grip on how the system works, you will be able to see how mind games and mix up games in VF happening in real matches. It becomes extremely fun and addictive from that point on.(I agree that it can be very frustrating as well.)

 

Re: Hey:

Yeah Maddy, I kinda agree with you when you say it like that and I could take your pow but I believe that most people (and this is what annoys me) who say that it's hard say it cause (it's trendy! ;-) they don't get the instant gratification in gameplay that they're after due to
1) VF punishing misstakes much harder when playing against someone who knows what he's doing (TC and hard to break throws, moves are balanced etc).
2) You can't spam moves in vf (you just feel choppy) and it's not easy to do something like + on random etc.

But is it really hard to learn if you want to from within the game or do people just not learn it from the get go cause of their intrest is just to start of a fight asap (and later whine) without even going thru basic training? I define, rather simplisticly, your chance of being good in a game as:
1) Metaknowledge (know what you are bad at and how to improve it)
2) Motivation in the game (how much you want to play the game).

Due to other games lacking much against VF in 1) I can take the pow of believing a game that's "simpler" than VF without the functions that the trainingmode in VF offers and the much worse AI (that lets ju get away with murder) is harder to learn correctly then VF (and once you get a bad habit it's harder to relearn it then learn the correct responses from scratch). I do, also believe that I would get ripped apart by a good Tekken player who understands it's frames / parries (while I didn't) etc just as I would by a good VF'er who understood it's frames / etc just as I would by some stringmaking (and vf doesn't have lenghty strings shifting between high and low) good player from SC2. I still to this day don't know how to defend myself against someone who do certain things in TekkenTag (like someone just doing 1,1,2 with Heihachi and stopping after 1,1 if none connects) well due to there not being a function and I've played it alot. Has the game learnt me well then with this pow? No. Has vf got smaller frame windows in many cases and has harsh timing in moves? Yes. But I'd rather have a game that learns me well, correctly and just, and premiers me alot (and clearly) at right desicions in a logic system at the end of the day anyways and judge it to be easier to learn cause of just that cause who is ever completly learnt in every aspect in a modern fightinggame? None. No game is that simple and one shouldn't kidd oneself into thinking so.

 

Im just reviewing what was said earlier in this thread and I have some questions and answers

[ QUOTE ]
spotlite said:

since DOA has no dodges and no command throw escapes, this is exactly why it's probably the only feasable online fighter right now.

Spotlite

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be true if Doa Did not have Side stepping, and yes Doa has no command throw escapes to worry about, but there are counter throws that require very good timing to use effectively. If you want I can Explain how it works.

 

Re: Hey:

Methinks KiwE has never been a new player...

 

[ QUOTE ]
KTallguy said:

Here's what I think will happen to DOA online. The 'hardcore tournament players' that don't exist will get killed by scrubs because of lag over a few frames. They will return the game and go back to their circle.


[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make any sense. A skilled opponent would not lose to a scrub even under those conditions. The problem come to light when players of a higher calibur play each other and fall victem to the effects of Lag.

[ QUOTE ]


Then, all the kids that love staring at boobs will play the game online and laugh at their laggy opponents. Strategies will be based on network connection speeds instead of game tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said before new players will still get their asses handed to them(better players will compesate) and make do with the lag. There will be a problem with the higher skilled range.



[/ QUOTE ]

That's ok for DOA because there are no tournaments and that's what was intended, an easy, fun fighting game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are you getting this from? There happen to be Doa tournaments, but its rarely publicized(ie there " WAS " no Doa site that cared to post them, but now there is one.

[ QUOTE ]

However, look at VF. If we apply the same model, all the really good people will leave because lag will screw up their game. Then, all the new players will battle it out online because they think it's the same game. No one will know if they won based on a good strategy or because of lag, because it's probably impossible to tell if there are 2 or 3 frames of lag if you're new at the game. Strats based on network connections will formulate. It'll be stupid, and a waste of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may not be the case at all. Most players outside of Japan rarely have the chance to play other people. Players can use the online options as a Tool to get better, but not exactly as a way to have high level competitions. Players will still have to have Tournaments and gatherings the old fashion way.

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, until they can eliminate all lag from online play, they should NEVER put up online servers for VF. I don't care if it gives people more competition. The competition they will recieve will actually make them WORSE at the game, and when they play in real life, they'll be even MORE frustrated and probably quit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, Anyone who plays Vf faithfully will know that online play will alter Vf's gameplay. so no one will expect a perfect transition. Most people are willing to have deal with slight alteratins to help them be a better player overall. Learning to play Vf online will be no different than learning how to play Vf4evo after learning how to play Vf4 version C. There are big differences but the majority of the skill, tactics and techniques can still be transfered over.

 

After re-reading the thread again, I would like to know
exactly what tactics n techiniques in Vf4evo will be
tremendiously effected by the game being online enabled. Also
would like to know how these techniques n tactics make
Vf4evo much more difficult/complicated than other fighters? n
what skill level is it catered to?

 

Sounds like your on another discrete DOA PR rampagetour again... Hope someone else adresses your questions and answers.

[ QUOTE ]
Methinks KiwE has never been a new player...

[/ QUOTE ]

You'sa stoopid.

 

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:

Sounds like your on another discrete DOA PR rampagetour again... Hope someone else adresses your questions and answers.



[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, Everyone can talk about online play n discuss
Doa n its gameplay(or lack there of), but as soon I discuss
doa and its gameplay I must be on some rampage tour?
Lmao. That makes completely no sense. Again you single me out
for doing what everyone else have done long before me. I must
never talk of doa unless im on some secret spy mission to
convert you to doa players...lol.. you crack me up. thats not
your fault, im a very opionated doa player n my rep is widely
known.

 

By being online enabled, VF would have to do one of two things. Either:

1. Eliminate all possible lag from a match.

2. Make the timing less strict and more loose.

Many of Akira's moves need to be done with strict timing. If there's a little lag, and the input is delayed, then the entire rest of the move won't come out in VF4EVO. Double or triple throw escapes that need to be rapidly entered in a small window won't work if there's a spike. Yes a player can compensate for the lag. Indeed yes. However, lag spikes can still possibly ruin multi-part moves, AND in real play with real people, their timing will be off. The amount of lag changes the timing involved with the game, so you'd have no way to get a rhythm while playing, because one time the timing would be one way, and on a laggier server, it would be another way. If you get used to playing with a little lag, and you play someone IRL, your timing will be off.

If hardcore VF players have their combos ruined by lag, they WILL quit, I don't doubt it. They don't even have to be killed by scrubs. They'll just leave. They wouldn't want their timing and rhythm thrown off by lag. Even so, it's not difficult to tap buttons with Jacky, and if a skilled player who is trying to kill a scrub is interrupted by lag, they'll never play online again.

Itagaki has been quoted as saying that DOA isn't meant to be a tournament fighting game. I'll try to find it but I don't remember where it is, regardless the amount of people that play DOA for tournaments is too small to really care about.

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, Anyone who plays Vf faithfully will know that online play will alter Vf's gameplay. so no one will expect a perfect transition.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Why should people who have put a ton of time into a game be forced to re-learn the game. Let VF5 do that.

2. You honestly think that online play, in a game with such tight timing like VF, will make you better. Unless lag is eliminated, A: your moves will come out late, B: your moves that require strict timing (catch throws, combos) will not work.

[ QUOTE ]
Learning to play Vf online will be no different than learning how to play Vf4evo after learning how to play Vf4 version C.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, maybe. But why be completely handicapped in real life after playing online all day. If you really want to come down to it, there will probably end up being people who either play online all the time, or play offline all the time. Guess who's gonna win if they play eachother offline? And guess where tournaments are held?

 

[ QUOTE ]
..If hardcore VF players have their combos ruined by lag, they WILL quit, I don't doubt it.....You honestly think that online play, in a game with such tight timing like VF, will make you better.... But why be completely handicapped in real life after playing online all day. If you really want to come down to it, there will probably end up being people who either play online all the time, or play offline all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Holds up Armageddon is here!* sign and drinks from his bottle.

 

Congratulations Ktallguy for being the 4th or 5th player to point out that lag sucks. Want a cookie?

How will lag make your control inputs somehow not work? If you think about it, even on OLD fps/rts games with crappy network code, all of your inputs still registered with the same delay inbetween, even if it took a while for it to get to the server. For example, you press the fire button and a second later you press it again, and by the time it makes it to the server it will do the same thing. First shot will arrive at the server, and a second later (barring a lag-spike or something) the second shot will arrive.

If they even make a half-assed attempt at net-code, the game will STILL register your OWN inputs just the same as if you were playing offline. There's no reason why lag should make 'the knee' un-doable.

BTW, KiwE, where have I even mentioned DOA at all? Musta missed that part where I praised the game. In another thread I said Soulcalibur was almost as good as VF, but I dont recall mentioning DOA anywhere on this site.

Besides, you want to tell me that the only reason people can't learn VF quickly is because they're too lazy or they aren't spending enough time? It's bull: Contrary to popular suspicion, it actually is not that easy to learn. Consider the beginner's basics, like techrolling. It takes a while to be able to techroll consistantly, when you want to. Combos aren't very readily accessible to new players either, because the game lacks alot of 'canned' combos. Everything has to be kinda figured out by trial and error, and until you learn at least a few combos, you'll get your ass eaten by the CPU on the lowest difficulties. Even then, knowing the combos isn't enough: One of VF's biggest strengths is also it's biggest turn-offs to new players: Combo starters are almost ALWAYS risky. For alot of the characters, you have to commit to a big move to get that combo started, and there's a lot of work that goes into knowing WHEN to do that combo starter.

Now, just so that I dont make other games sound cheap: I think SC2 does have easier combo starters. For *almost* every character. This adds in a form of balance, when each character has at least a decent (not great, and usually very punishable by experienced players) juggle/combo starter. So a new player can pick it up and proceed to do fairly well against the CPU.

I feel that is a pretty good way to tell how hard a game is. I started playin VF4:Evo and SC2 at about the same time, and really felt that SC2 was LOADS easier to pick up and go with. Even against my friends, we had some very good matches after only a month or so of playing. VF, on the other hand, I played by myself for like 3 weeks before I even heard of the VF players in columbus, and when I met them they all collectively handed my ass to me. I was lucky to win a round, much less an entire match, and my record of 3/100 that first weekend proved it. Also of note is that I put more time into VF than I did SC2 at that point in time.

So, continue to deny that VF is hard. YOu can say that the people who say it's harder are just lazy, incompetent bums. But we're all seeing how blinded you are to the truth: Your baby game isn't really as great as you crack it out to be.